RE: MRI's and political leanings (Full Version)

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Marc2b -> RE: MRI's and political leanings (4/12/2011 12:26:31 PM)

No need to apologize. I'm just spouting off on one of my button issues.




Hillwilliam -> RE: MRI's and political leanings (4/12/2011 1:40:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

The brain is an evolving structure, As long as it stays active, new connections are constantly being formed.


I might be wrong but I have heard, more than once, that this process stops around the age of twenty-five.

quote:

Young people tend to be more fearless (TEND OK).

Could that be a reason why they also tend to have more liberal leanings?

Just a question for further research. A long-term linear study (30-40 years) using the same subjects and a questionaire that isn't exclusive to but includes their political leanings might show some interesting data. (or it might not LOL)

Political leanings tend to change over time. Might the supposedly associated brain centers change as well?


I believe that one of the reasons people tend to become more conservative as they grow older is that they have accumulated their wealth (house, savings, etc) and become more settled (it's hard to party all the time when you've got kids to look after, a lawn to mow, etc) and so seek to conserve what their more risk taking youth produced. When you are young and have very little, change is good since change represents an improvement. When you are older and have acquired the means and material you need to live well, change is bad since change represents a deterioration of the status quo.



As for the process stopping, brain injury research (remember a certain congresswoman) has shown that the development slows tremendously at about 25 but it continues.

That means maybe there really IS hope for that idiot cousin that everyone has, the one that is 35 and still lives with his mom LOL.




Kirata -> RE: MRI's and political leanings (4/12/2011 9:04:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

The brain is an evolving structure, As long as it stays active, new connections are constantly being formed.

I might be wrong but I have heard, more than once, that this process stops around the age of twenty-five.

The brain is not fully developed until approximately age 25 in males, a little earlier in females. The last part to mature is the pre-frontal cortex. But the structure of the mature brain continues to be dynamic: What fires together, wires together. For example, mindfulness meditation is associated with changes in gray matter concentration in brain regions involved in learning and memory processes, emotion regulation, self-referential processing, and perspective taking. So, there is an unanswered chicken or the egg question with regard to the findings referenced in the OP.

K.




kdsub -> RE: MRI's and political leanings (4/12/2011 9:20:17 PM)

I certainly have no medical proof but I’ve seen too many people change their political affiliations over the years to believe in that study.

I would associate youth with liberalism

Conservatism with middle age and family responsibilities and tax worries.

And a good mix of political beliefs 55 and over depending on financial situations.

Maybe the changing beliefs themselves stimulate parts of the brains in different ways.

Butch




tweakabelle -> RE: MRI's and political leanings (4/12/2011 11:13:52 PM)

Relax every one! As far as I'm aware, no one has yet established a causal link between any genetic inheritance and any human behaviour. There are, to my mind, compelling reasons for believing that no one ever will either. So it really doesn't matter what genes you have. There's no more likelihood of a 'liberal'/'republican'/'socialist'/'fascist'/whatever gene than there is of a gay gene or a bicycle seat sniffer gene.

I find it's far more fruitful to question deterministic theories than to apply them. Getting past them, and the whole tedious nature vs. nurture debate opens up consideration of far more interesting approaches to understanding human behaviour.




Kirata -> RE: MRI's and political leanings (4/12/2011 11:33:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

As far as I'm aware, no one has yet established a causal link between any genetic inheritance and any human behaviour... So it really doesn't matter what genes you have.

Behavioral Genetics

Hebb characterizes the nature-nurture controversy as an argument about whether the area of a rectangle depends more on its width or its length. But this is not the same as claiming that it is meaningless to inquire into the extent to which one or the other may contribute to specific behaviors.

K.




tweakabelle -> RE: MRI's and political leanings (4/13/2011 12:14:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

As far as I'm aware, no one has yet established a causal link between any genetic inheritance and any human behaviour... So it really doesn't matter what genes you have.

Behavioral Genetics

Hebb characterizes the nature-nurture controversy as an argument about whether the area of a rectangle depends more on its width or its length. But this is not the same as claiming that it is meaningless to inquire into the extent to which one or the other may contribute to specific behaviors.

K.



Far be it from me to discourage anyone from doing any research that tickles their fancy. So please feel free to enquire away to your heart's content.




outhere69 -> RE: MRI's and political leanings (4/13/2011 7:15:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
I certainly have no medical proof but I’ve seen too many people change their political affiliations over the years to believe in that study.

I would associate youth with liberalism

Butch

I've run in to tons of conservative youngins, especially out here in Ohio.  Even in CA there are large campus Republican and fundamentalist groups.




kdsub -> RE: MRI's and political leanings (4/13/2011 8:47:24 AM)

I'll bet if you went to MOST any high school or college in America and survey students on political affiliation you will find the majority will describe themselves as liberal... at least more liberal than their parents..now just my feelings from experience. I've no statistical proof other then my children and those I've known along with news stories over the years. Most children have been provided for all their lives and don’t understand that money does not grow on trees therefore believing that money is not important when it comes to good deeds...It is what we have taught them…which is as we should.

I was very liberal myself as a youth. I didn't understand how hard it could be to make my way in life and soon I was more worried about providing for my family and paying bills then providing with taxes for others. I figured they could just work as hard and long as I or they deserved what they got.

Then as I became more secure and older I regained some of my liberalism but it was more tempered then in my youth. I wanted more to help people help them selves then to support them on tax dollars.

I find my friends went through some of the same changes as I over the years so that is how may thinking is leaning.

Butch




Kana -> RE: MRI's and political leanings (4/13/2011 8:53:11 AM)

“Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has no heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains.”
—Winston Churchill




mnottertail -> RE: MRI's and political leanings (4/13/2011 8:54:24 AM)

Advice he did not take (his own).




Kana -> RE: MRI's and political leanings (4/13/2011 9:01:33 AM)

Well, this is one of those disputed quotes-various incarnations of it have been kicking around since about 1600 and have been attributed to sources as far ranging as Clemenceau and Disraeli, but they all are variations on the same theme.

As for Winston, didn't he just short-circuit the process and become a conservative around 25?




mnottertail -> RE: MRI's and political leanings (4/13/2011 9:03:24 AM)

and a liberal around 60.




Kana -> RE: MRI's and political leanings (4/13/2011 9:09:52 AM)

Early onset Alzheimer's?


(I jest, I jest)





kalikshama -> RE: MRI's and political leanings (4/13/2011 9:28:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

From your link:

Meanwhile, self-described conservatives are more likely to have a larger amygdala, an almond-shaped area that is associated with fear and anxiety.

Yes, that's what Holly Bailey says. Here's what the researchers say:

Based on what is known about the functions of those two brain regions, the structural differences are consistent with reports showing a greater ability of liberals to cope with conflicting information and a greater ability of conservatives to recognize a threat, the researchers say.

Of further interest, though possibly inconvenient from a certain point of view...

recent research using monkeys has revealed that heightened ACC activity (generally associated with reduced dopamine utilization) reduces capacity to learn how to use visual cues for anticipating rewards... Evidence for the role of the ACC as having an error detection function comes from consistent observations of error-related negativity (ERN) uniquely generated within the ACC upon error occurrences... [but] It is worth noting at this point that no-one has clearly demonstrated that the ERN comes from the ACC. Source localization of ERP components is a notoriously messy business. The ERN could come from any number of brain regions, perhaps several. In light of this, it is striking that patients with lateral PFC damage (not medial) showed reduced ERNs.

Actually, the ACC presents quite a few mysteries that Holly's simplistic characterization "associated with fear and anxiety" fails to convey.

Another puzzle is the finding of decreased dorsal ACC activation and increased rostroventral ACC activation in induced sadness and depression (Mayberg et al., 1999).

Shall we interpret the cited findings as possibly indicating that liberals are depressed? [:D]

And more importantly, does this mean that Yahoo News tells lies intentionally?

References in order of excerpts:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/04/110407121337.htm
http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Anterior_cingulate_cortex
http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/126/10/2119.full

Thank you. Carry on.

K.




Kirata - thanks for taking the time to untangle the spin.




Hillwilliam -> RE: MRI's and political leanings (4/13/2011 11:35:41 AM)

One thing we have to realize on this is that we have learned more about neuroanatomy and brain function in humans in the last 30 years than was learned in the previous 30 centuries.

It's a brand new science that shows a huge amount of promise. It also has a huge potential for misuse.




kdsub -> RE: MRI's and political leanings (4/13/2011 5:00:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

One thing we have to realize on this is that we have learned more about neuroanatomy and brain function in humans in the last 30 years than was learned in the previous 30 centuries.

It's a brand new science that shows a huge amount of promise. It also has a huge potential for misuse.


I agree but it is worrisome. Would it disturb you to find out you really have no free thought in your actions…that you are hard wired at birth to say…be a conservative or liberal?

How could or would this partial information be used. Could you see children being marked as this or that at birth.

I am hoping that the differences in our brains are formed as we go along according to our thoughts as we think them not before.

I can only hope anyway… I want to be pissed at people because of their thoughts not because of their brain configuration.

Of course it is a bag of worms but must be seen through like it or not…we must know.

Butch




Aneirin -> RE: MRI's and political leanings (4/13/2011 6:24:15 PM)

And just to think this whole study could have been nothing more than a bunch of researchers looking for a good enough reason to get funding, to pay their wages, which could be indicative of other largely useless studies that have been reported on or are ongoing.

It could very well have been a case of,'let's make our study potentially political to attract larger amounts of funding from political bodies'

Is anyone here involved in such studies as these and can comment on the study conception and how funding is applied for and what happens to that funding, what does it pay for ?




thishereboi -> RE: MRI's and political leanings (4/14/2011 7:03:27 AM)

20 years ago I was a tree hugging liberal, today I am conservative. Does this mean the size of my brain parts have been changing?




thishereboi -> RE: MRI's and political leanings (4/14/2011 7:05:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

quote:

Meanwhile, self-described conservatives are more likely to have a larger amygdala, an almond-shaped area that is associated with fear and anxiety.



I didn't need science to tell me that, for that was already observed from this forum, people whose politics dwell on conservative ideals are full of fear, it is plain to see.

I wonder where the conspirators fit in, because conspiracy has also been linked to fear and anxiety.



In that case you better tell me just what I am afraid of, because I can't come up with anything.




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