Education

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Faladen -> Education (5/31/2011 8:29:18 AM)
So lately I've been getting a bit of an education from my bi and lesbian female friends on guys. I'm not talking about the neo-feminazi education about how all men are evil pig fucks. What I'm talking about is how most heterosexual guys treat women who are bi and lesbian when they find out about their sexuality. Now just to make this clear so there isn't any confusion: I am a heterosexual man. I like women. I like the thought of lesbians, not gonna lie about that, but what I am talking about is a bit more than that. The way a lot of straight guys react towards bi and lesbian women is usually a completely different way as they were acting toward them before they knew. One moment a perfectly normal conversation could be happening, then at some point a hint or phrase or something indicating the woman is interested in other women and the guy becomes an excitable unintelligible moron suggesting threesomes and asking to watch. Now that may have been a bit over exaggerated (but it's not). But why should it matter whether or not a woman is lesbian or bi? Why should it change the way you speak to them, treat them, or act around them? Do you think it's a compliment to tell a woman how hot it is that she likes other women? Or that you would just love to watch her and another woman make out, or have sex, or anything else? I can promise you they don't take it as a compliment. If anything, I imagine it gets taken just as insulting as any other racist, bigoted, or homophobic thing could be taken. Because that's what it is. It is misogynistic and bigoted. Treating women differently because of their sexual preference is just as discriminatory as calling gay guys “fags”. It's still really offensive even though you didn't meant it to me. Just because you love lesbians doesn't make that behavior any less ignorant or stupid. Think about it this way. You are having a conversation with a woman. Everything is going great, you are getting along and having fun. Then you imply that you are straight. She freaks out, completely veers off the subject and fixates on how hot it is that you are straight. That she wants to watch you go make out with some random woman that she designates as hot. She really wants to watch you two have sex -- completely disregarding the conversation and you as a person. In a moment, you went from being an equal person to her to being a sexual object meant only to be used as a fantasy. In seconds flat, you go from being a human being with a personality, unique attributes, and feelings, to being meat on display. To some this may not sound too bad. Fair enough. But imagine that every single time you ever uttered anything that hinted at your sexuality at all in front of the opposite sex you were treated this way. That you become cautious to be around any member of the opposite sex at all because you don't want to have to hide who you are for fear of becoming a sideshow attraction for their entertainment. Also, a woman that is a lesbian or bisexual is not a slut, or a whore, or a porn star. This one caught me by surprise that apparently quite a few women that are interested in other women are hit with this stigma. Just because someone is interested in more than one sex and/or gender does not mean they will sleep with anyone. It also doesn't mean they want to have a three-or-more-some. All it means is that they may or may not love someone that is the same sex and/or gender as they are. The reason I am confused by this is that I do not treat women this way. I wasn't raised around men. I never learned how to be “a guy” I guess. I had three sisters, a single mother, and even girl dogs growing up. So I never learned to slobber and become a grunting ape when I hear that a woman is interested in other women. To me that interest is just another part of who they are. Just like being interested in women is another part of who I am. Straight, gay, bi, lesbian, hetero, homo, whatever label that gets used is secondary to the fact that a person is a human being who comes fully-equipped with thoughts, feelings, beliefs, personality, and many unique qualities. Being gay doesn't change that anymore than being straight does. So guys, if you are wondering why a girl that says she's bi doesn't respond to you or want to talk to you after she told you this, it might be because you offended her so deeply by obsessing over this one fact rather than acknowledging and respecting that she is an actual person who just happens to be interested in women in addition to a multitude of other traits that make her unique.

myotherself -> RE: Education (5/31/2011 8:40:28 AM)
okaaaaay...so I waded through the wall o' text and didn't spot a question. What was it you wanted to ask us?

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Education (5/31/2011 9:21:07 AM)
Helpful!VC is helpful. quote: So lately I've been getting a bit of an education from my bi and lesbian female friends on guys. I'm not talking about the neo-feminazi education about how all men are evil pig fucks. What I'm talking about is how most heterosexual guys treat women who are bi and lesbian when they find out about their sexuality. Now just to make this clear so there isn't any confusion: I am a heterosexual man. I like women. I like the thought of lesbians, not gonna lie about that, but what I am talking about is a bit more than that. The way a lot of straight guys react towards bi and lesbian women is usually a completely different way as they were acting toward them before they knew. One moment a perfectly normal conversation could be happening, then at some point a hint or phrase or something indicating the woman is interested in other women and the guy becomes an excitable unintelligible moron suggesting threesomes and asking to watch. Now that may have been a bit over exaggerated (but it's not). But why should it matter whether or not a woman is lesbian or bi? Why should it change the way you speak to them, treat them, or act around them? Do you think it's a compliment to tell a woman how hot it is that she likes other women? Or that you would just love to watch her and another woman make out, or have sex, or anything else? I can promise you they don't take it as a compliment. If anything, I imagine it gets taken just as insulting as any other racist, bigoted, or homophobic thing could be taken. Because that's what it is. It is misogynistic and bigoted. Treating women differently because of their sexual preference is just as discriminatory as calling gay guys “fags”. It's still really offensive even though you didn't meant it to me. Just because you love lesbians doesn't make that behavior any less ignorant or stupid. Think about it this way. You are having a conversation with a woman. Everything is going great, you are getting along and having fun. Then you imply that you are straight. She freaks out, completely veers off the subject and fixates on how hot it is that you are straight. That she wants to watch you go make out with some random woman that she designates as hot. She really wants to watch you two have sex -- completely disregarding the conversation and you as a person. In a moment, you went from being an equal person to her to being a sexual object meant only to be used as a fantasy. In seconds flat, you go from being a human being with a personality, unique attributes, and feelings, to being meat on display. To some this may not sound too bad. Fair enough. But imagine that every single time you ever uttered anything that hinted at your sexuality at all in front of the opposite sex you were treated this way. That you become cautious to be around any member of the opposite sex at all because you don't want to have to hide who you are for fear of becoming a sideshow attraction for their entertainment. Also, a woman that is a lesbian or bisexual is not a slut, or a whore, or a porn star. This one caught me by surprise that apparently quite a few women that are interested in other women are hit with this stigma. Just because someone is interested in more than one sex and/or gender does not mean they will sleep with anyone. It also doesn't mean they want to have a three-or-more-some. All it means is that they may or may not love someone that is the same sex and/or gender as they are. The reason I am confused by this is that I do not treat women this way. I wasn't raised around men. I never learned how to be “a guy” I guess. I had three sisters, a single mother, and even girl dogs growing up. So I never learned to slobber and become a grunting ape when I hear that a woman is interested in other women. To me that interest is just another part of who they are. Just like being interested in women is another part of who I am. Straight, gay, bi, lesbian, hetero, homo, whatever label that gets used is secondary to the fact that a person is a human being who comes fully-equipped with thoughts, feelings, beliefs, personality, and many unique qualities. Being gay doesn't change that anymore than being straight does. So guys, if you are wondering why a girl that says she's bi doesn't respond to you or want to talk to you after she told you this, it might be because you offended her so deeply by obsessing over this one fact rather than acknowledging and respecting that she is an actual person who just happens to be interested in women in addition to a multitude of other traits that make her unique. OP: paragraphs, you need to learn to use them.

mnottertail -> RE: Education (5/31/2011 9:23:29 AM)
One moment a perfectly normal conversation could be happening, then at some point a hint or phrase or something indicating the woman is interested in other women and the guy becomes an excitable unintelligible moron suggesting threesomes and asking to watch. I would be asking to participate. But thanks for the head's up. Viola! Un Homme!

pahunkboy -> RE: Education (5/31/2011 9:24:29 AM)
I thought the OPs post was pretty good. I got lost in the point of it- - anyhow- he put alot of effort into it- and I think he means- treat ladies as people- not sex objects. (time and place for sex..) Give the guy a break.

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Education (5/31/2011 9:27:39 AM)
This is a text-based medium. That means being able to write at least legibly. So no, I won't 'give him a break'.

CreepyStalker -> RE: Education (5/31/2011 9:33:02 AM)
Congratulations, you've come to the conclusion that lesbians are people too. Would you like a rosette with 'non-bigot' emblazoned across it? :-P Keep up the good work and let us know when you've completed Lesson 2: 'Why the line "I'm man enough to turn you!" never never gets you laid'

pahunkboy -> RE: Education (5/31/2011 9:35:10 AM)
The kid is 24 years old. Tough crowd here. egads.

CreepyStalker -> RE: Education (5/31/2011 9:37:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy The kid is 24 years old. What's that got to do with the price of eggs?

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Education (5/31/2011 9:39:36 AM)
You knew that when you signed up, Hunky!!

HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Education (5/31/2011 9:40:46 AM)
Welcome to my world. It used to really bother me, but it just becomes expected after a while. I know what goes through most men's minds when they find out I'm a lesbian, its really not all that different than what goes through my mind when I find out a girl is bi or lesbian. If you recognize that fact, then its a lot less insulting. Now why so many men feel the need to mention their ideas? Well some of that is our fault. A lot of lesbians and bi women do sort of flaunt their sexuality, a lot of us do play the "I get more pussy than you" game. If we present ourselves as primarily sexual beings, well we really have to expect to be treated as such. What gay and bi women have to remember is that as soon as we let it be known that we are into women, we have already begun to feed the most common male fantasy. I asked Hanners and she says she can remember only one man of all those she dealt with who wasn't into the idea of a m/f/f threesome. So one has to be careful how one lets a guy know. Saying "Sorry, I'm gay" when a guy makes a pass at you usually just makes them go away or drop the subject. But saying "Wow! That girl in the red top is hot.", well that's putting the idea into his head, and is inviting the discussion to turn to girl-on-girl sex. I also find it strange that they would get all upset by the topic turning to their sexuality, I mean they brought it up. How else would the guy know? I don't think many straight women make a habit of announcing they are straight, yet a lot of bi women do. They work it into conversations all the time. Its considered very cool for a girl to be bi these days, its almost required to be popular, so they make a point of mentioning it. It seems a little naive to expect a guy you are talking with to just ignore the fact that you have basically said to him "I might just be into fulfilling your favourite fantasy". After all, that's the whole point in telling him, to make him more interested in you. Otherwise I find myself wondering just how these men you are ranting about know the girl is bi or lesbian in the first place. Take me for example. I'm a lesbian. Very very lesbian, with no desire to even experiment with men. I am also completely "out", I don't pretend to be anything other than a lesbian. I am openly living with another woman, I make no attempt to hide that fact. We hold hands in public, we kiss now and then just like any other couple. But, and this is a big but, I don't make a point of telling random people about my sexual preference. I like to hang out in the local park and watch the people playing with their kids and their dogs. I'm on a first name "neighbourhood denizen" friendly basis with most of the regulars. I know their kid's names, their dogs know me, that sort of thing. I've even been asked to keep an eye on their kids while they run to the corner store for freezies or something. But none of them know I'm gay, except for a few who happen to know Hanners and I as a couple. Its just not relevant to my relationship with these people. See what I mean?

LadyConstanze -> RE: Education (5/31/2011 9:42:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy I thought the OPs post was pretty good. I got lost in the point of it- - anyhow- he put alot of effort into it- and I think he means- treat ladies as people- not sex objects. (time and place for sex..) Give the guy a break. You mean he fulfills the minimum requirement of mingling with both sexes, without being shown the door straight away... I fail to see the great revelation in that... 24 years, old enough to vote, marry, raise kids, drive cars, all that stuff, in short an adult...

Lockit -> RE: Education (5/31/2011 10:16:43 AM)
So lately I've been getting a bit of an education from my bi and lesbian female friends on guys. So a younger guy, adult, has recently been made aware of some things he was unaware of before and he questions it and is trying to digest it as well as come out and speak about a wrong he sees. I can see my son doing something similar. A happy, well adjusted male, married with children wanting to right some wrongs. He may not know the history of what women in general have lived through throughout the ages (even with a mother like me), that others might know far better because they are women or are men with different experiences. I would sure hate it if my son got beat up or treated as if he were ignorant or something and was called out for what he was doing wrong, rather than what motivated him and an actual wrong that matters. The OP hasn’t been aware of this for ages. Can he be blamed for that? As a mother, despite how it is said or in what manner, I would be proud of him… my son… that saw what it was like for women or some women and how men often times treat them. I would consider that I did something right in parenting him that resulted in a man that even gave it a thought and then actually saw the wrong and wanted it to be changed. OP… women in general have a difficult time with how they are often times viewed by men. I remember the day when you could be waiting tables and men would just reach out and touch you and you were not allowed to do anything about it but smile pretty so that the customer that is always right, is happy. You could lose your job… as I did, many times, when I smacked/hit/embarrassed some ass hole that touched me. I remember and I see that even today, men haven’t changed much. We women are here for their satisfaction and it is okay to say whatever they might want to say (and sometimes do) because women are devalued by some or many men. I doubt there is a fix for it, as it continues. As individuals, all we can do is take it by an individual basis and assure those in our lives that this won’t be allowed in our little part of the world or life. Do I feel I need a man standing up and defending me or women? No, not really… but I can appreciate the gesture. It is rather refreshing, whether well intended or not (meaning whether he wanted to look good to people or not), to see a man appreciate women rather than join the crowd that likes to objectify them for their pleasure.

Marc2b -> RE: Education (5/31/2011 12:01:03 PM)
Lesbians are the coolest kind of friend that a straight guy can have. First, since it's a given that she ain't gonna do you, the whole "sex" thing doesn't get in the way and complicate the friendship. Second, it's just cool to be cruising down the street together, both of ya checking out the chicks.

mnottertail -> RE: Education (5/31/2011 12:02:06 PM)
Yeah, but I don't need a winggirl tryin to cheapshot me.

PeonForHer -> RE: Education (5/31/2011 12:07:51 PM)
FR, There are people who know better than the OP about the subject of being a lesbian (included in which are lesbians themselves, presumably!). And maybe lots of us know better than he does. But this is a 24 year old male who's discovered it newly, and it's possible that he has a way of communicating what he's learned to a certain group (say other males, of a similar age and background) better than others of us. For that reason I think it was well worth saying and in the way that he said it.

Arpig -> RE: Education (5/31/2011 12:14:44 PM)
quote: Lesbians are the coolest kind of friend that a straight guy can have. First, since it's a given that she ain't gonna do you, the whole "sex" thing doesn't get in the way and complicate the friendship. Second, it's just cool to be cruising down the street together, both of ya checking out the chicks. Hell yeah! This is the truth. Besides the girl watching, they can introduce you to their friends, many of whom are bi or straight. And since it's a lesbian introducing you, you get an automatic Cool Dude rating. You pretty much have to fuck things up yourself to avoid scoring with at least one of them.

LadyConstanze -> RE: Education (5/31/2011 12:35:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lockit Do I feel I need a man standing up and defending me or women? No, not really… but I can appreciate the gesture. It is rather refreshing, whether well intended or not (meaning whether he wanted to look good to people or not), to see a man appreciate women rather than join the crowd that likes to objectify them for their pleasure. [/size] I expect that from any guy who thinks I'll give him the time of the day, I don't think it's anything "special", just like holding open the door for the person after you is not special or a big deal, maybe I expect too much from people, but I know quite a few guys in their early 20's and none of them thinks lesbians are just there to fulfill some guy's fantasies, this should be pretty standard, I mean the fact that lesbians, bisexuals, gays or transsexuals are just people like others should hardly be an earth shattering discovery for somebody with 24, if it is, he's a bit of a late bloomer. Trust me, I'm not being nasty but have standards slipped so much that something that should be a given needs praise?

PeonForHer -> RE: Education (5/31/2011 12:35:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arpig quote: Lesbians are the coolest kind of friend that a straight guy can have. First, since it's a given that she ain't gonna do you, the whole "sex" thing doesn't get in the way and complicate the friendship. Second, it's just cool to be cruising down the street together, both of ya checking out the chicks. Hell yeah! This is the truth. Besides the girl watching, they can introduce you to their friends, many of whom are bi or straight. And since it's a lesbian introducing you, you get an automatic Cool Dude rating. You pretty much have to fuck things up yourself to avoid scoring with at least one of them. [:D] There's that, too.

PeonForHer -> RE: Education (5/31/2011 12:46:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze Trust me, I'm not being nasty but have standards slipped so much that something that should be a given needs praise? Actually, I think they have, I'm afraid. We've seen a lot of misogyny on these boards of late, for instance. Also, while some people in their early and mid 20s I've met have been admirable, a lot of others have been smug little air-headed, reactionary dorks who've bought into every bit of 'hey, like, I'm cool anti-PC' media brainwashing there is going. It's the latter, especially, that I hope the OP can speak to.

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