Police shooting: Innocent man, 36, dies from injuries (Full Version)

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Lucylastic -> Police shooting: Innocent man, 36, dies from injuries (6/8/2011 2:19:56 PM)

Hours after Montreal police shot and killed a man on downtown Tuesday morning and fatally wounded a passerby, investigators could offer few answers about how a seemingly routine police call could escalate so quickly. Mario Hamel, 40, was shot and killed after brandishing a knife at police officers, Const. André Leclerc said.It is not yet clear whether the passerby, a St. Luc Hospital employee, was killed by a ricochet or a stray bullet fired by police. The man spent the day in critical condition fighting for his life. Shortly after 6 p.m., Sgt. Claude Denis of the Sûreté du Québec announced the man had died.Police were responding to a disturbance call when the incident started.Two police officers found Hamel using a knife to cut through garbage bags on Ste. Élisabeth St. near Ste. Catherine St. about 6: 30 a.m. Police chased him for a few blocks east to St. Denis St., where the shooting occurred.Hamel lived at the Maison Eugénie Bernier, a rooming house on St. Denis St. run by Accueuil Bonneau, an organization that works with itinerant people. He was known to have psychiatric problems.The hospital worker may have been on a Bixi bicycle when he was shot. A blood-stained bike was found near the spot where he fell
Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Routine+police+call+turns+deadly/4909721/story.html#ixzz1OioWAcmN




kdsub -> RE: Police shooting: Innocent man, 36, dies from injuries (6/8/2011 3:06:11 PM)

How about ..Tragic accident...a 36 year old passerby was accidentally shot and later died of his wound when police were forced to use deadly force defending themselves from a knife welding mad man.

Here in the states they would have used a taser... but then many here on CM would go nuts about it's use.

Butch




juliaoceania -> RE: Police shooting: Innocent man, 36, dies from injuries (6/8/2011 5:41:06 PM)

quote:

Here in the states they would have used a taser... but then many here on CM would go nuts about it's use.


No, that is not true, they use bullets as often as they tase such people.

I think there is nothing wrong for the substitution of a taser for a gun when deadly force would have been necessary otherwise. Unfortunately law enforcement doesn't have a set of protocols on when tasing should be considered excessive force.




Fellow -> RE: Police shooting: Innocent man, 36, dies from injuries (6/8/2011 5:41:48 PM)

"Killer with a badge and gun" "accidents" are becoming routine. There was a Seattle case recently: http://www.seattlepi.com/default/article/Report-Police-shooting-of-woodcarver-not-890075.php






kdsub -> RE: Police shooting: Innocent man, 36, dies from injuries (6/8/2011 6:41:10 PM)

quote:

Unfortunately law enforcement doesn't have a set of protocols on when tasing should be considered excessive force.


No that’s not true in all cases...here in St Louis they do have strict rules on when deadly force can be used... But when things happen fast the rules are not always followed... and that is understandable...Police have a tough job.

Butch




juliaoceania -> RE: Police shooting: Innocent man, 36, dies from injuries (6/8/2011 6:48:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Unfortunately law enforcement doesn't have a set of protocols on when tasing should be considered excessive force.


No that’s not true in all cases...here in St Louis they do have strict rules on when deadly force can be used... But when things happen fast the rules are not always followed... and that is understandable...Police have a tough job.

Butch


They have strict protocols for deadly force everywhere. I am saying they do not have protocols for when it is appropriate to tase people because it is seen as not a harmful thing to do.

I think if they came up with good protocols about when tasing people is appropriate, you would see less critics of tasing.




kdsub -> RE: Police shooting: Innocent man, 36, dies from injuries (6/8/2011 7:38:25 PM)

I don't know of a link to show you but The City of St. Louis does have a taser policy... It was a big story last year here in St. Louis... All officers authorized to use tasers were themselves tased as part of their training...They went on to explain when they were authorized to use tasers. Now this may have been bull for local TV consumption...but I'll bet, with no proof, that many forces have taser policies.

Butch




juliaoceania -> RE: Police shooting: Innocent man, 36, dies from injuries (6/8/2011 7:48:55 PM)

They need them because tasing people can actually kill them, especially older people, people on drugs, and people with heart problems, or high blood pressure. Tasers have often been used to control a person that was of no danger to anyone, just because it was easier than manually restraining them.




Termyn8or -> RE: Police shooting: Innocent man, 36, dies from injuries (6/8/2011 7:53:28 PM)

ANOTHER GUN DEATH !

THINK OF THE CHILDREN.

BAN ALL GUNS IMMEDIATELY.

T^T




juliaoceania -> RE: Police shooting: Innocent man, 36, dies from injuries (6/8/2011 8:39:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

ANOTHER GUN DEATH !

THINK OF THE CHILDREN.

BAN ALL GUNS IMMEDIATELY.

T^T


Um, did you read the article, or are you making wild assumptions?




Termyn8or -> RE: Police shooting: Innocent man, 36, dies from injuries (6/9/2011 1:09:43 AM)

A TASER gun is a GUN ! Ever seen one ? This is not the stupid thing you keep in the desk drawer that needs to be in contact with the assailant's body, like a knife, fist or a baseball bat. It fires projectiles. Did you know that very few gun wounds actually result in death ? Bet you didn't.

Well a TASER shoots out projectiles, and has a range more than an arm's length, just like a gun. And once someone is TASed you have them at your mercy. They are usually unconcious and could be strangled quite easily for example. So what if I take a gun of sorts and instead of shooting you with a bullet, I shoot you with an apple. This apple is moving at 200MPH, so it might just HURT. I mean hurt, not just sting. Injure.

Now you see the difference, in that really, there is no difference.

T^T




Aneirin -> RE: Police shooting: Innocent man, 36, dies from injuries (6/9/2011 3:05:34 AM)

Just like the deaths caused by rubber bullets, a projectile is a projectile, where that projectile hits determines the consequences, but what determines the use of deadly force, actual or perceived danger?

The other thing is even those highly trained, they feel fear at the situations they are presented with as no one is immune to danger, so it is hoped that they will remember their training and act accordingly, but quite often fear over rules the thinking regards what others have taught them, because law enforcement are not as highly trained as say the military.

But whatever force is presented should be matched, but I wonder does it ever occur that those wielding a weapon might be doing so because they are disturbed and need help rather than being killed, as killing just solves an immediate problem and creates many more.

But of those that carry deadly weapons, what goes through their mind when a situation causes them to fear, are they protecting their own existence or those they are charged with protecting as to remember even those who wield a deadly weapon are themselves to be protected as in civilised society one is innocent until proven guilty by a court of law.

My view of what law enforcement should be, is on a par with the military, i.e. body armour but with undeadly weapons, as any singular weapon wielder does not expect forces to ignore the weapon and come at them and more so when many come at them from many directions armoured and unstoppable until in such range undeadly force can be used to capture the disturbed.

My thoughts on the above come from my own experience though not armoured beyond biker leathers I was presented with a young asshole trying to relieve me of my cash by showing me his stanley knife, well I could see he was focusing all his intent on that puny blade at the end of his outstretched arm, so I advanced on him and watched him back off still with his focus on his outstretched arm and when close enough I figured my leg was longer and more powerful than his arm and so he received a steel toe capped boot in his most vulnerable spot after which his face connected with my knee as he bent over. I left him with that and went about my business. But a lot of what I knew of potential assailants came from the military, the fact that those who wield whatever when they do so they focus all into that object and believe it to be so offensive that others will fear, totally forgetting the other parts of their body which are vulnerable and even of use such is their focus. Therefore to my ideas  law enforcement or a  public protector well armoured and with understanding of the psychology of offense can disable and disarm the disturbed and bring their man in without death or even serious harm

Now if there was such a force so enabled, think anyone who thinks to wield a weapon, the knowledge that bullets won't stop those who come to take them in. A knife, well even a quarter staff can handle those, a force which can be both deadly and undeadly in the right hands.

Guns and bullets are too indescriminate, even effective rounds can carry on with their travel and cause chaos elsewhere if indeed their original aim was true, and that demonstrated to me by the L1A1 FN FAL rifle I used to use, the rhino gun as it was sometimes called with a four mile effective killing range and ability to pass through bricks and mortar and it was reported, crack an engine block.

We will have advanced when it is we can disarm and disable a weapon wielder and dissolve a situation without causing death, but until then who is of the primitive mentality.




tweakabelle -> RE: Police shooting: Innocent man, 36, dies from injuries (6/9/2011 4:34:27 AM)

Tasers don't necessarily safeguard the public from police abuse. Sometimes it works the other way around

"THE West Australian police have again been embarrassed over their treatment of Aboriginal man Kevin Spratt - who was tasered 41 times in a week in 2008 - after the court of appeal today overturned a conviction against him for obstructing police.

Justice Stephen Hall ruled that a miscarriage of justice had been done when Mr Spratt was convicted of obstructing police by resisting them before he was tasered 14 times in one incident at the Perth watchhouse.

"It is clear that Mr Spratt's plea of guilty was induced by false allegations made by the prosecution," Justice Hall said
."

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/kevin-spratt-who-was-tasered-41-times-by-wa-police-wins-appeal-against-conviction-of-obstructing-justice/story-e6frg6nf-1226011562391

There's video footage of Mr Spratt being tasered 13 times while in police custody at the police station here

It is a common practice for police here to harass Aborigines and bust them for the 'trifecta'. The police hassle a drunk man until he swears at them, they arrest him, he resists and they charge him with (i) using obscene language, (ii) resisting arrest and (ii) obstructing police. This practice is less frequent than it used to be in black areas in Sydney and the cities but much more prevalent in the bush or conservative States like Queensland, Western Australia or the Northern Territory(our "Deep South").




Aneirin -> RE: Police shooting: Innocent man, 36, dies from injuries (6/9/2011 5:19:31 AM)

Unfortunately such organisations such as law enforcement and security attract the wrong mind set, for thugs hiding behind a badge is very common. But one thing does disturb me of those that carry a badge of office, their lies carry more weight than a non badge holder's truth. Though I do not like the overzealous use of cctv and recordings, where people and power are concerned any subsequent judging authority needs to see and hear the picture for themselves so they may arrive at a fair judgement. Perhaps if such measures were in place, the public might have more respect for law enforcement officials and the officials themselves will be more retrained in their personal desires.So perhaps law enforcement should be carrying minicams that record video and audio and if a person is approached by law enforcement, all should be recorded and submitted with whatever is normally submitted to pursue a case of law against whoever.The criminals that exist within law enforcement for the good of everyone do need to be weeded out and got rid of, as they serve no useful purpose.




juliaoceania -> RE: Police shooting: Innocent man, 36, dies from injuries (6/9/2011 9:29:59 AM)

quote:

Now you see the difference, in that really, there is no difference.


Um,... one shoots bullets and the other shoots projectiles that cause shock. One is more lethal than the other.




BamaD -> RE: Police shooting: Innocent man, 36, dies from injuries (6/9/2011 10:04:57 AM)

Police have protocols for any use of force, firearms. batons, hands, and tasers. And here in the south most departments have cameras on the cars.  And even film of an officer on the ground with his attacker ramming a round into the chamber to kill him doesn't count as proof to anti police activists. 




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