How do you feel about raising the debt ceiling? (Full Version)

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Marini -> How do you feel about raising the debt ceiling? (4/20/2011 2:51:14 PM)

How do you feel about raising the United State's debt ceiling?

Many are mulling over this subject these days.

I think we should entertain raising the debt ceiling, as long as we can come up with some ways of digging ourselves out of the hole, without punishing those on medicare or raising the age limits on social security.
I am sorry, but everyone is not healthy enough to work full time until the age of 70, and I don't think you should have to.

Why can't we "find" or create sources of revenue in the United States without taking away benefits from people?

Are we so damn bad off in America, we are incapable of raising money through our own ingenuity?
What happened to manufacuring and making shit and growing shit and creating shit?

What about the wonderful global economy and global markets? Can't we make money through the wonderful global economy???

Isn't the United States capable of raising most of this money, with all the educated smart assed business people, MBA's, economic experts, financial experts, experts to the damn experts, and experts on top of fucking experts?

With all these damn geniuses and experts no-one can think of ways to raise money besides stealing social security benefits or taking benefits away from the elderly, or raising taxes sky high on the wealthy?

I have a link! It has really good pie charts that show the percentages of government spending.
Scroll down a bit, and there are about 5 pie charts.
Of course, you don't have to click on the link. [;)]

US Government spending/Charts and Easy to read pie charts

Drastic cuts are not going to be the answer and massive tax increases are not going to be the answer.

Maybe we should raise our debt ceiling AND create detailed and specific measures to pay down our debt at the same time?

All replies welcome.




Fellow -> RE: How do you feel about raising the debt ceiling? (4/20/2011 4:00:51 PM)

I have not done research myself, but  USA respected economists tell me the SS program being broke is a myth. It has secure funding for about 27 years into the future. Medical expenses can be substantially lowered by breaking the medical racket. US spends about twice compared to other developed nations. If the debt ceiling is not raised the US would not collapse. It would force the country into fast radical changes. It is a fantasy, of course. The fact is the debt ceiling will be raised and money printing continues. There will be a lot PR noise around the issue. The course has been set without alternative choice.  The intent is to inflate the US out of problems. Bernanke is going insane, things do not work well.
The recession causes deficit, it is hard to avoid. The only way in "bubblenomics" economy to function smooth would be to create large fund to survive downturns. There was a little after Clinton IT bubble years, but Bush really did not even came out of the recession 2000. It was just illusion property credit bubble that was created.
My point is that without structural changes in the economy the future looks basically bad. The ability to borrow should be used to restructure the economic system.  I guess most people understand it. The huge taxpayer money thrown at the banks (so the can speculate globally) can be put into much better use. It is a leadership issue. If to listen Washington, the recession ended long time ago.



Marini -> RE: How do you feel about raising the debt ceiling? (4/20/2011 4:06:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

I have not done research myself, but  USA respected economists tell me the SS program being broke is a myth. It has secure funding for about 27 years into the future. Medical expenses can be substantially lowered by breaking the medical racket. US spends about twice compared to other developed nations. If the debt ceiling is not raised the US would not collapse. It would force the country into fast radical changes. It is a fantasy, of course. The fact is the debt ceiling will be raised and money printing continues. There will be a lot PR noise around the issue. The course has been set without alternative choice.  The intent is to inflate the US out of problems. Bernanke is going insane, things do not work well.
The recession causes deficit, it is hard to avoid. The only way in "bubblenomics" economy to function smooth would be to create large fund to survive downturns. There was a little after Clinton IT bubble years, but Bush really did not even came out of the recession 2000. It was just illusion property credit bubble that was created.

My point is that without structural changes in the economy the future looks basically bad. The ability to borrow should be used to restructure the economic system. I guess most people understand it. The huge taxpayer money thrown at the banks (so the can speculate globally) can be put into much better use. It is a leadership issue. If to listen Washington, the recession ended long time ago.


Great post Fellow.
Structural changes must be made, but what sort of changes?
Do you honestly think the US would/will restructure the economic system?



pahunkboy -> RE: How do you feel about raising the debt ceiling? (4/20/2011 5:44:06 PM)

I think we should get rid of the debt ceiling.  Why not be honest about it?  We raise it every time...so why go thru the motions.


I am against austerity.   My brother called- complained how mad it is....   said... "we are at war with everybody".


Unless there is serious cuts to war spending-  I don't consider it necessary to cut back on essentials.  Ditto to bail outs and corporate welfare.

Silver  $45.37   Gold  $1504.50



Fellow -> RE: How do you feel about raising the debt ceiling? (4/20/2011 6:11:21 PM)

quote:

Structural changes must be made, but what sort of changes?
Do you honestly think the US would/will restructure the economic system?


The US really does not have other choice. There were 600 people applying for one McDonald worker position in some places yesterday. It should put somebody into thinking mode. There were substantial reforms introduced during the Great Depression years. In principle, it can be done. Most things need to be changed: financial system, tax structure, the government should be reduced (massive waste eliminated), and so on...  even the election system does not work.  Wars do not work, the energy prices are going up.
My guess is the change will be forced from outside. The system seems to become unstable, the next finance collapse could be very close.
Huge money printing hides the real value of the assets that could be much less. There are signals of bond market troubles, unemployment remains unchanged, food stamp usage goes constantly up, the US corporations hire abroad but cut labor in the country, and so on. They can not keep interest rate down forever. As soon as the last goes up the financial trouble gets very bad. One theory people are throwing around is that there will be a global attempt to solve money problems. I am not sure.  It would take years of negotiations and it is hard to get China on board. Russia would probably attempt to form (with China) counter-balance to Western bankers interest.
The question is how stable the system is. Plutocracy systems can be in principle stable for long time as shown historically. Although, they have taken generations to develop and the social structure has been very different compared to the USA.



pahunkboy -> RE: How do you feel about raising the debt ceiling? (4/20/2011 7:06:38 PM)

Fellow,   it wont be pretty. 



KenDckey -> RE: How do you feel about raising the debt ceiling? (4/20/2011 7:11:27 PM)

I don't think we should raise the ceiling.    I think we should force Congress to learn to live within its means.



Marini -> RE: How do you feel about raising the debt ceiling? (4/20/2011 7:33:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

quote:

Structural changes must be made, but what sort of changes?
Do you honestly think the US would/will restructure the economic system?


The US really does not have other choice. There were 600 people applying for one McDonald worker position in some places yesterday. It should put somebody into thinking mode.

600 people applying for 1 job at McDonalds in the United States?
OMG, we are far worse off, than even I imagined.

I guess all that unbridled outsourcing is starting to pay off!

People should already be in the thinking mode, or they are lost sheep or zombies.
The United States is sinking faster than the Titanic.

There were substantial reforms introduced during the Great Depression years. In principle, it can be done. Most things need to be changed: financial system, tax structure, the government should be reduced (massive waste eliminated), and so on...  even the election system does not work.  Wars do not work, the energy prices are going up.
My guess is the change will be forced from outside. The system seems to become unstable, the next finance collapse could be very close.


We are damn close to the next Great Depression, and if we don't get substantial reforms soon, we are going down.
Everything needs to be overhauled.
This current system is a failure, and trying to fix it ain't working.

Huge money printing hides the real value of the assets that could be much less. There are signals of bond market troubles, unemployment remains unchanged, food stamp usage goes constantly up, the US corporations hire abroad but cut labor in the country, and so on. They can not keep interest rate down forever. As soon as the last goes up the financial trouble gets very bad. One theory people are throwing around is that there will be a global attempt to solve money problems. I am not sure.  It would take years of negotiations and it is hard to get China on board. Russia would probably attempt to form (with China) counter-balance to Western bankers interest.
The question is how stable the system is. Plutocracy systems can be in principle stable for long time as shown historically. Although, they have taken generations to develop and the social structure has been very different compared to the USA.



Thank you for another thoughtful post.
I never thought I would be living to see what is going on and what will be certainly going on in a few years.



pahunkboy -> RE: How do you feel about raising the debt ceiling? (4/20/2011 7:39:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

I don't think we should raise the ceiling.    I think we should force Congress to learn to live within its means.


That is a profound statement- considering you are one of the guys they will want to cut.   (programs you benefit from)



pahunkboy -> RE: How do you feel about raising the debt ceiling? (4/20/2011 7:43:15 PM)

Medical expenses can be substantially lowered by breaking the medical racket/snip


For sure.   The for profit motive is destroying us.  A $12 rx in the 80s now $300.  I am supposedly insured but am arguing with my insurance so that they cover it.   I have to take them to the PA state ins commission over this 6 month fight.    Consider tho- that even if regular inflation factored in- I would be better off to have paid cash -   $12,  (+ regular inflation) then to have so called insurance.



KenDckey -> RE: How do you feel about raising the debt ceiling? (4/20/2011 7:44:19 PM)

My pay has already been cut $250 (net) a month now.   That is the price you pay for service to the people.   And no.   I don't get full social security (Fed Law)




Marini -> RE: How do you feel about raising the debt ceiling? (4/20/2011 7:51:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

My pay has already been cut $250 (net) a month now.   That is the price you pay for service to the people.   And no.   I don't get full social security (Fed Law)




Ken, with many out of work and this economy suffering, NOW is not the time to even THINK about cutting medicare, medicaid or social security benefits.

Bless you for serving our country, may you see a better day.

I shudder to think about what could happen to many people, if these benefits were cut.



pahunkboy -> RE: How do you feel about raising the debt ceiling? (4/20/2011 7:58:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

My pay has already been cut $250 (net) a month now.   That is the price you pay for service to the people.   And no.   I don't get full social security (Fed Law)





I am not trying to be rude-  but the living with in the budget means cuts to programs-  not cuts to war spending.  



Jeffff -> RE: How do you feel about raising the debt ceiling? (4/20/2011 8:13:40 PM)

If we don't raise the debt ceiling, we will be unable to pay our bills.

Once you stop paying your bills, people and by people I mean other country's will not want to lend us money.

This will have a disastrous effect. Credit, already hard to get, will become impossible.

Not just for you and me, but for business too. Rates will skyrocket for mortgages if you can still get one. Small and large business will be unable to borrow. The states we all live in will be unable to borrow.

This is not about shutting down the national parks, this would be cataclysmic.



pahunkboy -> RE: How do you feel about raising the debt ceiling? (4/20/2011 8:17:11 PM)

^  Jefff will pony up his credit card-  so we can relax.



Jeffff -> RE: How do you feel about raising the debt ceiling? (4/20/2011 8:18:20 PM)

This is all on me!



pahunkboy -> RE: How do you feel about raising the debt ceiling? (4/20/2011 8:34:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

This is all on me!


Cool.   Ken just got back from the Civil War.    Cover his cuts too.



Termyn8or -> RE: How do you feel about raising the debt ceiling? (4/20/2011 9:31:15 PM)

Hey hey hey, stop putting down the country. Everything they do is right no matter what it is. All you people can think about is your own puny existence and you just don't care that somewhere out there is someone who needs that money for a new ivory backscratcher. You want to eat damner every day while poor millionaires can't afford to buy that island yet. Have you no sympathy at all ?

No wonder this world is in so much trouble.

T^T



Owner59 -> RE: How do you feel about raising the debt ceiling? (4/20/2011 9:49:41 PM)

Not as bad as I would feel about defaulting.



Termyn8or -> RE: How do you feel about raising the debt ceiling? (4/20/2011 9:59:23 PM)

We ARE going to default, don't you see ? People told me. You file banhrupcy every seven years whether you need to or not. That way you steal that which you have borrowed. So the plan is going along just fine. We just have to make it look good for now.

I've realized that in the last year or so, default is part of the plan. We owe 99 gillion bucks. We ain't gonna pay and we are big and bad enough that they can't come and take our shit. And the booty will be in the Bahamas. It's called bounty in the law. (UCC, Trading With The Enemy Act....)

It's the same old thing, it's just done a bit differently now. The people will suffer and the bounty will leave the county. Although it has a new twist, it is business as usual. Who cares about the US D&B rating when we got more nukes than almost anyone else ? Got anything to say about it shut up. They know what they're doing.

T^T



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