RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important?

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Sanity -> RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? (7/1/2011 5:47:52 AM)
No, I am not suggesting we need all Democrat juries deciding sentences, not at all. Rather, such decisions can and should consider the circumstances of the crime, such as whether or not the crime is especially heinous in whole or in part because of who the chosen victim was. quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania So, we should now sentence people based upon how emotionally upsetting a crime is? We should let our emotional states dictate justice? I thought we had a court system to give justice a less emotional edge, and Lady Justice is supposed to be blind. In other words, justice is supposed to be not meted out based upon our human prejudices.

JstAnotherSub -> RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? (7/1/2011 6:28:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: WyldHrt Should they be? No. Unfortunately, reality is often far from the way things should be. Yeah, I noticed that on another thread that is going on right now. I think sometimes people think of babies and they forget everything else because it is abhorrent to hurt someone so helpless. It is hard to sometimes see beyond that to other things, like elements of a crime, etc etc etc. We almost never hear anyone argue for prostitutes.... many of them being children, also. I suppose it is true that you never hear anyone who is a civilian argue for prostitutes and the other so-called dregs of society. There is kind of a "well they asked for it" mentality in many. I am thankful that homicide investigators do not feel this way. No matter who was murdered, they seek justice for the victim and their family. Of course, this pertains to the homicide investigators that I am aware of, some I know personally, which is sad as hell in its self, and some I know of from being a First 48 junkie. I do not speak about the thousands I have never seen in action.

Marc2b -> RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? (7/1/2011 7:09:12 AM)
I do not believe that the government should engage in an unnecessary discrimination against its citizens. This is one of the reasons why I am opposed to the whole notion of “Hate Crimes.” Why should the person who murders me receive a lesser sentence than another murderer just because I am not gay or black? My life is as valuable to me as anyone else and who the fuck is the government to declare it less worthy because I am the wrong skin color or poke my people maker into the wrong holes? It is certainly appropriate in the investigation and trial phases of a murder to examine people’s possible motivations. If a black man is murdered there is nothing wrong with the police talking to well known klan members for example but once the trial is over it is a different matter. Once the guilty verdict is in all murderers, as far as I’m concerned, should be sentenced to life in prison with no possibility of parole. It should not matter if the victim was black or white, gay or straight, male of female, rich or poor, tall or short, nun or whore, cop or drug dealer, two years old or one hundred and two years old. Society’s official message to the murderer should be: “You have taken the life of a fellow human being… and we abjure you.” SilverMark makes a good point that every case will not fit into a neat black and white package. We see in gray and that’s why we have the mish-mash of laws, rules and judgments we have now. What do we do about the case of the long abused woman lashing out at her abuser? Well, in such cases it is a question of whether or not it is murder. A murder is a homicide but a homicide isn’t necessarily a murder. There is such a thing as justifiable homicide. Self defense is obviously one. Being a mental and emotional wreck because you’ve had your head bashed around for twenty years could be another (and a case for self defense can be made here as well).

Sanity -> RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? (7/1/2011 7:15:38 AM)
Though some people cant defend themselves, which is where I take exception quote: Self defense is obviously one. Being a mental and emotional wreck because you’ve had your head bashed around for twenty years could be another (and a case for self defense can be made here as well).

Marc2b -> RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? (7/1/2011 7:27:51 AM)
quote: Though some people cant defend themselves, which is where I take exception I don't understand. A person who cannot defend themself is likely to be the murder victim, not the accused murderer.

juliaoceania -> RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? (7/1/2011 7:30:24 AM)
quote: SilverMark makes a good point that every case will not fit into a neat black and white package. We see in gray and that’s why we have the mish-mash of laws, rules and judgments we have now. What do we do about the case of the long abused woman lashing out at her abuser? Well, in such cases it is a question of whether or not it is murder. A murder is a homicide but a homicide isn’t necessarily a murder. There is such a thing as justifiable homicide. Self defense is obviously one. Being a mental and emotional wreck because you’ve had your head bashed around for twenty years could be another (and a case for self defense can be made here as well). But those things go directly to intent and motive, which are elements of a crime. Those are the things we want to know before charging someone..

lockedaway -> RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? (7/1/2011 7:33:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania I was contemplating something, and that is how valuable human life is and how we decide which human life is valuable and which isn't... I wanted to ask a question, do you think that it matters who is murdered when assessing a sentence for a murderer? In other words, do age, gender, or socioeconomic class of a murder victim somehow mean more prison time for the person who committed the crime... Forget the kind of murder it is, just looking at the victim of the crime alone, do you think there are some people that matter more than others? Jesus Julia....you are SUCH a bleeding heart. Of course it doesn't make any difference who is murdered. Neither gender nor race nor age nor ethnicity should play a role and it doesn't. The only thing that matters is the criminal act and whether there are factors that mitigate the circumstances of the crime like extreme provocation, mutual combatants, etc. i don't even include self defense because it is so axiomatic. But here is why I call you a bleeding heart. Human life is not precious. Some of it is but that is a narrow population. Yes, the Edison's the Saulks, the Pope John Paul II's, the Christs, the Ghandis, the Marconis of the world have all made invaluable contributions to human life and I would submit to you that their lives were all indeed precious. The next group are the people that basically just live their lives. They are independent, they are law abiding, they contribute to the general scheme that makes society run and they have a value to the community. Certainly, their lives are deeply precious to the small circle they impact on; friends, family, business people, etc. But outside of that sphere of influence, they are to their government and to the rest of the world.......a number. The next are the people that basically just live but they take from the general scheme that makes society run and so they are an anchor to society. Ok...they get by, they don't really live independently because they need a constant handout, perhaps they are law abiding, perhaps not so much. They exist. They eat, live, breed, shit and sleep and they take more than they are entitled to. Are they "precious". Fuck no. It is just.......................................life. The next group of people are those whose lives are antithetical to human life; murderers, drug pushers, extortionists, pedophiles, rapists, genocidal dictators, serial killers. Clearly, this group is an extreme and, just like the lives that are admittedly precious because of their contributions you would think that the number of this opposing side of the spectrum would be just as narrow. It is not. This extreme makes up a fairly large percentage of our population. Are they "precious"? No...and when I am at the court house and I hear of one of these people ending up dead in the bathroom or thrown off of a tier, I am not the only one that shrugs and says "eh....one less to deal with." No...the judge does, the bailiffs do, the court staff does and more. Precious life is precious because of its rarity. In order to become precious, it takes a great deal of work and self actualization. People have to craft themselves into something precious and that just doesn't happen all that often. Most life is exactly that.........life.

DarkSteven -> RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? (7/1/2011 7:34:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven Of course some people are worth more than others. Salaries and net worth are two ways of gauging worth monetarily. So if a guy murders a mother of 5 and a CEO, the sentence for the CEO should be more? I didn't explain myself well. There are various gauges by which "worth" can be determined. Money is one. In your case, you used another one altogether - how many people a person is directly supporting/influencing at the time.

Sanity -> RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? (7/1/2011 7:36:44 AM)
Say, two big stupid apes fighting to the death vs. one big ape savagely beating a much smaller primate to death... Two different crimes, with differing shades of gray quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b quote: Though some people cant defend themselves, which is where I take exception I don't understand. A person who cannot defend themself is likely to be the murder victim, not the accused murderer.

Marc2b -> RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? (7/1/2011 7:38:47 AM)
quote: But those things go directly to intent and motive, which are elements of a crime. Those are the things we want to know before charging someone.. Yes. I said that such things are appropriate in both the investigation phase and (if charges are laid) the trial phase. But once a guilty verdict for murder has been rendered, we should not discriminate either in favor of or against the victim becaue society judges them to be more or less valuable than others.

juliaoceania -> RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? (7/1/2011 7:39:54 AM)
quote: But here is why I call you a bleeding heart. Human life is not precious. I am wondering, where did I claim it was "precious" on this thread? I happen to think it is, but that isn't what this thread is about[8\|]

juliaoceania -> RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? (7/1/2011 7:42:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b quote: But those things go directly to intent and motive, which are elements of a crime. Those are the things we want to know before charging someone.. Yes. I said that such things are appropriate in both the investigation phase and (if charges are laid) the trial phase. But once a guilty verdict for murder has been rendered, we should not discriminate either in favor of or against the victim becaue society judges them to be more or less valuable than others. Unfortunately, we do.... you see it happen every day.

lockedaway -> RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? (7/1/2011 7:53:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: But here is why I call you a bleeding heart. Human life is not precious. I am wondering, where did I claim it was "precious" on this thread? I happen to think it is, but that isn't what this thread is about[8\|] Wow...ok...read your own thread. Read the first line about "how valuable human life is". Value has to be defined. You know Julia, you can be very frustrating for anyone who charges by the hour.

Marc2b -> RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? (7/1/2011 7:55:22 AM)
quote: Say, two big stupid apes fighting to the death vs. one big ape savagely beating a much smaller primate to death... Two different crimes, with differing shades of gray I still don't understand what you're asking. In the first example, it depends upon who was the attacker. If the attacker ends up dead then it is a case of self defense. If the attacked ends up dead then it is a case of murder. In the second example, someone being savegly beaten to death would seem to be a pretty straight forward case of murder. Even if the smaller primate was the attacker, being attacked is not a blank check to kill. If someone takes a swing at me and I pound him enough so that he is lying on the ground unconscious... I don't have leave to grab my gun and put a bullet in his brain. Once the attack is stop, the situation changes. Sorting these things out is why we have investigations and trials. Once a guilty verdict is reached, however, I see no reason to treat one murderer differently from another just because victim X is a elderly wheelchair bound nun who takes care of hungry orphaned girl scouts and victim Y is pediphile drug dealer. This is not because I don't feel more outrage against the murderer of the nun than against the murderer of the pedo-creep... it is because I don't want the government deciding whose life is more valuable. Once we allow that, who is to say they won't later decide that persons of political party X or religion Y are more valuable than others?

mnottertail -> RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? (7/1/2011 7:56:41 AM)
The value of an american dollar bill is one american dollar. It is not precious. Water is precious, my child is precious, my guns are valuable. One does not imply another. So, your imputation is far short of validity.

Iamsemisweet -> RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? (7/1/2011 7:57:16 AM)
Yes, I think some people are more valuable than others, no I don't think that should be a factor in sentencing a murderer. Justice is blind. Well, not really, but it should be.

Marc2b -> RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? (7/1/2011 7:57:23 AM)
quote: Unfortunately, we do.... you see it happen every day. I know, but I am opposed to it... even though I know I am just a drop of water shouting against the ocean tide.

JstAnotherSub -> RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? (7/1/2011 8:14:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lockedaway snip But here is why I call you a bleeding heart. Human life is not precious. Some of it is but that is a narrow population. Yes, the Edison's the Saulks, the Pope John Paul II's, the Christs, the Ghandis, the Marconis of the world have all made invaluable contributions to human life and I would submit to you that their lives were all indeed precious. The next group are the people that basically just live their lives. They are independent, they are law abiding, they contribute to the general scheme that makes society run and they have a value to the community. Certainly, their lives are deeply precious to the small circle they impact on; friends, family, business people, etc. But outside of that sphere of influence, they are to their government and to the rest of the world.......a number. The next are the people that basically just live but they take from the general scheme that makes society run and so they are an anchor to society. Ok...they get by, they don't really live independently because they need a constant handout, perhaps they are law abiding, perhaps not so much. They exist. They eat, live, breed, shit and sleep and they take more than they are entitled to. Are they "precious". Fuck no. It is just.......................................life. The next group of people are those whose lives are antithetical to human life; murderers, drug pushers, extortionists, pedophiles, rapists, genocidal dictators, serial killers. Clearly, this group is an extreme and, just like the lives that are admittedly precious because of their contributions you would think that the number of this opposing side of the spectrum would be just as narrow. It is not. This extreme makes up a fairly large percentage of our population. Are they "precious"? No...and when I am at the court house and I hear of one of these people ending up dead in the bathroom or thrown off of a tier, I am not the only one that shrugs and says "eh....one less to deal with." No...the judge does, the bailiffs do, the court staff does and more. Precious life is precious because of its rarity. In order to become precious, it takes a great deal of work and self actualization. People have to craft themselves into something precious and that just doesn't happen all that often. Most life is exactly that.........life. So, someone murders your mom, dad, child, pick one, and since they are not someone who changed the world, the loss of their life is not as big a loss because they are not as precious as say, Mother Theresa?

slaveluci -> RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? (7/1/2011 8:28:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheHeretic I do think the nature of the victim matters. There is something especially heinous in the murder of a helpless innocent. Yes. The life of the toddler playing on the front porch is worth more than the life of the useless gangbanger the other useless gangbangers missed, when they killed the kid. Who was once a helpless innocent himself. This is why I have a hard time thinking it's acceptable for anyone to be murdered, even by the state. Everyone was a helpless innocent at one point and I can't help but see that. Some people make conscious choices to stop being innocent by hurting others, gangbanging, etc. but it's a long complex road that leads people to where they end up. I'm not saying it's ever OK to then commit random acts of violence which would then hurt those who are still innocent but I can't judge with the harshness that some others can by looking at someone and declaring them not worthy of living anymore. That's not up to me and frankly it's not up to any of you. Sadly, many think it is. I'm not defending the heinous acts people do. I'm simply saying I don't think we should be the ultimate judge of who lives and dies....luci

juliaoceania -> RE: Murder Victims - Who is More Important? (7/1/2011 8:32:17 AM)
quote: Wow...ok...read your own thread. Read the first line about "how valuable human life is". Value has to be defined. You know Julia, you can be very frustrating for anyone who charges by the hour. I never assigned value as being "precious"... stop putting words into my posts that are not there.... If you want to join the discussion and answer with your opinion, great! If you just want to assign a position to me that I have not taken on this thread, I am not interested in your posts... State YOUR position, not mine

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