RE: nazi uniform (Full Version)

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devotedsub4Dom -> RE: nazi uniform (5/8/2006 7:15:50 AM)

I understand the fantasy and power of this type of role play, however what is respresents is repulsive to me beyond words. As a sub is if I role played with someone wearing a nazi uniform they would not look like a Dominant to me, I would see a monster who wanted to murder me, my children, my husband, my parents, my grandparents, my aunts, my uncles, my cousins, my neighbors and everyone else I know. I would have a hard time respecting someone who wanted to dress up in this uniform, 6 MILLION PEOPLE DIED at the hands of people wearing this uniform.

I know a lot of people will say I am not seeing the "roleplay fantasy" aspect of this and taking it too literly, I completely understand that it's a fantasy and that it could be a very powerful one for many people but if I was a Dominant and wanted to role play in this way, I would hope I would think about how much this might offend my fellow human beings and would find another uniform or role that would give me a similar feeling but not represent something so vile.

This topic got me to thinking about other role play situations that I would find offensive or unacceptable and I couldn't really think of anything other than someone role playing as a murderer and I likened roleplaying as a nazi to role playing as someone like Charles Manson or Ted Bundy. Of course these men weren't Dominant men they were crazy murderers just like the nazis.



Moloch -> RE: nazi uniform (5/8/2006 7:43:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: devotedsub4Dom

I understand the fantasy and power of this type of role play, however what is respresents is repulsive to me beyond words. As a sub is if I role played with someone wearing a nazi uniform they would not look like a Dominant to me, I would see a monster who wanted to murder me, my children, my husband, my parents, my grandparents, my aunts, my uncles, my cousins, my neighbors and everyone else I know. I would have a hard time respecting someone who wanted to dress up in this uniform, 6 MILLION PEOPLE DIED at the hands of people wearing this uniform.

I know a lot of people will say I am not seeing the "roleplay fantasy" aspect of this and taking it too literly, I completely understand that it's a fantasy and that it could be a very powerful one for many people but if I was a Dominant and wanted to role play in this way, I would hope I would think about how much this might offend my fellow human beings and would find another uniform or role that would give me a similar feeling but not represent something so vile.

This topic got me to thinking about other role play situations that I would find offensive or unacceptable and I couldn't really think of anything other than someone role playing as a murderer and I likened roleplaying as a nazi to role playing as someone like Charles Manson or Ted Bundy. Of course these men weren't Dominant men they were crazy murderers just like the nazis.


Oh please it is no more repulsive than the Soviet Uniform.  And oh u got the number wrong too it goes well into the double digits. Why do you have a problem with nazi roleplay? If you hate them so much let people wear the nazi uniform! they are MOCKING IT!!!



gestapololita -> RE: nazi uniform (5/8/2006 8:10:05 AM)

thank u for bringing up the soviet uniform...
i uderstand peoples negative reaction to my kink, as it's already been stated, this is just my kink and not my politics.
i understand why a nazi uniform is unacceptable...
but the nazi uniform being bad and the soviet beining ok is a bit baffeling..
how many deaths was Stalin responsible for ?!?!
and communist china never did anything bad to any one did they?!?!
but it's ok to wear a communist uniform, t shirts with the hammer and sycle or the red star are popular and availible in high street stores
i find these double standards hard to get my head round



Moloch -> RE: nazi uniform (5/8/2006 8:15:20 AM)

Over 12 million non-Russians died in gulags.



meatcleaver -> RE: nazi uniform (5/8/2006 8:29:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gestapololita

thank u for bringing up the soviet uniform...
i uderstand peoples negative reaction to my kink, as it's already been stated, this is just my kink and not my politics.
i understand why a nazi uniform is unacceptable...
but the nazi uniform being bad and the soviet beining ok is a bit baffeling..
how many deaths was Stalin responsible for ?!?!
and communist china never did anything bad to any one did they?!?!
but it's ok to wear a communist uniform, t shirts with the hammer and sycle or the red star are popular and availible in high street stores
i find these double standards hard to get my head round



Murders, masacres and butchering are a strange phenomena, some seem more acceptable than others. You see it everyday in the newspapers, some murders get a paragraph and for some unknown reason others create weeks of headline outrage.



Proprietrix -> RE: nazi uniform (5/8/2006 8:33:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gestapololita
but it's ok to wear a communist uniform, t shirts with the hammer and sycle or the red star are popular and availible in high street stores
i find these double standards hard to get my head round


I just wanted to make it clear that for me personally, (can't speak for others), I find one as offensive as the other. There is no double standard. I don't like any symbol that represents hate, discrimination, prejudice, and non-consensual violence. I'm also not into the rape role-play because of what it represents.
I'm not saying you (or anyone) doesn't have the right to do it. And if it were happening at a public play party or dungeon, I would not complain about it, or confront anyone doing it, or cause any kind of scene. I would simply leave quietly. Anytime I encounter something which I find offensive, so long as it is not infringing on me and mine's liberty, I just go elsewhere.
I do have to wonder though, if one knows that their chosen scene is highly offensive to the majority of the folks in the dungeon, why do they want to have that particular scene at the dungeon? Is the goal to push the limits of acceptance and tolerance? Is it for the shock value? Is it to try to enforce the point that one kink is as good as another? I'm not making any judgment here, I truly am curious what the goal is. And in doing scenes that others find offensive, is the goal being accomplished?



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: nazi uniform (5/8/2006 8:40:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Proprietrix
why do they want to have that particular scene at the dungeon? Is the goal to push the limits of acceptance and tolerance? Is it for the shock value? Is it to try to enforce the point that one kink is as good as another? I'm not making any judgment here, I truly am curious what the goal is. And in doing scenes that others find offensive, is the goal being accomplished?

Sometimes it is to feed off of the energy of the reactors- that's part of what being an exhibitionist is all about.  I'm an exhibitionist but it's contextual, I want the people who see me to be intrigued or enjoying it.  If I'm getting negative vibes, it's not a good high for me.

It might also be the ONLY place they can go and feel comfortable in their garb in public. Few people have as good a space to do kinky play AND socialize in their own homes.



kneltandtied -> RE: nazi uniform (5/8/2006 9:13:43 AM)

i find i have to respectfully disagree with John Warren and RavenMuse here. Having been bought up in the South East of england where the bnp have made their headquarters(tossers all!).the nazi uniforms,insigna,and salute,are not part of history that can (or should) in my opinion ,be taken lightly.It is not something that can publically be negated by simply taking the" use it as a kink"     and,"treat it as another piece of cloth and it will become such".,philosophy.Sadly some evil's don't simply dissappear by wearing an old uniform and "playing torture".
Unfortunatly nazi ideology is not just part of our global hstory..it remains part of our global politics .If we choose to use it as part of our kinky play..then each to his own. i guess i find it difficult to imagine a scene where my dom was dressed as a nazi officer and i knew that he was in the mindset of "genocide is the way to go."....no excitement..just gentle tears.

kep safe
knelt



JohnWarren -> RE: nazi uniform (5/8/2006 9:32:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smythe

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

I'll just note that far from supporting the Nazis, wearing such outfits is a way of reducing their significance. I have a feeling that the old Third Reichers are spinning in their graves to see their beloved symbols reduced to masterbative fodder.





Since John Warren always seems to know everything, it's putting icing on the cake to say this, but AHHH, this is a great point.

And in agreeing with you, I feel more in line with Mel Brooks (Springtime for Hitler), always my moral shining star!
Smythe


Far from "everything" but one tends to pick up a few details in a long and largely misspent life.

A side note concerning the real nutcases who seriously don the Nazi regalia:  A few years back, I was covering a KKK march in Hattiesburg, MS.  It was a pitiful display with only four of the lost souls daring to show their faces (I believe they had to import two from out of state).  Anyway, while they were getting ready for their march, they were approached by an American Nazi in full fig who wanted to join their demonstration.  They turned him away.  The reason?  They didn't want to "demean" their protest.

Ya gotta sink a long way when the KKK is ashamed to associate with ya. 



EbonyFtshGoddess -> RE: nazi uniform (5/8/2006 10:38:20 AM)

ok..

i'll say this.

yes we ALL know the nazis sucked.. that doesn't need any clarification.

however.. their uniforms kicked ASS.

helllloooo.. they were designed by Hugo Boss.

a prominent label that many men wear today. obviously it was designed for it's appeal .. and that was part of the ruse that nazis used..

they were WELL dressed.. and well dressed people couldn't  be ill meaning.. right?

wrong..

the appeal isn't from the atrocities the nazis commited (even though i do  know a few germans that get off on that and a few jewish males that get off on that too seriously.. i own one israeli male that gets off on nazi scenes that i WILL NOT be a part of)..

for uniform fetishists.. it's about the tailoring, the design, the cut.. everything about the uni- NOT the ideals.

just because they were scary nazi scum pigs.. and commited COUNTLESS atrocities, DOESN'T mean they were poorly tailored.

do i find what  they did sexy?.. no..

do i find their UNIFORMS sexy?.

fuck yeah..

i dont find KKK ghost sheets sexy, but if they wore nicely tailored uniforms then i may.

it's not a race thing, or a "we love what the nazi's did" thing.. it's more of. the fact that it's a nicely made uniform.. sorta thing..

i know some will disagree..and some will agree.

i have tops that wear east german nazi uniforms WITHOUT the swastika armband.

http://www.ebonyfetishgoddess.com/public/gallery15/fullsize/006.jpg

he wears a heart armband.. to show appreciation for the uniform.. but NOT what they did.

that's what' makes it nasty.. the swastika. one uses a heart armband to show the love for the uniform NOT the ideals.. another opts to not use any armband.

without the armband. . FEW people recognize it as a nazi uni.

for the people that feel offended.. i can entirely understand it.. and i see the symbolism behind it.. i really and truly do.

but for people that have a fetish for uniforms.. like i do.. and like many others do.. then the uniform represents only the uniform..  not the ideals





RapturesDaddy -> RE: nazi uniform (5/8/2006 11:13:21 AM)

What the hell does it matter???

Take away the swastika, and you are left with a typical neo-facisct / communist style military uniform...

Its not the actions of the people who wore them, (Yes the gestapo DID have dress uniforms BUT were often plainclothes, and most people are referring to the Schtzstafflle uniforms <SS> who were an elite militarty unit charged with everything from combat to guarding the KZ's) but the visual appearance. Black is a color that tends to look well on someone. Most of the Soviet unis never looked as menacing or as "good" as the German uniforms, becuase they were drab and boring, but they still had the elements of menacing appearace. Hell torture gardens latex uniforms are modeled after Soviet designs. And what about the "mein kommandante" line from lip service? Does this not have facist overtomes in the design? No one called mine a Nazi when she wore her lip service dress to the last purg we went to.

So take away the swastika and frankly all of your arguments on it being over the top are pretty much null and void in my opinion.

Ebony you couldnt be more right.




mnottertail -> RE: nazi uniform (5/8/2006 11:16:57 AM)

I wouldn't mind dressing like Herman Goering, that man owned some CLEAN RAGS!!!!!!!!!!


Ron



RapturesDaddy -> RE: nazi uniform (5/8/2006 11:18:26 AM)

Except you would look like a facist version of boss hogg if you did that.....

Good luck finding a subbie that would get off on that lol.



gestapololita -> RE: nazi uniform (5/8/2006 11:20:04 AM)

i wasnt refering to you in the soviet rant i went on, it was aimed at society in general, sorry it ended up aimed at you! i didnt mean o get all argumentative then, im not here for that.
i'm not really in to public play. and would hate to offened people (which probably sounds really odd coming from me!) so i've never got involved in a public Nazi role play, and therefore can't answer that question.
and i dont feel i'm being juged here at all, I asked for opinions and got them!
and they have been really intresting, and thank you for your honesty and straight talking...
i'v just always wondered why im turned on by something i hate...



Moloch -> RE: nazi uniform (5/8/2006 11:21:05 AM)

Look, any of you watch the Hitler Channel err... I mean Histrory channel  [8D]  Hitler had the uniforms made they way they are to be a symbol of power and pride. Those unoforms look really good!  If you gonna bitch about something like that go over to Iraq and tell our troops to stop wearing their helmets because they look just like the helemts that Germans used during WW2.
Its a friggin uniform, get over it.



meatcleaver -> RE: nazi uniform (5/8/2006 11:24:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gestapololita

i'v just always wondered why im turned on by something i hate...



Fantasy helps us to go to hell for a visit, it doesn't mean we want to live there.



NakedOnMyChain -> RE: nazi uniform (5/8/2006 12:01:20 PM)

I'll admit that the Nazi uniform thing is a big fantasy of mine.  I've never actually acted it out, but I find the thought of a scene with me as a submissive and the top in that particular uniform very appealing.  It would be particularly intense because my husband speaks German quite well.

I find it interesting that something I find so abhorrent in principle, I can find so intriguingly sexual.  It's odd what our conscious brain tells us is wrong while our inner psyche is secretly yearning for it.



EbonyFtshGoddess -> RE: nazi uniform (5/8/2006 12:32:16 PM)

quote:

What the hell does it matter???

Take away the swastika, and you are left with a typical neo-facisct / communist style military uniform...

Its not the actions of the people who wore them, (Yes the gestapo DID have dress uniforms BUT were often plainclothes, and most people are referring to the Schtzstafflle uniforms who were an elite militarty unit charged with everything from combat to guarding the KZ's) but the visual appearance. Black is a color that tends to look well on someone. Most of the Soviet unis never looked as menacing or as "good" as the German uniforms, becuase they were drab and boring, but they still had the elements of menacing appearace. Hell torture gardens latex uniforms are modeled after Soviet designs. And what about the "mein kommandante" line from lip service? Does this not have facist overtomes in the design? No one called mine a Nazi when she wore her lip service dress to the last purg we went to.

So take away the swastika and frankly all of your arguments on it being over the top are pretty much null and void in my opinion.

Ebony you couldnt be more right.


uni fetishists can see past the outrage.

sorry.. something sexy is something sexy.

if someone puts a swastika on their uni then.. well.. they're making a different statement and i'm not gonna defend it.

if someone replaces or neglects the swastika (either with a heart.. i've seen iron crosses used.. i've seen celtic crosses. i've seen TG armbands used instead..)..

it's not the same.

yes it STILL does hold horrific memories.. but damn.. so do cars and car accidents.. not that i'm comparing car accidents to the holocaust.. but hell.. ALL cars don't take away the fact that SOME cars are worse in accidents.

uniform fetishists could give a FUCK less about what the nazis did.. their uniforms were hot and they turn us on.

we don't support nazi ideals.. we don't (for the most part.. myself included).. get off on the "atrocity" aspect..

we like the design of the uniform.. it appeals to our fetishes.. our love of uni lines..

has nothing to do with nazi ideals.

and this is coming from someone dating a german skin.. not a nationalist.. rather he's a trad skin.. and we both love unis.

the thing is.. germany wants to put the atrocities behind them more than anyone!.. trust me..

it's illegal i believe to wear a WWII uni in public in germany..

they should feel uncomfortable..

it's worse than yelling n*gg*r* on the street.. or whatever.. a whole lot of people suffered and insufferable fate..

still doesnt meant they weren't well dressed.

uniform fetishists can't deny the appeal.. but it doesnt mean that MOST of us condone what they did






Proprietrix -> RE: nazi uniform (5/8/2006 12:45:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gestapololita
i wasnt refering to you in the soviet rant i went on, it was aimed at society in general


I didn't take anything personally. ;)

I almost see this thread turning into 2 discussions: one about the Nazi fetish, and one about people who have a uniform fetish. I see people saying that removing the armband would make it just another typical uniform. I'm wondering though, for those who have the Nazi scene fetish (as opposed to just a uniform fetish), isn't the armband an intricate part of the fantasy scene? Because that armband is what makes the whole Nazi interrogation/torture scene more than just a uniform fetish. Those I've known who want the Nazi fet scene aren't overly focused on the uniform fetish per say, but the immense amount of power that the Nazis held. Part of what makes specifically a Nazi scene so intriguing to those interested is the taboo, the evil, the darkness, the immoral, and that huge amount of power. It really doesn't have so much to do with a general uniform fetish. In that sense, wouldn't the armband be an intricate part of the scene itself because *it* is what takes the kink out of the realm of a uniform fetish and into the realm of a Nazi scene?



mathiasdomm -> RE: nazi uniform (5/8/2006 2:26:22 PM)

There was a comment earlier about mass murders and genocides being so much easier on the mind and the stomach than the things we read in the headlines.  "One man rapes and murders one small girl.  Details on page six."

It's a much more intimate thing when one person rapes and kills his neighbors daughter.  That's what freaks us out about it. There's room to comprehend the whole thing. 

And to quote my favorite comedian Eddie Izzard (yep, I"m quoting comedians as references for the Holocaust.): 

"Hitler killed fifteen million people.  And you don't know how to deal with that.  You know, you kill one person, they put you in prison forever.  Kill five people, they send you to Texas, hit you in the head with a brick.  That's what they do.  Kill twenty people, they look at you through a small window forever, and beyond that we can't really deal with it.  Hitler killed twenty million people.  We just don't understand it.  You're almost like "well done." Your diary must look awful boring, death death death death, lunch, death death, spot of tea, death death death, quick shower and off to bed.  And Hitler was a vegetarian painter." 

I'm with John Warren and Ravenmuse on this one.  Symbols only work when they mean something.  It'd be great if all an SS uniform meant was that somebody had a role play kink. That'd be such a lesson for history.  Of course, I like it too because we'd be the enforcers of history.  They walk over to the Janjaweed in Darfur and say, "You see those guys?*Raven, IronBear and LuckyAlbatross wave* You should see what they did to the Nazi legacy.  If you guys don't cut it out, they're going to be auctioning off your clothes at Helga's House of Pain."   Is this a new conflict resolution theory.  Possibly.  I'll look into it.

-m




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