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Dr Kevorkian Dies - 6/4/2011 8:54:35 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I have been gone for a few days with the flu, so I was surprised when I came back and I did not see this story posted by anyone. I thought about posting it in the P & R section, but it really isn't a story about political figures, although the way people felt about him depends somewhat about how they believe. If the mods think this story is in the wrong section, please understand i did not know where to put it, I think it transcends politics and religion.

The thing that always got me is that he was put on trial for something that doctors around this country do every day, hasten the deaths of people who have no hope of anything but more pain. I know of more than one person (personally speaking here) that had their doctor up their "pain management" to lethal levels at the end. I have seen suffering cut short, and there are doctors who take risks with their career to offer such help to those who suffer.

At the same time, perhaps this can be abused, and that is a real potential problem.

I suppose I was struck by how this one man's life changed how we talk about death, and perhaps how we plan for it. Living wills, end of life choices, these are all a part of our vocabulary in ways they were not before Dr Kevorkian. Perhaps I overstate his influence on these debates, but I don't think I do.


I think he was motivated from the motivation of wanting to ease suffering, and his own selfish desire to decide for himself when enough was enough....

Here is what the NY Times had to sayA Polarizing Figure in End-of-Life Debates

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RE: Dr Kevorkian Dies - 6/4/2011 8:58:53 PM   
sunshinemiss


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Status: offline 		Hey Julia -
I saw that as well.  It didn't occur to me to post it here, but thanks for doing it. 
Best,
sunshine



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RE: Dr Kevorkian Dies - 6/4/2011 9:01:08 PM   
wittynamehere


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Status: offline 		I've heard him speak and was impressed with him in many ways. And I think he did quite a bit of good, especially in advancing the concept of a person's rights.

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RE: Dr Kevorkian Dies - 6/4/2011 9:05:27 PM   
LinnaeaBorealis


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From: Insanity & beyond
Status: offline 		I worked on a medical floor in a University run hospital in the early 80's. Euthanasia was relatively common, but only spoken of in code words. I think that the order was written "Titrate Morphine prn". It was the kindest most humane way to take care of these people. I remember one woman in end-stage liver disease who on her last day of life was screaming in pain. That kind of scream I have never heard before or since. It was heart-wrenching. We were all praying for the Dr to write the order to help her go. There was no hope, so why should she have to writhe & scream like that on her way out???

There were other humane deaths, but Reagan found out about the practices & put a stop to them. We all used to wish that he would come to the hospital & see what his philosophy had wrought. He seemed to think that allowing a human to die was inhumane.

And along came Dr Kevorkian who was willing to go to jail to bring the issue to the public forums. As far as I'm concerned, he was a hero who followed his beliefs & help to change the attitude toward death in this country. RIP Doctor.

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RE: Dr Kevorkian Dies - 6/4/2011 9:09:27 PM   
Muttling


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I suppose I was struck by how this one man's life changed how we talk about death,




I strongly disagree.    The debate and the talk of how we deal with death was always there, but it wasn't discussed in the terms of reality for the dying and those in pain.       His contribution was to give relief to a very few number of his patients and make us be more considerate the dying.

If you've ever cared for a chronically ill loved one who was in pain that couldn't be annulled by medications, I would hope that you would understand.   Death is not something that can be prevented and our efforts in delaying it can often bring nothing but prolonged pain for those we love.

There comes a time when it is reasonable to let go and unreasonable to hold on.

< Message edited by Muttling -- 6/4/2011 9:11:18 PM >

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RE: Dr Kevorkian Dies - 6/4/2011 9:12:48 PM   
SternSkipper


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Joined: 3/7/2004
Status: offline 		I read it too and thought the nematodes would turn it into a liberal / conservative
thing. I've made up my mind not to do that till FatBall Rush Limbaugh. When that day comes, not only will I post heavily, I will ask you for a spin on the dance floor.


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RE: Dr Kevorkian Dies - 6/4/2011 9:14:49 PM   
subfever


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Status: offline 		I admired Dr. Kervorkian for his efforts.

Of course, the more religious folks did not like him "doing God's work." And then, his work had the potential of cutting into the profits of the health-care industry that feeds off the sick and dying. So it's not surprising that he wasn't one of the most popular figures around.

Yes, perhaps this thread might do better in P&R... lol

< Message edited by subfever -- 6/4/2011 9:16:17 PM >

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RE: Dr Kevorkian Dies - 6/4/2011 9:17:40 PM   
Muttling


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

I read it too and thought the nematodes would turn it into a liberal / conservative
thing. I've made up my mind not to do that till FatBall Rush Limbaugh. When that day comes, not only will I post heavily, I will ask you for a spin on the dance floor.





Please enlighten me.   Which side do the liberals take and which side do the conservatives take?   While you're at it, please tell me which side the Democrat and the Republican parties take as they're not always aligned with what you think are Lib/Cons views.



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RE: Dr Kevorkian Dies - 6/4/2011 9:23:50 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I think that there are people in this country that believe we should carry around our bloody stumps and bear it with gratitude because it is a "gift from god".... these people call themselves "pro life" and their agenda is well known. Terri Schiavo's case comes to mind when we talk about such personal matters being made into political hay. Now you are free to find out who the players were in that case... I do not think i need to spell it out, unless you live in another country or live under a log in the USA

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 6/4/2011 9:39:27 PM >

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RE: Dr Kevorkian Dies - 6/4/2011 9:35:08 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

Please enlighten me. Which side do the liberals take and which side do the conservatives take? While you're at it, please tell me which side the Democrat and the Republican parties take as they're not always aligned with what you think are Lib/Cons views.


Why would I bother? Especially in light of what I said about it to Julia.
There's historic data out there to show you which sides of the political spectrum lined up on.. Go be a good sub and do your own homework.

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RE: Dr Kevorkian Dies - 6/4/2011 9:38:11 PM   
Muttling


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:

Please enlighten me. Which side do the liberals take and which side do the conservatives take? While you're at it, please tell me which side the Democrat and the Republican parties take as they're not always aligned with what you think are Lib/Cons views.


Why would I bother? Especially in light of what I said about it to Julia.
There's historic data out there to show you which sides of the political spectrum lined up on.. Go be a good sub and do your own homework.



Go be good Troll and pester others instead of responding to a real question.

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RE: Dr Kevorkian Dies - 6/4/2011 9:42:43 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		So you are not going to respond to my post, you are just going to call someone a "troll" and then split....hmmmmmm

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Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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RE: Dr Kevorkian Dies - 6/4/2011 9:52:02 PM   
Muttling


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Joined: 9/30/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

So you are not going to respond to my post, you are just going to call someone a "troll" and then split....hmmmmmm


I agree with you comments, but disagree with your assessment of Dr Kevorkian's motivations (as I presented in my first post.)   I apologize if my first response to you didn't make this clear.


I further apologize that I didn't recognize that your second post was specifically directed at me and I was supposed to respond to it.


You might consider being more direct or using quotes in future responses so the non-telepathic among us can understand who you are responding to.


EDIT - You are the OP and I will leave this thread to you.   Enjoy.


< Message edited by Muttling -- 6/4/2011 9:54:15 PM >

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RE: Dr Kevorkian Dies - 6/4/2011 10:15:29 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

Go be good Troll and pester others instead of responding to a real question.


That goes without saying, he came to piss on a thread and when he didn't get a quick reaction out of you he gave me a try. Needs to call somebody something negative, least I addressed him appropriately by his orientation.

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RE: Dr Kevorkian Dies - 6/4/2011 10:34:04 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

but disagree with your assessment of Dr Kevorkian's motivations


I was actually going by something he said about himself, which was that he did what he did for himself mostly.


quote:

I further apologize that I didn't recognize that your second post was specifically directed at me and I was supposed to respond to it.


You might consider being more direct or using quotes in future responses so the non-telepathic among us can understand who you are responding to.



There is no need to apologize, but there is a little bit of text in the lower right hand corner of the post it says (in reply to ...), perhaps you should look in the corner of the post to see if someone is responding to you? I will say "fast reply" if I am not intending to respond to anyone in particular, it hasn't caused confusion before..

There was something I would like to elaborate on from your earlier post...


quote:

I strongly disagree. The debate and the talk of how we deal with death was always there, but it wasn't discussed in the terms of reality for the dying and those in pain. His contribution was to give relief to a very few number of his patients and make us be more considerate the dying.



I am over 40 years old. Kevorkian has been at the forefront of this debate for as long as I can remember. I do not remember the issue of living wills, end of life choices, assisted suicide, how we want to live at the end.... dying with dignity, etc, before him. Perhaps there were these discussions, especially amongst hospice providers and medical professionals, but I do not remember them coming into focus the way Kevorkian made them crystal clear. Perhaps your memory is better than mine. Perhaps you were paying closer attention. I am talking about the public at large and the debate over it, there was none, really.

quote:

If you've ever cared for a chronically ill loved one who was in pain that couldn't be annulled by medications, I would hope that you would understand. Death is not something that can be prevented and our efforts in delaying it can often bring nothing but prolonged pain for those we love.


Been there and I have the tshirt..... I have cared for an ill family member that needed full time care, stroke, emphysema, blind, on oxygen and brain damaged like a child. He lived like this for over 2 years, which we were thankful for, but when his COPD became bad, and he had no quality of life, we did not extend his life with feeding tubes, and they gave him "pain management" a euphemism for euthanasia

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Dr Kevorkian Dies - 6/5/2011 5:05:04 AM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
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Status: offline 		I admired Dr. Jack. He was passionate about his belief and it was borne of compassion. He was a good man and a good soul. I hope he rests in peace.


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