RE: The David Epstein incest case

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RE: The David Epstein incest case - 6/12/2011 5:02:11 PM

NocturnalStalker

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ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

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I'm curious to see who defends incest from here so I can block them

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RE: The David Epstein incest case - 6/12/2011 5:29:35 PM

LadyHibiscus

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On FB, there was a little link on the "It's Okay To Say Takei" thread that showed two maps of the US: one highlighted the states where gay marriage was legal, the other highlighted states where it was legal to marry your first cousin. It's legal in more than a third of the states!

There proceeded to be much outrage over whether cousin marriage was incest, and why incest laws were a crock. The banner of Science was waved. Very interesting, the visceral reactions.

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RE: The David Epstein incest case - 6/12/2011 6:10:26 PM

juliaoceania

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ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

On FB, there was a little link on the "It's Okay To Say Takei" thread that showed two maps of the US: one highlighted the states where gay marriage was legal, the other highlighted states where it was legal to marry your first cousin. It's legal in more than a third of the states!

There proceeded to be much outrage over whether cousin marriage was incest, and why incest laws were a crock. The banner of Science was waved. Very interesting, the visceral reactions.

Different cultures have different ways of measuring who is kin and who isn't, and none of the systems of kinship are based upon rational thinking..

In some places it is okay to marry your mother's sister's daughter, but not your father's brother's son

In other places it is reversed

In some places, you can't marry anyone one your mother's side, but you can marry anyone on your dad's

And in some places it is reversed.

In some places you can't marry even a family member my marriage, lets say your sister's husbands brother if you are a woman...

In some cultures it was expected for you to marry your sibling, as long as they had a different mother, I shit you not, especially in places where there is a lot power vested in the family line.

It is really weird how people determine who is family, and who is not.

Now, this is not to say that our incest taboos are not valid, they sure as hell are valid in my book. I think that since we are expanding what "family" means, etc, we are also going to be facing more incestuous situations as time goes by, maybe they are not legal incest, but emotionally they are (think Woody Allen)

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RE: The David Epstein incest case - 6/12/2011 6:12:33 PM

LadyHibiscus

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Eeeee! KIN TERMS!! My anthro nightmare! :)

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RE: The David Epstein incest case - 6/12/2011 6:38:09 PM

juliaoceania

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ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Eeeee! KIN TERMS!! My anthro nightmare! :)

I didn't much care for kinship studies.... especially graphing family structures

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RE: The David Epstein incest case - 6/12/2011 8:17:47 PM

slaveluci

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ORIGINAL: peachgirl

Call me old-fashioned...part of a parent's job is to nurture and protect, from everyone, including ourselves. That is a responsibility that doesn't go away, no matter how old you, or your children, are.

The leap from fondling, petting etc to intercourse is pretty big. I wonder what was happening in the home before she became "legal".

Excellent point, peachgirl. Feelings of that nature generally aren't just going to occur one day when the family member officially becomes an adult......luci

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RE: The David Epstein incest case - 6/12/2011 8:28:38 PM

slaveluci

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The author does mention both behaviors but I don't ever get the impression that he feels personally that they are comparable. Consider that part of what he wrote: "Liberals said it was gross but shouldn't be prosecuted. One side defends the privacy of all consensual sex; the other side sees an inexorable descent from homosexuality to incest. Let's try to come up with something better. If gay sex is OK, how can incest be wrong?" By article's end, he has answered this rhetorical question and left readers with the impression that homosexuality/gay sex is fine but incest, indeed, is not. I didn't see anything assholish about his statements. He was basically posing questions he's heard asked and then carefully explained what the difference (at least to him)is. I thought he took great care to detail the arguments of those who think adult incest isn't so bad. However, in the end, he feels that yes, it is, and explains why. Not assholish at all to me.............luci

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RE: The David Epstein incest case - 6/12/2011 11:54:35 PM

LadyPact

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Hey! Look at that. A subject where julia and I agree on something this week.

(You know I think the world of you, julia. We've just been on different sides on a lot of topics recently.)

I really don't care who people chose to fuck, but I might strongly suggest birth control in this instance. I've read too many articles over the years about the consequences of birth defects in such situations.

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RE: The David Epstein incest case - 6/13/2011 4:22:52 AM

needlesandpins

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i think where the reference to gay sex was mentioned was in the fact that for many years it was considered a taboo, mainly i guess because it says it should be in the bible. however, let's then consider the bible.......erm this world started with how many people? and the population expanded how?

species usualy start off in very small singular ways, in that the wolf, say for instance, gave us all the breeds of our common dogs. but how did those breeds come about? through cross and line breeding. we do it with animals all the time and think nothing of it. however, WE humans are animals and also started in small pockets. dispite what anyone thinks animalistic instinct is for the species to servive and we have done that. i'm damn sure that a huge amount of incest has occurred to get us where we are. so yes there is the argument of genetic defects in the children coming about from incest, however it's not a guarentee as our species has proven in its existence. but yes it can occur just the same as it does in our dogs when too closely bred for certain traits.

there is also alot of research going on now about why siblings who have not met until adults sometimes have a huge sexual attraction to each other too.

now don't get me wrong here. i'm not saying that i think it's all ok. especially not where children under age are concerned. but we are conditioned to think incest is wrong, just as many were, still are in some cases, conditioned to think homosexuality was wrong. when it comes to little tribes in the middle of a jungle i'm willing to bet that they are very closely related and think differently to the 'modern' world as to incest. also the word 'family' is very vague as you can consider anyone to be family and in so doing, the individual may not have had a choice as to who was considered part of their family. so why then should that person then ignore the urge of sexual attraction if neither are related by blood and both are of consenting age?

for instance......i know a lady who married a man after her first husband died. her daughter then married her husband's brother. now in what some have said this is classed as incest by proxy as this man was actually the daughter's uncle by marriage. there are grey areas and the way we have been conditioned to think doesn't mean it is all wrong.

i have written what i have by very much so putting my personal feelings aside and trying to look at it objectively instead of the instant brainwashed reaction that some will/have had. some of the arguments against incest hold no real logic, only bigotted reaction. the only real factor is underage children and the possible children brought about by the sexual relationships of those of age.

i find it strange how it's supposed to be such a huge taboo, and yet there is a porn site that i use, very well known where in it's listings is a large amount of incest material. i was quite surprised when it brought it up when i searched for gay men. it in no way related to my searches and yet it is there with five star ratings. now i'm awear that these aren't real relations.....well as far as i can be.....but obviously there is a call for it or it wouldn't be there. it could just be the fantasy play like the daddy/daughter play that so many want/have in here, but then why be so opened minded as to think that is ok, but concenting related adults arn't?

i think there is too much snap conditioned judgement made on a subject with more grey and variables than pure black and white.

i shall keep an open mind.

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RE: The David Epstein incest case - 6/13/2011 8:32:31 AM

lizi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

quote:

ORIGINAL: peachgirl

Call me old-fashioned...part of a parent's job is to nurture and protect, from everyone, including ourselves. That is a responsibility that doesn't go away, no matter how old you, or your children, are.

The leap from fondling, petting etc to intercourse is pretty big. I wonder what was happening in the home before she became "legal".

Excellent point, peachgirl. Feelings of that nature generally aren't just going to occur one day when the family member officially becomes an adult......luci

This is the sticking point for me. I'm all for adults doing whatever adult things they choose to do, but to me its uncomfortable to imagine how things were in this father/daughter relationship when the daughter was NOT an adult. I mean really...did the father's interest in her just turn on by magic after she was 18? I kind of doubt it and if she knew he was interested then it could have warped the way she reacted to him before she was mature enough to reason it out and see if it's what she truly wanted.

I don't know how things happened between them, but it seems very possible that though things are under the banner of adulthood now they quite possibly were not in the beginning stages.

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RE: The David Epstein incest case - 6/13/2011 9:09:14 AM

juliaoceania

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(You know I think the world of you, julia. We've just been on different sides on a lot of topics recently.)

Right back atcha LadyPact!

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RE: The David Epstein incest case - 6/13/2011 11:00:42 AM

DesFIP

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As others have said, there can't be free consent because of the pre-existing relationship. That the power parents have permit them to do to their children, even when adults, what another adult would not allow to happen.

If you aren't free to say no, then you haven't said yes.

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RE: The David Epstein incest case - 6/13/2011 9:44:03 PM

SternSkipper

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We've mingled.

hahahahahaha

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RE: The David Epstein incest case - 6/13/2011 10:36:03 PM

blacksword404

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ORIGINAL: DesFIP

As others have said, there can't be free consent because of the pre-existing relationship. That the power parents have permit them to do to their children, even when adults, what another adult would not allow to happen.

If you aren't free to say no, then you haven't said yes.

This is where things get murky. What about people in m/s relationships where the same type of power exist? Or in the case of people not related by blood. A mother is married to a guy and her daughter is marries to his brother. But the daughter married first. When the mother then gets married does she automatically make her daughter guilty of incest?

I don't think anybody has ever has the balls to go in and untangle these type of laws so that they make real sense. In the case of in-laws, what about if the married people divorce? Are you still related?

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