RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating themselves about safety?

RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating themselves about safety? (Full Version)

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LillyBoPeep -> RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating themselves about safety? (6/22/2011 5:28:45 AM)
personally, i think you should. when i go to demos/events, i pay just as much attention even though i don't ever plan to be the one doing any of it to anyone. i'll ask questions and get information i can share. in my previous relationship, if either of us mentioned we wanted to try something, we both went and researched it -- i was basically his second set of hands in those instances. that was just how we were. so yes, i do think bottoms need to be aware of safety. honestly, i probably wouldn't be a good match for someone who wanted to be the Domly Keeper of All Knowledge, or who wasn't interested in having conversations or reading about stuff together, because that's just how my brain works -- i love information. i agree with VaguelyCurious on the RACK point -- that's the one i mostly apply. if i'm going to bottom for it, i need to be aware of the risks, just as much as the Top.

HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating themselves about safety? (6/22/2011 5:35:56 AM)
I agree with that DesFIP. That is pretty much my approach, With the exception that me being me, and having lots of free time, I do a lot of the research and collate my findings for Hanners rather than just sending her links to consider.

SpiritedRadiance -> RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating themselves about safety? (6/22/2011 6:06:07 AM)
I research to the best of my ability, but, If im at a party and I see something Ive never tried and dont know much about, I ask about the person doing it. With several members of the community I will try anything they ask me to because I know they arent going to do it with out knowing how I trust them in ways I dont trust most people because I watch how they play and their styles. I usually watch a scene of something (needles being the biggest thing) then negotiate a scene with the person doing it how I enjoy it. I also dont believe ANYONE boasting any years of experience off the bat, I ask them questions that prove it, and if they say they were a presenter at this convention or were at this event doing this. I Email Mama Vi and Ask if someone can research it before I play with them. Why? Because if they did it there will be proof of it 99.9% in that library.

LadyPact -> RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating themselves about safety? (6/22/2011 10:19:21 AM)
Using fast reply. I've said this on a number of threads. I am a RACK player. (Risk Aware Consensual Kink) The fact that I'm a top doesn't change My opinion on this between RACK and SSC. I honestly feel that bottoms need to approach their play in this manner. There's no more simplistic way to put it. That is your ass on the line. You need to know if what you are consenting to is being done properly or not. It's great to trust your top. At the same time, if your top is doing something that is increasing the risk to your personal safety, don't you think you need to know about that? Bottoms, you should be sitting in the very same classes, demos, and lectures that your tops are attending. You should have just as much education on the play that you are participating in as they do. Not knowing the risks can be a damn high price. Being a person who enjoys fire play, I knew how the story was going to turn out before I even finished. That didn't have to happen. It wouldn't have happened had either of the parties made the investment of learning about the safety. One more and then I'll get off the soapbox. It totally gets under My skin when somebody is conducting unsafe play and the thing that comes out of their mouth is that they've been doing it for years. I don't give a damn how long you've been lucky. If you're a top, you're rolling the dice with somebody else's hide. You'd better be able to live with the harm or disfigurement that you're going to cause, because I sure as hell couldn't.

HannahLynHeather -> RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating themselves about safety? (6/22/2011 10:27:00 AM)
i would consider asking somebody doing something at a party to be valid research, possibly among the most fucking valid form of research. after all that's pretty much how the fuckers who write the books and websites get their info. and you get the advantage of instant fucking interactivity. the second paragraph is also fucking spot on. they aren't local, but there are a few folks i'd agree to do pretty much anything they wanted to with, because i know they are both knowledgeable (so likely to know what they are doing) and fucking trustworthy (not likely to pretend to knowledge). ladyp and fire play is an example, i'm leery of fire play, i'm somewhat scared of fire (not an fucking unreasonable position given the story in the op), but i'm pretty fucking sure i'd go for it with her for the above stated reasons. and i agree with the third paragraph as well. just because some fuck's been weilding a fucking a whip for 20 years doesn't mean he's been doing it right. so i ask questions as well. as kalikshama mentioned in her post a ways back, this is simply a fucking common sense survival technique for a pro-sub. i'm not into the community, so i wouldn't be using that resource, but it sounds to me like a damn good bullshit separator.

DesFIP -> RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating themselves about safety? (6/22/2011 11:05:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather I agree with that DesFIP. That is pretty much my approach, With the exception that me being me, and having lots of free time, I do a lot of the research and collate my findings for Hanners rather than just sending her links to consider. The difference here is that he doesn't want me to summarize the highlights for him, he wants to know he's learned all about it. So I find the articles for him as he isn't good at doing that.

Wolf2Bear -> RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating themselves about safety? (6/22/2011 11:16:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LinnaeaBorealis What say you? Do you tend to abdicate responsibility when in a scene? Do you expect the top to do all the research & have all the information on what is safe & what isn't? Or do you do your own research also? My approach is when I bottom in any type of scene, I do the research and ensure I make myself informed to whatever activity I will be engaging in. Granted the top I am demoing for is well experienced, that still doesn't give me a "personal responsibility avoidance" card. Plus it also shows the Top/Dom I am playing with that I am responsible and I am indirectly not placing them in a harmful situation when I am taking direct responsibility for myself. When it comes to what is safe and what isn't, that is where the top and myself discuss prior to playing as their definition may not be in sync with mine and we need to reach a mutual agreement before either one of us scenes together.

MistressDarkArt -> RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating themselves about safety? (6/22/2011 11:19:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi I think anyone who plays on either side should educate themselves as much as possible. Me too. And I take time to educate my partner as well as I can on something that may be brand new to him. Case-in-point: electro. I explain the physics and the ways I will safely use it as well as give him links that are the best possible source I can find for safe electro play to study up on. Only then will I bring out the box.

juliaoceania -> RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating themselves about safety? (6/22/2011 11:26:05 AM)
quote: What say you? Do you tend to abdicate responsibility when in a scene? Do you expect the top to do all the research & have all the information on what is safe & what isn't? Or do you do your own research also? I have a lot of common sense. I know a little about safety. I know a lot about how to pick safe people to involve myself with. I do not play casually either. I really do believe there is no absolute safe way to do a dangerous thing. I would only involve myself with people who seek to mitigate risks. I may or may not want to learn about an activity personally before engaging in it. There are some sorts of play I have deemed too dangerous, and I will not engage in them. Fire play is one of those sorts of edgy games I do not want to engage in. If I am in a long term relationship with someone, then I trust them to keep me safe. I do not know if I would take special pains to learn about all of the risks, but I know I would trust that my partner had before he put me in any sort of position. I would want him to discuss the risks with me, so I would have an idea of what I was consenting to.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating themselves about safety? (6/22/2011 11:37:48 AM)
In the story Naysha's referring to, the gal said that she was "deep in subspace" or some such thing. Regardless, if you are lying down, you can't SEE what tomfoolery your top is up to. How could she have known that he figured that a whole cupping cup FULL of alcohol was a good idea? I do think that bottoms need to know WTF is going on. How can you judge if some top you want to play with is really good, or just showboating? Is that person offering to show you your blood using the right precautions? Trust will only take you so far. I am glad to say that I have never needed more than a bandaid out of my first aid kit. That isn't due to LUCK, either.

juliaoceania -> RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating themselves about safety? (6/22/2011 11:45:04 AM)
quote: I do think that bottoms need to know WTF is going on. How can you judge if some top you want to play with is really good, or just showboating? Is that person offering to show you your blood using the right precautions? Trust will only take you so far. I am glad to say that I have never needed more than a bandaid out of my first aid kit. That isn't due to LUCK, either. For me it is called knowing the person's character, I do not play casually. I am not attracted to people who preen. The type of men I find myself attracted to are usually self deprecating on their abilities and when you get to know them they are extremely able. Like one dom I was with would say "When you lower expectations, it makes you look like a hero when you exceed them". When someone says "I have 20 years lifestyle experience" I take that shit with more than a grain of salt. I am not a reference person either. I have no problem "learning together", but in my reality if the man is more concerned about looking like an expert rather than being concerned about my welfare... I am going to pick up on that way before they ever get close enough to me to be standing over my prostrated body. For people who like to play casually, it would be much harder to discern whether someone was them as a guinea pig

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating themselves about safety? (6/22/2011 11:49:46 AM)
So many people DO play casually, though, and get alll excited about the playing. And, the burnt gal was actually friends with her playmate, and still is. So, I think that ignorance is just not a defense. I have seen too much misplaced trust.

juliaoceania -> RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating themselves about safety? (6/22/2011 11:55:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus So many people DO play casually, though, and get alll excited about the playing. And, the burnt gal was actually friends with her playmate, and still is. So, I think that ignorance is just not a defense. I have seen too much misplaced trust. If a sub is flying it is unreasonable to expect that they could regulate a scene. So trust has to be acquired at some point. I think it would be useful from a negotiation standpoint to know what was going on, so when you negotiate the scene you are not ignorant about what is going to be done. You can discern a little more if the person has the knowledge necessary to accomplish the deed, or if they are full of crap.

LillyBoPeep -> RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating themselves about safety? (6/22/2011 12:03:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania If a sub is flying it is unreasonable to expect that they could regulate a scene. So trust has to be acquired at some point. I think it would be useful from a negotiation standpoint to know what was going on, so when you negotiate the scene you are not ignorant about what is going to be done. You can discern a little more if the person has the knowledge necessary to accomplish the deed, or if they are full of crap. that's very true. knowing a little about what's going to happen makes you a better negotiator, too, at least in my opinion. otherwise, if you really don't know what's going on, like the chick in the OP, you won't know if this person who seems to know what they're doing really does. i've never run a fire cupping scene, but i know not to douse the inside of a cupping glass.

sexisubi -> RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating themselves about safety? (6/22/2011 2:33:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LinnaeaBorealis What say you? Do you tend to abdicate responsibility when in a scene? Do you expect the top to do all the research & have all the information on what is safe & what isn't? Or do you do your own research also? ...I say safety is important but its silly to assume that anyone knows what anyone else's limits are or what they are thinking. ...No I enjoy it and show my enjoyment, and if i don't enjoy it i show that too... if it gets too rough safeword -softly- at first so that the scene can continue.... and get louder if not stopped. ...just because one person did their research doesn't mean they didn't miss something, two heads are better then one, if we're partners in life were partners in responsibly... which ever one speaks to you thats my opinion in a nut shell :) ...

IrishMist -> RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating themselves about safety? (6/22/2011 2:46:58 PM)
Just because someone tells you that they know what they are doing, does not mean that they know what they are doing. If something goes wrong, and your only excuse is 'but, I trusted him to know what he was doing'...I say that you don't need to be attempting anything. Not the top...YOU. You, and only you, are responsible for your own safety. If you choose to share that responsibility with another...good...but that does not absolve you from your own. My late husband and I, we played hard. Very hard; to the point that there was always blood, bruises, sometimes broken bones...MOST times, I ended up unconscious. Never did I ever say to myself "ok, I trust him to know what he's doing'. Our interactions were so primal and so violent...that believing that 'he knew what he was doing' in the heat of the moment...was no different that putting a loaded gun to my head and hoping that it jamms. Did I trust him? Absolutely. So much so that I was very aware of the risks we were taking. Adults take responsibility for themselves in ALL situations. They take responsibility for their actions; they do not pass that responsibility off to someone else simply because it's convienent to do so.

sexyred1 -> RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating themselves about safety? (6/22/2011 3:00:28 PM)
I had a problem with my ex. I knew much more than he did on everything, including BDSM practices. I was his very first sub. I would suggest things, he would love them and want to try them or he would suggest things and I would try them. The problem was, that he found his inner sadist and as time went on, years and years, he would do more intense and dangerous play and when I would voice my concerns over how they were done, he said he would listen to get me to do them. But once we were DOING them, he did not pay enough attention and I actually ended up in the hospital with something serious once. I know he did not do it on purpose to hurt me that bad, but shit happens. I thought that would have scared him silly; he was really upset. But once I was healed, he still wanted to do the same thing to me that put me in the hospital. He never did any research despite what I told him about safety. It was all about how hot and intense the feelings were for him. I was like a doll that even if it was dropped and broken, he thought it would return back to normal after the session was over. It got to the point where I refused to be in any type of bondage so I could stop whatever was going on that I felt was dangerous. So having the knowledge yourself is not enough. You need to be with a partner who listens to you. I just could never trust him again. He did not and to this day he still says, but, but, baby, it was an accident. I love you, can we do it again? It was so hot!!! NO. No. and No.

SylvereApLeanan -> RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating themselves about safety? (6/22/2011 3:09:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact I honestly feel that bottoms need to approach their play in this manner. There's no more simplistic way to put it. That is your ass on the line. You need to know if what you are consenting to is being done properly or not. It's great to trust your top. At the same time, if your top is doing something that is increasing the risk to your personal safety, don't you think you need to know about that? Bottoms, you should be sitting in the very same classes, demos, and lectures that your tops are attending. You should have just as much education on the play that you are participating in as they do. Not knowing the risks can be a damn high price. There she goes, saving me keystrokes again.

ThundersCry -> RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating themselves about safety? (6/22/2011 3:11:57 PM)
Great question! I THOUGHT I was educated from certain experience that I knew what to do and was I wrong in a good way...in a bad way,untill one day yellow could not get out of my mouth quick enough! -L- My pride got in the way during most scenes...to safe out was not happin`. ANd that can be ok to a certain point dedending on who you are and how much you trust your d/s... I knew nothing of safe and did not care..the more the edgy the better... IF YOU don`t know the Top all the much, I would not hesitate to use a safe word, if you have a gut sense this is getting to ne to much. Although its about processing each scene, I like play better <g>...that WILL make you grow! I was say use caution, unless its with me, toss the caution into the wind....tsk tsk

kalikshama -> RE: Should bottoms/subs be responsible for educating themselves about safety? (6/22/2011 3:30:00 PM)
Sexyred's post reminds me of a dominant friend I had who would have made a great Dom if not for his drinking problem. He did something really hot (and dangerous) and the next day I gave him a lecture. He never did that again, nor do I ever allow anyone who has been drinking to use anything other than what he was born with.

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