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Legal Issues concerning LTR slaves - 6/20/2011 12:00:31 PM   
Fetters4U


Posts: 393
Joined: 5/25/2011
Status: offline 		I have been wondering about the legal issues of owning a non-working, non-spousal, LTR slave in the USA. There may well be a good document/book about this somewhere that I have overlooked. This is only idle curiosity on my part since this is not my thing. Go easy on me, okay.

I am assuming the Master/Mistress cares about the slave, and has their best interest at heart. I am also assuming that you plan to obey the laws of the land and pay all due taxes. There are two main areas of issue: when one of you gets sick, and when one of you dies.

Naturally, if you marry your slave, all the normal spousal protections apply, so little else is needed. However, if for whatever reason you cannot or do not marry, the slave has zero legal standing, and neither do you. Without the right documents, you may not even be able to visit them in hospital.

Here are some thoughts to make a basis for discussion:
  • For tax and inheritance reasons, it is probably better not to transfer slave funds to your accounts. You need a durable power of attorney to manage their funds for them.
  •  Who has your durable power of attorney? If you are unable to function for a period of time, who will care for your slaves? (Your Mom, who does not approve of your lifestyle, would be well within her rights to evict them and has no obligation to buy them food, etc.)
  •  You need a medical directive, so you can make their medical decisions.
  •  Who makes your medical decisions? Will your slave(s) have visitation rights and access to medical information? (Will your Mom honor your wishes?)
  •  The slave needs a will. You need to be the executor. You need to be in charge of funeral arrangements. You need to protect what might be seen as common property.
  •  You need at least a will. If you do not want your slave to fall prey to a greedy and unscrupulous Master/Mistress after you have gone, you might be better off with a living trust and appoint trustees. A single trust could handle multiple benefactors.
  • Note on wills: If there is any significant funds involved, having non-relatives inherit without relatives challenging, means you need a video to back it up.
  • For inheritance reasons, both to stop challenges and to avoid taxation, could you legally adopt your slaves?
  • Does a non-working, non-spousal slave need health insurance, to protect their and your assets?
  • What about life insurance?
  • What about liability insurance?
  • Should slaves have IRA accounts, Roths etc.?
  • Is there any way for a non-spousal slave to collect your pension?
  • What have I forgotten?
And some common law questions...

Suppose you have cohabited for a long time with one slave you could marry, but you did not marry them and you live in a common law state. How do you circumvent common law marriage laws?
  • Should your slave be a benefactor on your pension (as your common law spouse)?
  • Can you have a common-law pre-nup?
  • If the slave gets pissed at you and leaves, are they entitled to half your possessions?
  • Suppose your slave dies. Could the slave's next of kin sue you for half your possessions?
  • If the slave has no health insurance, no money, and runs up huge medical bills, can the hospital come after you for the money?
  • If the slave injures someone, can they come after your assets?
  • What have I forgotten?
  Hmmm....

_____________________________

Male-Dom-Straight

A dame that knows the ropes isn't likely to get tied up. -- Mae West
I like restraint, if it doesn't go too far. -- Mae West

To err is human; to edit, divine...
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RE: Legal Issues concerning LTR slaves - 6/20/2011 12:28:37 PM   
peppermint


Posts: 5175
Joined: 10/18/2005
From: Montana
Status: offline
quote:

Suppose you have cohabited for a long time with one slave you could marry, but you did not marry them and you live in a common law state. How do you circumvent common law marriage laws?


Great post on a topic that is very important for many.  I did go to a seminar in WA about how to set up a household and how one's will should be written to protect everyone.  I don't remember all the answers but I am certain that the answers vary from state to state. 

To answer the question above, I researched Montana laws on common law marriage.  To be married we would have to present ourselves as married, or have the intention of being married some day.  We make sure people know we are not married and have no intention of marrying ever. 

(in reply to Fetters4U)
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RE: Legal Issues concerning LTR slaves - 6/20/2011 2:20:54 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		State laws vary so wildly that you need to consult a lawyer who specializes in marital law in that state.

But obviously the easiest way to make sure your s type can visit you in the hospital, make sure your medical decisions are followed, etc is for them to be the one named in your medical directives. That they have durable power of attorney for when you fall ill. That your will specifically states you are leaving only token memorabilia to your family and everything else to your partner of many years.

As far as assuming an unscrupulous next partner will steal all her assets, the same could be said of your next partner stealing all of yours which includes her earnings you took from her.

Not to mention the ethics of demanding someone live in your house, do all your housework for you, but not pay her a fair wage for the work and at the same time preventing them from earning a living then or in the future by keeping them off the job market and unable to compete. Assuming that she can get any kind of job after ten years at home.

But if you don't want a person to be considered your partner under the law, then you don't live with them for years on end. After all, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, etc then do expect everyone to consider it a duck.

< Message edited by DesFIP -- 6/20/2011 2:24:05 PM >

_____________________________

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Cynical and proud of it!


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RE: Legal Issues concerning LTR slaves - 6/20/2011 3:07:09 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fetters4U
What have I forgotten?

I think you've forgotten that your building a long term relationship here. This sounds more like you're buying a slave off the block and wondering how to protect yourself legally.

Insofar as all your "shoulds", the answer is "it depends". It depends on how you personally see the words "responsibility" and "accountability".

If you think an unmarried partner has "zero legal standing" then you seriously need to get with a family law practitioner in your local jurisdiction. That was certainly NOT how it was in California.


_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Fetters4U)
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RE: Legal Issues concerning LTR slaves - 6/20/2011 3:18:13 PM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		The laws on all these matters vary A LOT from state to state, so really, only a lawyer in the state where you reside can answer that question.  In most states, for example, the concept of a common law marriage has been replaced by quasi marital relationships of various names,  wherein if you hold yourself out as married, it is an EXCLUSIVE relationship (listen up, poly people), and mingle accounts, then whatever dom rel scheme applies in that state could apply to your relationship.  That leaves a lot of discretion to the judge, which is not a good situation.  The real, true bottom line here is that in the absence of a specific, written agreement, in which both parties are represented by independent counsel, ALL bets are off and all property is before the court.  In short - get an agreement written.  Do it according to the laws of whatever state you reside.  

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to leadership527)
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RE: Legal Issues concerning LTR slaves - 6/20/2011 4:18:45 PM   
Fetters4U


Posts: 393
Joined: 5/25/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
I think you've forgotten that your building a long term relationship here. This sounds more like you're buying a slave off the block and wondering how to protect yourself legally.

I am not doing anything except seeking knowledge. I am not interested-in nor capable-of owning a slave. Forgive me if I state my points dispassionately, in present company,  I do not feel qualified to voice an opinion.

I think most of my points protect both master and slave or at least illustrate that a decision needs to be made. There is only one point that I consider pro-master, and at least four that are pro-slave. Whether one gets ones slave off the block or wins them in a poker game, they are still your responsibility. You need to see a lawyer, a preacher, or both.
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
Insofar as all your "shoulds", the answer is "it depends". It depends on how you personally see the words "responsibility" and "accountability".

Since you ask, yes, I see the Master as being responsible for the slaves continued financial well-being, but I am not a Master. It is how you and others here see it that really counts, both Master and slave. From what I have read of your wonderful postings, I feel sure that you have protected Carol in every possible way. What do you personally think?
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
If you think an unmarried partner has "zero legal standing" then you seriously need to get with a family law practitioner in your local jurisdiction. That was certainly NOT how it was in California.

California is enlightened in many ways. However, a same sex slave in a non gay marriage state has not much chance of winning a fair settlement. Also, I have not ruled out poly in my post. Few courts in any state are ready to handle those kinds of issues.

Thank you so much for posting.


< Message edited by Fetters4U -- 6/20/2011 4:21:32 PM >

_____________________________

Male-Dom-Straight

A dame that knows the ropes isn't likely to get tied up. -- Mae West
I like restraint, if it doesn't go too far. -- Mae West

To err is human; to edit, divine...

(in reply to leadership527)
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RE: Legal Issues concerning LTR slaves - 6/20/2011 4:25:14 PM   
Muttling


Posts: 1612
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		It's actually a bit straightforward, just look to marital laws.

You have marriages that are established with a license and common law marriages which are more difficult to establish.

The law doesn't recognized relationships of slavery, only marriage.

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Legal Issues concerning LTR slaves - 6/20/2011 4:26:59 PM   
Fetters4U


Posts: 393
Joined: 5/25/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet
In short - get an agreement written. Do it according to the laws of whatever state you reside.


You betcha!

(Is it okay if I slip you a dog biscuit? )


_____________________________

Male-Dom-Straight

A dame that knows the ropes isn't likely to get tied up. -- Mae West
I like restraint, if it doesn't go too far. -- Mae West

To err is human; to edit, divine...

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Legal Issues concerning LTR slaves - 6/20/2011 4:42:25 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		looks at the long list.....

yeaaahh...that's what I have an adult child for. 


_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

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RE: Legal Issues concerning LTR slaves - 6/20/2011 4:42:46 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fetters4U
I am not doing anything except seeking knowledge. I am not interested-in nor capable-of owning a slave. Forgive me if I state my points dispassionately, in present company,  I do not feel qualified to voice an opinion.

*chuckles* I say this only half-humorously. the very fact that you don't feel qualified to voice an opinion probably means your opinion is worth more than most in my book. But to my original comment though, I gotta tell you that all of these things did not occur to me before either marrying or collaring Carol. What DID occur to me was "Holy Crap I Sure Do Love That Woman!" Pretty much everything else flows from "I love her" which, to me, implies concrete action on my part.

I feel sure that you have protected Carol in every possible way. What do you personally think?
Personally, I think that responsibility and authority go hand in hand. Anything else is corrupt and I choose not to be corrupt. I am responsible for all of the results of all the decisions that I personally made. Given that I have total authority... well... yeah.... I'm screwed ~chuckles~ So if I set Carol on a path which involved herself building her own long-term career and financial health then I would not feel responsible to provide in other ways. Since I have not done that and given our age brackets, my financial responsibility to Carol goes till she dies or is otherwise able to provide for herself.

California is enlightened in many ways. However, a same sex slave in a non gay marriage state has not much chance of winning a fair settlement. Also, I have not ruled out poly in my post. Few courts in any state are ready to handle those kinds of issues.
Quite correct. But in pretty much every jurisdiction that I'm aware of things are quite a bit more complicated than "married" or "not married". As semisweet said, only a local and competent attorney could tell you for sure.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Fetters4U)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Legal Issues concerning LTR slaves - 6/20/2011 4:47:11 PM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline

(Is it okay if I slip you a dog biscuit? )

[/quote]
Not only OK, but mandatory.  Pant, pant.
These legal discussions really are fun.


_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to Fetters4U)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Legal Issues concerning LTR slaves - 6/20/2011 4:47:34 PM   
Fetters4U


Posts: 393
Joined: 5/25/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
But obviously the easiest way to make sure your s type can visit you in the hospital, make sure your medical decisions are followed, etc is for them to be the one named in your medical directives. That they have durable power of attorney for when you fall ill. That your will specifically states you are leaving only token memorabilia to your family and everything else to your partner of many years.

Yes. Straightforward and effective. In a poly arrangement pick one... or two.
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
As far as assuming an unscrupulous next partner will steal all her assets, the same could be said of your next partner stealing all of yours which includes her earnings you took from her.

You better believe I will have as much legal protection as possible even for a vanilla marriage. Should I not also do the same for my slave? Many Masters do not regard it as stealing.
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
Not to mention the ethics of demanding someone live in your house, do all your housework for you, but not pay her a fair wage for the work and at the same time preventing them from earning a living then or in the future by keeping them off the job market and unable to compete. Assuming that she can get any kind of job after ten years at home.

This sounds a lot like many marriages...
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
But if you don't want a person to be considered your partner under the law, then you don't live with them for years on end. After all, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, etc then do expect everyone to consider it a duck.

Personally, I do not see the point in not marrying your LTR if you can. Since my question was specific to non-working slaves, the tax advantages of filing married instead of single are huge. It is also, as far as I know, the only way they can collect on your pension. However, there are a lot of places that same sex partners cannot marry. Poly relationships cannot marry everyone. There are also some people that will not divorce for religious reasons, so are not free to marry.

Thanks for helping out here   


_____________________________

Male-Dom-Straight

A dame that knows the ropes isn't likely to get tied up. -- Mae West
I like restraint, if it doesn't go too far. -- Mae West

To err is human; to edit, divine...

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Legal Issues concerning LTR slaves - 6/20/2011 5:15:44 PM   
Fetters4U


Posts: 393
Joined: 5/25/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
*chuckles* I say this only half-humorously. the very fact that you don't feel qualified to voice an opinion probably means your opinion is worth more than most in my book. But to my original comment though, I gotta tell you that all of these things did not occur to me before either marrying or collaring Carol. What DID occur to me was "Holy Crap I Sure Do Love That Woman!" Pretty much everything else flows from "I love her" which, to me, implies concrete action on my part.

I understand love. You have my admiration and a little envy too.

I did not think about any of the obligations that go with ownership, until a chance conversation with a nice slave about medical insurance. From then till now, the thought of financial responsibility has been growing in my head. Was I just stupid not to see the need or, is this a point that needs raising for all that desire Mastery..

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
Personally, I think that responsibility and authority go hand in hand. Anything else is corrupt and I choose not to be corrupt. I am responsible for all of the results of all the decisions that I personally made. Given that I have total authority... well... yeah.... I'm screwed ~chuckles~ So if I set Carol on a path which involved herself building her own long-term career and financial health then I would not feel responsible to provide in other ways. Since I have not done that and given our age brackets, my financial responsibility to Carol goes till she dies or is otherwise able to provide for herself

I am really glad someone feels this way. I hope others do too.





_____________________________

Male-Dom-Straight

A dame that knows the ropes isn't likely to get tied up. -- Mae West
I like restraint, if it doesn't go too far. -- Mae West

To err is human; to edit, divine...

(in reply to leadership527)
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RE: Legal Issues concerning LTR slaves - 6/20/2011 5:25:45 PM   
Fetters4U


Posts: 393
Joined: 5/25/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: peppermint
To answer the question above, I researched Montana laws on common law marriage. To be married we would have to present ourselves as married, or have the intention of being married some day. We make sure people know we are not married and have no intention of marrying ever.

If you both have good jobs, staying single is financially advantageous. Can you think of any other reasons people might want to avoid marriage?




_____________________________

Male-Dom-Straight

A dame that knows the ropes isn't likely to get tied up. -- Mae West
I like restraint, if it doesn't go too far. -- Mae West

To err is human; to edit, divine...

(in reply to peppermint)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Legal Issues concerning LTR slaves - 6/20/2011 5:37:13 PM   
Fetters4U


Posts: 393
Joined: 5/25/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet
These legal discussions really are fun.


For you. I am a very recent member; to post this topic was a bit nerve wracking. I did not know what, if any, response I would get. Someone might raise this issue every couple of weeks. Someone could (and still might) think I should mind my own business. At least things have started well.


{{{kibble}}} There you go girl 


_____________________________

Male-Dom-Straight

A dame that knows the ropes isn't likely to get tied up. -- Mae West
I like restraint, if it doesn't go too far. -- Mae West

To err is human; to edit, divine...

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Legal Issues concerning LTR slaves - 6/20/2011 5:38:45 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		As an aside, I have spoken to a couple women who lost interest when I told them they would work a part time job and that money would go into an account which would be a cushion for them in case the relationship ended. They wanted to be owned property with no assets or strings. I imagine they found men who provided that for them.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to Fetters4U)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Legal Issues concerning LTR slaves - 6/20/2011 6:25:21 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fetters4U
For you. I am a very recent member; to post this topic was a bit nerve wracking. I did not know what, if any, response I would get. Someone might raise this issue every couple of weeks. Someone could (and still might) think I should mind my own business. At least things have started well.

Then here is my [unsolicited] advice. This is the internet. No matter WHAT you post, some people are going to disagree. Some of them will do so rudely. Don't let that stop you. One of the people I most respect is a young male who admittedly never had any actual experience and wasn't in a life position to get that experience. But man, he seemed pretty smart to me. I know for a fact I'm not alone in that assessment.

Just be aware that you will inevitably post some stupid things that you will later regret. I've got a whole laundry list of "Oh man, I can't believe I said that" posts from a few years back. Pretty much everyone forgave me for my idiocy.


_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Fetters4U)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Legal Issues concerning LTR slaves - 6/20/2011 6:31:29 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline 		I actually feel such considerations are no different than any two (or more) people entering a live-in relationship.  These are things everyone should talk about and work out.

That said, the Mister & I are talking about moving me in.  He has a teen kid to look after, and I expect all his inheritance, etc, would go to her.  I would be disappointed and surprised if it didn't.  I'll still work, and he's made it clear that my income will go into a savings, to rebuild the nest egg I lost during my divorce. If we split, I'll have adequate funds, and if we don't, we'll have an even better retirement.

I would have no interest in taking his daughter's inheritance if we were to split.  That would be pretty evil of me.

As for medical decisions and what not - he makes those decisions for me now, even living apart.


_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to Fetters4U)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Legal Issues concerning LTR slaves - 6/20/2011 9:16:51 PM   
peppermint


Posts: 5175
Joined: 10/18/2005
From: Montana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fetters4U

If you both have good jobs, staying single is financially advantageous. Can you think of any other reasons people might want to avoid marriage?





Actually neither of us works.  He's retired.  I quit 5 years ago to be with him.  I have a small tax free annuity that will continue until I die.  Neither one of us has a lot of money.  The main reason why we avoid marriage is that I would lose all my medical benefits if I married.  If I had to buy medical insurance at my age with my health problems it would probably cost me $700+ a month. 

(in reply to Fetters4U)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Legal Issues concerning LTR slaves - 6/20/2011 9:42:15 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		An estate lawyer can be a great help as well when dealing with the "what if's" of the Dominant passing away.

Living trusts could be a way to go.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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