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Our allies in Pakistan - 6/15/2011 9:54:01 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		http://beta.news.yahoo.com/pakistan-arrests-cias-bin-laden-informants-report-045649084.html

We give them HOW much fucking money every year?

More proof that Obama was correct in not telling them we were ready to take Bin Ladn out.

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RE: Our allies in Pakistan - 6/15/2011 9:55:21 AM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		With friends like these,heh Hill ?

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RE: Our allies in Pakistan - 6/15/2011 9:57:22 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		As I said at the outset, our problems lie in Pakistan with that see saw relationship, not in Afghanistan. 

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RE: Our allies in Pakistan - 6/15/2011 12:51:54 PM   
flcouple2009


Posts: 2784
Joined: 1/8/2009
Status: offline 		We have allies in Pakistan?

Every time we've played around in Afghanistan we've thrown them a tom of money.  Ronnie did it, Georgie did it,  and it would be nice if Obama pulled the plug on them.

Question is what do you do?

At best Pakistan is a semi stable country with a host of radical  and terrorist groups operating in the country side.  They also possess a nuclear arsenal and have been known to have a coup or two.  That is one of the places where keeping a friendly government in place is in our best interest.



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RE: Our allies in Pakistan - 6/15/2011 3:54:11 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		yah but that bin laden story was worth a lot of money

so is keeping gubmints

votes need to be rigged, other factions paid off the costs of a democracy aint cheap.


< Message edited by Real0ne -- 6/15/2011 3:57:25 PM >

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RE: Our allies in Pakistan - 6/15/2011 4:28:29 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		It would be nice of President Obama pulled ALL of our troops out of both Afghanistan AND those giving support and training to Pakistan then go back to cruise missiles and drone attacks.

The plus side is that cruise missiles need to be replaced at a few million per copy, and that means more jobs, plus the cost of R&D to design better cruise missiles and then to build them, we should be able to turn the US economy into a guns only one and become the most advanced military power in the world.

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RE: Our allies in Pakistan - 6/15/2011 4:29:35 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

http://beta.news.yahoo.com/pakistan-arrests-cias-bin-laden-informants-report-045649084.html

We give them HOW much fucking money every year?

More proof that Obama was correct in not telling them we were ready to take Bin Ladn out.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_attacks_in_Pakistan

Just go to the chart, to see the escalation of drone attacks.

We killed close to 700 people in pakistan last year, and you are wondering why a growing portion of the population is tired of it, and therefore the government in pakistan will have a less and less favorable view of our activities over time.

I'd have told us to take the blood money and get the fuck out a long time ago, according to leaked documents the majority of those killed were civilians.

So, let's look at this way, let's say mexico has been sending unmanned planes in to target their enemies, and those planes end up killing US kids, mothers, fathers etc... and then mexico sends like a few billion dollars to pay for the right to kill all the US citizens they want to. Then they go on TV and tell you the US can't be trusted, and invade your territory to kill one of their prime targets. Then mexican citizens go on a forum and declare they just don't understand why the US is so upset I mean the mexicans have paid them billions, that should make up for 100's of innocent people killed. Right.

How in the hell do you embed images on here, I've never done it. Anyway here is a link to some dead kids funded by the US that killed some kids and blew part of their heads off. But, but, it's okay.. they should not worry about that.
http://uruknet.info/pic.php?f=14drone-attack1.jpg

Of course we pay them for the luxury of killing them. They should just shut the fuck up about it.


< Message edited by NeedToUseYou -- 6/15/2011 4:31:53 PM >

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RE: Our allies in Pakistan - 6/15/2011 5:27:54 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		Well, need, if that happened, we should have the balls to not keep 'making nice' to mexico and telling them we are their friends and begging meney from them eh?

As for drone attacks killing innocents, if the elders of those villages cared about their people then they would tell Al Quaida operatives to stay the hell away.

Al Quaida only goes places where they are welcome in that area. Unfortunately, they seem to be welcome everywhere.

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Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

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RE: Our allies in Pakistan - 6/15/2011 5:44:36 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		We basically fund their security operations.

Let`s use that leverage.

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RE: Our allies in Pakistan - 6/15/2011 6:04:45 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Well, need, if that happened, we should have the balls to not keep 'making nice' to mexico and telling them we are their friends and begging meney from them eh?

As for drone attacks killing innocents, if the elders of those villages cared about their people then they would tell Al Quaida operatives to stay the hell away.

Al Quaida only goes places where they are welcome in that area. Unfortunately, they seem to be welcome everywhere.


Unfortunately people with guns tend to have a say because of the guns, perhaps those that welcome gunmen do so through fear. Now take an extremist with a gun, tell them to fuck off might just get you killed for being a not good enough believer, and who next will stand up to the gunman having seen what happened to the last who tried.

As to whether this happens, one can only guess seeing as little in the way of news comes out from such gunman occupied places.

Therefore I believe it is assumed people are welcoming when the reality might be completel different


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RE: Our allies in Pakistan - 6/15/2011 6:22:39 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Well, need, if that happened, we should have the balls to not keep 'making nice' to mexico and telling them we are their friends and begging meney from them eh?

As for drone attacks killing innocents, if the elders of those villages cared about their people then they would tell Al Quaida operatives to stay the hell away.

Al Quaida only goes places where they are welcome in that area. Unfortunately, they seem to be welcome everywhere.


It looks to me they are starting down the not making nice path. Congrats. And if someone comes and threatens you to comply that has 20 guns pointed at your head, while you have a bb gun, well most of the time, you will at least mimic cooperation. You have seen our military budget I presume. You are aware of the US spends more than the rest of the world combined. You are aware Pakistan is hardly in a position to negotiate on equal terms. But that doesn't matter, they should have went to war with us, when we first started crossing their border, I guess.

To your second point, so we can kill whoever we want if we just say an enemy is there. Gotcha. We've now killed 10's of thousands of civilians in our process to "avenge" 911 so, I guess all those people are "justified" in going wherever the enemy is to.

To your third point, I doubt it, you are asserting a terrorist org respects peoples wishes as to where they travel to or locate. I mean they are respectful gentleman, apparently, they wouldn't threaten to kill anyone, that would make them like "terrorists" or something.

Anyway, enjoy burning the next few billion for nothing, and killing civilians in the name of chasing an overblown terrorist org.

I don't think it is worth it.





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RE: Our allies in Pakistan - 6/15/2011 7:30:10 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Well, need, if that happened, we should have the balls to not keep 'making nice' to mexico and telling them we are their friends and begging meney from them eh?

As for drone attacks killing innocents, if the elders of those villages cared about their people then they would tell Al Quaida operatives to stay the hell away.

Al Quaida only goes places where they are welcome in that area. Unfortunately, they seem to be welcome everywhere.


Unfortunately people with guns tend to have a say because of the guns, perhaps those that welcome gunmen do so through fear. Now take an extremist with a gun, tell them to fuck off might just get you killed for being a not good enough believer, and who next will stand up to the gunman having seen what happened to the last who tried.

As to whether this happens, one can only guess seeing as little in the way of news comes out from such gunman occupied places.

Therefore I believe it is assumed people are welcoming when the reality might be completel different



To the last 2 posters. Almost every tribesman in the border areas has an AK47. They welcome the Taliban because they WANT to welcome them.

Even in Iraq, when we supposedly disarmed the villagers, we only took away "heavy weapons" Every household kept their AK. If you don't believe me, check it.

My point of this is. If the Pakistanis want us to go away, they need to quit harboring people who would like nothing more than to kill people who don't share their faith. By their own admission, they define the border area as 'semi autonomous'. That means the government has no power there. These people are a VERY small percentage of the total muslim population. A tiny minority should not be allowed to destroy the majority.

If you accept someone's money, you should be willing to play by their rules. Do you perpetually violate the rules of your workplace and then expect a paycheck? It's simple. If they don't want our 'help', dont ask for and then cash the checks.

I think we had NO business in Iraq. When Dubya was inaugurated, I told a lot of folks that we would be invading Iraq within 4 years. He had a hard-on for Hussein.

Afghanistan is different. The problem is that what we are setting up there is going to bite us on the ass at least as bad as supporting the Shah.

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Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: Our allies in Pakistan - 6/16/2011 2:36:35 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Interesting, a nation that has guns in their households is complaining about a nation they invaded that also has guns in their households, tell me, who was the enemy in Iraq, Hussein or anyone in Iraq ?

But where world news and education doesn't reach, people tend to look after themselves, and that means they are generally armed to protect themselves, their family and their property. I wonder how many Taliban have been killed by border tribesmen, we don't know because the news never gets out, so we assume the border tribesmen welcome combatants who can invite death and destruction into their households, as surely news must be getting around about the drones that treat everyone as the same.

Probably because of the world we live in, we fail to understand the world that border tribesmen live in, perhaps their existence is much akin to the lawless wild west of many years ago.

But they were ok when it was the Ruskies who were occupying their lands.

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: Our allies in Pakistan - 6/16/2011 5:35:05 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Interesting, a nation that has guns in their households is complaining about a nation they invaded that also has guns in their households, tell me, who was the enemy in Iraq, Hussein or anyone in Iraq ?

But where world news and education doesn't reach, people tend to look after themselves, and that means they are generally armed to protect themselves, their family and their property. I wonder how many Taliban have been killed by border tribesmen, we don't know because the news never gets out, so we assume the border tribesmen welcome combatants who can invite death and destruction into their households, as surely news must be getting around about the drones that treat everyone as the same.

Probably because of the world we live in, we fail to understand the world that border tribesmen live in, perhaps their existence is much akin to the lawless wild west of many years ago.

But they were ok when it was the Ruskies who were occupying their lands.

Sorry, Anerin, maybe I was unclear. look back. I said "We had NO business in Iraq".

That would imply that we didn't have enemies there.. OK, maybe not that absolute. We have a few enemies everywhere. Every country does even domestically. We didn't have enemies there that were worth the effort of military action.

My point in the OP was simply this. If you take a man's coin, you dont stab him in the back first chance you get.

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Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: Our allies in Pakistan - 6/16/2011 5:50:28 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Believe me,the Brits have plenty of guns,....and tanks and Harriers and an awesome fleet.

.Like this boat.

I want one!

The Brits don`t have any disadvantages when it comes to firepower.



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RE: Our allies in Pakistan - 6/16/2011 5:55:37 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Apart from being too cheap to issue any of it to the armed forces members who need it, of course...

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RE: Our allies in Pakistan - 6/16/2011 3:28:41 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		So far no one has even mentioned the one issue that is the key to Pakistani policy. (Just in case you didn't know it's called Kashmir and it's on the other side of Pakistan to Afghanistan.)

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 6/16/2011 3:29:34 PM >

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RE: Our allies in Pakistan - 6/16/2011 4:21:46 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline
quote:

My point in the OP was simply this. If you take a man's coin, you dont stab him in the back first chance you get


That depends on the man and who that man supposedly acts for.

You might be dealing with an honourable trustworthy person as an authority, but who knows what goes on above or below him and who else he has promised favour to, not to forget money by some is seen as cheap, actions speak louder than pocket change.

Now before one condemns others, one must be squeaky clean themselves, has the US govt. ever gone back on its word ?

If not and they think by offering cash they can buy someone, it is more of a desperate case of bunging money that is not their own and hope things work  out in your favour ?

There are many in the world that cannot be bought.


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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: Our allies in Pakistan - 6/16/2011 7:30:24 PM   
Hillwilliam


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Joined: 8/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

There are many in the world that cannot be bought.




If one is so virtuous that one cannot be bought, doesn't it defeat the purpose to take the money anyway under false pretenses?

That would seem to be the opposite of virtue.

A virtuous man would simply decline the offer and hold his head high.

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Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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RE: Our allies in Pakistan - 6/16/2011 9:13:44 PM   
Marini


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Joined: 2/14/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

There are many in the world that cannot be bought.




If one is so virtuous that one cannot be bought, doesn't it defeat the purpose to take the money anyway under false pretenses?

That would seem to be the opposite of virtue.

A virtuous man would simply decline the offer and hold his head high.


Do you think most of the world operates on the "honor" system?
It's almost like people who cry, "that's not fair!".

Last time I checked Pakistan is a 3rd world country, they have no problem taking our money and whatever else we give them, and then kicking us in the ass.

..US/Pakistan relationship makes me wonder about some of our "friends" around the world.
.

Here is an interesting article on some of the history between the US and Pakistan.

The Double Game, article from the New Yorker

< Message edited by Marini -- 6/16/2011 9:26:56 PM >

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