Should the council spend £8m to rehome travellers from a gipsy side? (Full Version)

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Phoenixpower -> Should the council spend £8m to rehome travellers from a gipsy side? (3/21/2011 7:09:58 AM)

Over here they currently have the topic going on to empty a traveller side in the UK, which is estimated to cost the council about £8 million. (The article is from last october but its currently in the news).


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8082753/Violent-battle-feared-as-1000-travellers-are-to-be-evicted-from-UKs-biggest-gipsy-site.html

this one is more recent from last week and includes the estimated figure:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/gypsies-braced-for-war-as-bulldozers-move-in-2240974.html

However, seeing how massive cuts are going on over here, and hearing today in the news that spending about 8 million pound to carry out that operation (costs include rehousing, bailiffs alone seem to be getting £2.2 million, some costs of ambulance involvement will have to be paid for, etc) will lead to further employees losing their jobs in councils to make up for that bill....I am wondering if that really makes sense. I feel, at present, that they should prioritise what really does matter and don't feel that this should be a priority right now at the current state the UK is in, but maybe I fail to understand the necessity about it, which is why I thought to ask for other views about that matter :o)

Sorry in case I posted it in the wrong section, maybe it belongs under stupidity [8|]




pahunkboy -> RE: Should the council spend £8m to rehome travellers from a gipsy side? (3/21/2011 7:43:16 AM)

I think they should be moved to one of the Queens castles.   Not the main one- but with all the acreage-  no one would notice. 




Phoenixpower -> RE: Should the council spend £8m to rehome travellers from a gipsy side? (3/21/2011 8:09:19 AM)

lol, that would be funny [:D] Maybe they would even be less reluctant then to move [:)]




Politesub53 -> RE: Should the council spend £8m to rehome travellers from a gipsy side? (3/21/2011 6:10:44 PM)

Im guessing you would see it as a priorty if you lived next to it. The fact remains this is an illegal camp causing much distress to the local community.




pahunkboy -> RE: Should the council spend £8m to rehome travellers from a gipsy side? (3/21/2011 7:23:52 PM)

I dont want that trash on my block.  The article said the neighbors fear closing the camp would push the peasants onto their yards. 




DomYngBlk -> RE: Should the council spend £8m to rehome travellers from a gipsy side? (3/22/2011 5:21:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower

Over here they currently have the topic going on to empty a traveller side in the UK, which is estimated to cost the council about £8 million. (The article is from last october but its currently in the news).


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8082753/Violent-battle-feared-as-1000-travellers-are-to-be-evicted-from-UKs-biggest-gipsy-site.html

this one is more recent from last week and includes the estimated figure:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/gypsies-braced-for-war-as-bulldozers-move-in-2240974.html

However, seeing how massive cuts are going on over here, and hearing today in the news that spending about 8 million pound to carry out that operation (costs include rehousing, bailiffs alone seem to be getting £2.2 million, some costs of ambulance involvement will have to be paid for, etc) will lead to further employees losing their jobs in councils to make up for that bill....I am wondering if that really makes sense. I feel, at present, that they should prioritise what really does matter and don't feel that this should be a priority right now at the current state the UK is in, but maybe I fail to understand the necessity about it, which is why I thought to ask for other views about that matter :o)

Sorry in case I posted it in the wrong section, maybe it belongs under stupidity [8|]


Didn't Europe begin to villify this same group about 70 years ago with predictable results?




Phoenixpower -> RE: Should the council spend £8m to rehome travellers from a gipsy side? (3/22/2011 5:28:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Im guessing you would see it as a priorty if you lived next to it. The fact remains this is an illegal camp causing much distress to the local community.


yes but it isnt an illegal camp just since yesterday, is it?

I just feel it would not need to have a priority in the current situation UK is in. Trying to save millions in every councils at present, leading to cutting services for the disabled, elderly and youth clubs, etc...but then they have 8 million pound left for that, which will lead to further cuts in jobs and services...

And if I would live near it and it would bother me I would consider to move. Whilst this might not be an option for everyone I am sure it would be an option for some. Other folks also have to get used to it when green fields around their house get demolished to build a busy street through there.

So I am not against taking action, but I don't believe that this should be a priority in the current situation the UK is in....




Politesub53 -> RE: Should the council spend £8m to rehome travellers from a gipsy side? (3/22/2011 5:46:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

Didn't Europe begin to villify this same group about 70 years ago with predictable results?


No, that was Hitler, not Europe.

As for the group in question, they are not true gypsies but Irish "travellers" The number of travellers is now greater than the numbers in the adjacent village. It cant be right that the villagers pay taxes for local services, while the travellers pay nothing.




Politesub53 -> RE: Should the council spend £8m to rehome travellers from a gipsy side? (3/22/2011 5:54:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower

yes but it isnt an illegal camp just since yesterday, is it?

I just feel it would not need to have a priority in the current situation UK is in. Trying to save millions in every councils at present, leading to cutting services for the disabled, elderly and youth clubs, etc...but then they have 8 million pound left for that, which will lead to further cuts in jobs and services...

And if I would live near it and it would bother me I would consider to move. Whilst this might not be an option for everyone I am sure it would be an option for some. Other folks also have to get used to it when green fields around their house get demolished to build a busy street through there.

So I am not against taking action, but I don't believe that this should be a priority in the current situation the UK is in....


Firstly lets not forget they have been fighting this in the courts since day one, costing taxpayers way more than £8 million. Lets face it £8 million isnt a lot when talking about local finance for an area like Basildon. You would also benefit from less crime in the area. Why is a youth club more important than local residents having a safe enviroment ?

Secondly a few points on "Moving home"  Why should people have to move just because people have decided to camp illegally near buy. I suspect you have never tried to sell a house next to a "travellers site" either. Anyone looking at it will only offer a fraction of its price, so any finances required to move are tied up.




Aneirin -> RE: Should the council spend £8m to rehome travellers from a gipsy side? (3/22/2011 7:06:50 AM)

Nimbyism is a big problem in the overpopulated UK, most people agree people should have somewhere to stay, but it is very much a case of not in my back yard.

But the question of travellers, be whatever they are, their chosen lifestyle is to travel, should they be prevented from this, for surely the nimby mentality in this country ensures they have nowhere to stay, the country seems to think, travellers travel, so get travelling, you have no rights. But what is this mentality, what is it, is it because we are forced to stay put in houses without wheels, have an address where authority can find us, and the taxes we must pay, travellers seem to escape, so what is it, jealousy ? Or is it the majority feel they have to comply, therefore the minorities must be forced to.

At one time travellers had a use, they were welcomed in the various destinations, the seasonal agricultural need for vast cheaply paid manpower that didn't need housing, the circuses, fairgrounds, the itinerant tradesmen, the horse tradesman, they were welcomed then, ( but always suspected as one suspects a stranger, that plus the mythology the travellers encourage). If it were not farmers lands to pitch camp on, it was the common land, another thing we seem to have lost to government, be it local, but beyond commoner use, local governments more now a seedling of central government that a council of the local people.

I am also aware we are to some extents bordering on racism when we seek to define what a traveller is, sure the Romanies are accepted, that due mostly to romanticism, the notion of horse drawn wagons and swarthy looks, if there are truly any left ? ( Hitler did for a lot of them in Europe), but just what is wrong with the Irish traveller, are they sub human or something, for they seem to pick up a lot of derision when people talk about travellers. Sure, some, not all are light fingered, but the minority in anything always spoil it for the majority, but one thing has to be looked at as a positive in this world where we need to conserve our resources, they can make money from muck, they will clear an area of useful saleable resources we would not notice, in fact stuff if we did notice it, we would lobby the council to shift at tax payers expense and that, only because it is spoiling someone's view.

It is not just the Irish traveller that comes in for unfair treatment, but what about those others that perhaps don't have a travelling ancestry, are they to be denied freedom too ? Yes, the neo hippies, the crusties and the being one with the land peace convoys, what is wrong with them, they are just people, but people it seems must be forced to comply, or risk the authorities wrath for daring to seek freedom, freedom in a land a lot less free.

Anyone remember this ?

Just people seeking an alternative form of existence to music, but the documentaries are all there to see, and worth watching if you have any interest in the rights of people to choose their own lifestyle.

( A personal observation, in that the above example bears a striking resemblance to a much earlier act against people seeking their own existence in 1649 )

Oh yes, what we see on the news, the mess left by the travelling community, well, is that all, is that why they are not wanted, especially so when our coutryside is plagued with fly tippers, there's mess, they do try to burn, but many 'traveller' sites prohibit burning and rightly so to an extent bearing in mind the dangerous chemicals in our modern waste, so what should one do, and of the waste left, the waste is endemic to our throw away society, packaging and the horrors of it, we in our houses without wheels know too well.

Are the British people that content in their servitude to a system that denies them anything other than accepted freedom, they are prepared to do the authorities that keep them's work for them ?

Ever noticed how an expensive motorhome housing an old retired couple travelling around in their retirement is accepted vagrancy and those that travel in what they can cobble together with the funds available to them come in for the public wrath?

As to the OP, councils and what they spend where, well, I certainly do not believe all the council cuts are necessary, there being some evidence that some cuts are designed to bring dislike to the government, and of the funds that are spent, well, one has just got to find who, or what is the political motivator, for it is known, influence commands the most action.

As to the cost, eight million, well the same again who is benefitting from the money spent, and who stands to suffer the most loss.

Where there is power, there is corruption.






Phoenixpower -> RE: Should the council spend £8m to rehome travellers from a gipsy side? (3/22/2011 10:46:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower

yes but it isnt an illegal camp just since yesterday, is it?

I just feel it would not need to have a priority in the current situation UK is in. Trying to save millions in every councils at present, leading to cutting services for the disabled, elderly and youth clubs, etc...but then they have 8 million pound left for that, which will lead to further cuts in jobs and services...

And if I would live near it and it would bother me I would consider to move. Whilst this might not be an option for everyone I am sure it would be an option for some. Other folks also have to get used to it when green fields around their house get demolished to build a busy street through there.

So I am not against taking action, but I don't believe that this should be a priority in the current situation the UK is in....


Firstly lets not forget they have been fighting this in the courts since day one, costing taxpayers way more than £8 million. Lets face it £8 million isnt a lot when talking about local finance for an area like Basildon. You would also benefit from less crime in the area. Why is a youth club more important than local residents having a safe enviroment ?

Secondly a few points on "Moving home"  Why should people have to move just because people have decided to camp illegally near buy. I suspect you have never tried to sell a house next to a "travellers site" either. Anyone looking at it will only offer a fraction of its price, so any finances required to move are tied up.


I am aware that folks who own their place are not in good chances to move but what I meant is when it bothers "that much" until it is solved then the option is there. I do know that surroundings do matter as we have tenants ourselves and know good and bad experienced with it.

My view is only that whilst it needs to be sorted I simply believe on the fact that in the current climate it is not the right time to do it. As it says in ethics...decisions have to be taken for the greater good at times.

And why I am concerned about youth clubs? working in the social sector since 12 years of my life it does matter to me as it is beneficial for kids to have offers available which they can use in their private time to get off the streets, also I know how much service cuts affect carers who care for disabled and sick relatives such as partners, parents and kids and it is shocking to see how they are compromised already.

So quite frankly I have more sympathy with the nation as a whole in that respect than with the few residents which is why I have the opinion it can be left for now and sorted when (fingers crossed) the UK might be better again one day...[8|]




Aneirin -> RE: Should the council spend £8m to rehome travellers from a gipsy side? (3/22/2011 11:39:20 AM)

But that's what it is all about in the UK isn't it, the hallowed house price, for nothing must hinder the house prices, even people, they have to get out of the way for house prices. Has it never ocurred we in Britain spend so much time worrying about house prices, it is laughable to many on the continent, and before anyone says houses are a significant investment, understand the word, 'investment', for that implies straight away what a house is, no longer a home, but property to be bought and sold by those seeking profit. Profit, as if that is the only thing one must have in life, but what profiteering does, is raise the house prices so the poorer don't stand a chance and there the rise of the homeless, some of those homeless go on to travel the roads seeing as traditional avenues of living are closed to them. I believe that the house prices are artificially being kept high, for who wins in the end, none other than the financial institutions, greed again. Sure houses are being built, but only ten percent of any new housing estate is, ha' so called affordable homes, that soon changes when a new owner makes improvements to hike up the value, that is, if the housing estates get built, because nimbyism exists with that as well.




Phoenixpower -> RE: Should the council spend £8m to rehome travellers from a gipsy side? (3/22/2011 4:09:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

But that's what it is all about in the UK isn't it, the hallowed house price, for nothing must hinder the house prices, even people, they have to get out of the way for house prices.


Lol, you made me laugh, as I got a friends theatralic voice in my head the way how you said it, but its true...on my first placement my manager got funny about the owner from that place that he would live near my uni and that of course in his area students cant park as he doesnt pay soooooo much council tax for a reason *snort*...didn't know until then that you don't only owe your house but also your road [8|]

quote:


Has it never ocurred we in Britain spend so much time worrying about house prices, it is laughable to many on the continent, and before anyone says houses are a significant investment, understand the word, 'investment', for that implies straight away what a house is, no longer a home, but property to be bought and sold by those seeking profit. Profit, as if that is the only thing one must have in life, but what profiteering does, is raise the house prices so the poorer don't stand a chance and there the rise of the homeless, some of those homeless go on to travel the roads seeing as traditional avenues of living are closed to them.


Thats quite true...the houses my parents have werent bought as investement to make profit from it. Grannys house was passed on to her daughter and my parents first house was kept as they didnt get the asking price and have no desire to sell it when it makes no difference to their monthly payments when they just keep it instead and rent it out. They only moved as friends from them moved away and they always liked it how in their house were all necessary rooms on the ground floor and it does have large doors and halways, therefore if they would ever struggle mobility wise when they get older they have a house where they can live in comfortably. It's not as cosy and well build as my dad did at their previous job, it just doesn't have that better quality character as I keep freezing in there most of the times when I am there which never happened at the other house, but its good for them with not being dependent on the ability to use the stairs.

quote:


I believe that the house prices are artificially being kept high, for who wins in the end, none other than the financial institutions, greed again. Sure houses are being built, but only ten percent of any new housing estate is, ha' so called affordable homes, that soon changes when a new owner makes improvements to hike up the value, that is, if the housing estates get built, because nimbyism exists with that as well.


I don't know that but its certainly true that the prices are maniac over here.




Aneirin -> RE: Should the council spend £8m to rehome travellers from a gipsy side? (3/22/2011 5:44:04 PM)

I have deigned that I will never own a house, not ever get a mortgage, for I am too old now for that, twenty five years of payments, if I last that long. I have bought a house before, but that is gone, the ex had it, my freedom was more important than a shit house in a shit area, I needed to be away to places where insanity is well, part of life for the majority. I rent off a landlady I never see, she leaves me alone, and I her, that being all repairs I do myself, for having the privledge of being in rented accomodation, where those that own it, keep out of my life.

Of course where I live there are owners, the baby boomers who look down their nose at those who must rent, but given their age, they will be gone before too long, at least I and the other young tennants have some life left in us to enjoy, all the baby boomers do is moan and await their death and with that, good riddance to those that moan and denigrate the younger for not having the house prices they could well afford, for the baby boomers some say are the cause of the high prices we must pay to have shelter and if we can afford it, warmth

But what annoys many who rent, is petit lords that some landlords become, for as soon as they have something to rent to others, they feel they are superior to others.




pahunkboy -> RE: Should the council spend £8m to rehome travellers from a gipsy side? (3/22/2011 6:48:57 PM)

I cant say much positive of land lords OR tenants here in the US.      I am glad I am neither.    Tenants always seem to trash the place. --  and owners seem to over charge. 




Phoenixpower -> RE: Should the council spend £8m to rehome travellers from a gipsy side? (3/23/2011 9:05:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

I have deigned that I will never own a house, not ever get a mortgage, for I am too old now for that, twenty five years of payments, if I last that long. I have bought a house before, but that is gone, the ex had it, my freedom was more important than a shit house in a shit area, I needed to be away to places where insanity is well, part of life for the majority. I rent off a landlady I never see, she leaves me alone, and I her, that being all repairs I do myself, for having the privledge of being in rented accomodation, where those that own it, keep out of my life.


I agree with you, also had landlords who kept themselves to themselves as long as the rent is paid. I need to get back into savings once I am back in work as otherwise I will never get my visa to New Zealand and over there I will go for a mortgage as simply its a bit awkward by now to find a home once you have quite a few furrys....and I grew up where it was normal to have your own place, I almost bought my own flat when I was 19 back home.

quote:


Of course where I live there are owners, the baby boomers who look down their nose at those who must rent, but given their age, they will be gone before too long, at least I and the other young tennants have some life left in us to enjoy, all the baby boomers do is moan and await their death and with that, good riddance to those that moan and denigrate the younger for not having the house prices they could well afford, for the baby boomers some say are the cause of the high prices we must pay to have shelter and if we can afford it, warmth


Personally I would not blame the baby boomers for that but more that simply you have a huge population over here by now which makes it harder to get a place in the first place.

quote:


But what annoys many who rent, is petit lords that some landlords become, for as soon as they have something to rent to others, they feel they are superior to others.


I agree with that, but then you have such sort of people for many different reasons, some might feel superior for owning a place, others for living in a certain area or for working in a well known well paid industry...and then there are some who are in the same position and very down to earth.




Phoenixpower -> RE: Should the council spend £8m to rehome travellers from a gipsy side? (3/23/2011 9:18:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

I cant say much positive of land lords OR tenants here in the US.      I am glad I am neither.    Tenants always seem to trash the place. --  and owners seem to over charge. 


Well, where I am from house prices are reasonable, so you would struggle to find tenants if you would charge massively and as water, gas etc is exclusive we cant overcharge them their either. Apart from that in that area people know themselves well and if not then its likely that any colleague at work or sports club will know their landlord so it would cause a big mouth to mouth stir if my parents would overcharge.

In regards to Aneirins comment earlier, about landlors keeping to themselves, my parents did that and now with the new tenants again do that but as our previous tenants almost burned our house down when their 13 year old son considered it to be a great idea to play with fire in the cellar my parents realised how bad they did run it down with stickers on doors (one thing my parents were always allergic to) using the water drain as ash tray, planting bamboo despite that my parents said no to that as such stuff is dififcult to get rid of again once you have it in your garden grounds (thats at least what they say, I dont know that, but my lead the gardening department in my dads DIY store when I was a kid so I believe them in that respect) and other "nice" surprised such as a masive crack in the sink in the bathroom...one thing my brother and I never managed to achieve in our 15 years in that house....

On top of that they obviously never bothered to clean the toilet (where my parents had their handy daughter to use for that to clean their bathroom weekly they didnt bother obviously), killed a window in the garage door and killed the window in our hole in the wall where you put food through from the kitchen to the dining table...

When they moved out they naively expected to get a refund from their deposit [8|]

The window from kitchen to dining table was never mentioned, they just decided to leave it open (you moved it inside the wall when you opened it) a la out of side out of mind, just exactly what their son did when he caused the fire and closed the cellar door after it went out of hand...

So when my dad found stuff during the time of that fire such as using the water drain as ash tray etc he wrote down that he will visit once or twice a year to check on how the house is kept in shape from them but if that fire would not have happened my parents wouldnt have known and they would have never checked, so they arent mean landlords...

Now I just hope that the fire history will not continue in that house as it happened twice already, once with us when I was a kid (my dad not realising that a candle was still burning at xmas time on the table) and with the first tenants in there...

It just starts a feel like becoming a history in that house even when I know that human errors caused it both times...




Aneirin -> RE: Should the council spend £8m to rehome travellers from a gipsy side? (3/23/2011 10:11:24 AM)

People that do take care of the things that belong to others given or rented to their care are scum and deserve nothing, but in the house rental market, the scum has tainted that, so now it is expected people of a certain income will wreck the place. Ever see rental ads. where it startes in capital letters, 'NO DSS', well, that is there for a very good reason, for no one wants DSS, because they are all scum based upon a minority of scare stories.

You see, what we have here, is a mentality that only scum are in receipt of state benefits, so the NO DSS is designed to prevent those on state benefits from applying, and even in some cases, once a landlord finds out a person is on state benefits, they get evicted, the latter, because it is not a legal requirement to state to a prospective landlord what one does for a living, but it is not illegal to discriminate against those who must be in receipt of social aid, everyone else, every minority group, but not the scroungers, for they must, and always be the butt to whip by government and now, the well trained public who have believed the government mouths.


The trouble is with all these things, the travellers, the pikey's, the tinkers, all it takes is a minority for the bad word to spread like a wind blown wild fire, for people are all too keen to hear about the bad that people are, never the good. how about people experience for themselves instead of listening to stories from stories from stories, the oft chinese whispers that grow to discriminate and divide society even more. you expect someone to be a problem, they will be a problem, but if you give people a break, then maybe, just maybe you will be surprised that not all the scum are scum.




Phoenixpower -> RE: Should the council spend £8m to rehome travellers from a gipsy side? (3/23/2011 1:06:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

People that do take care of the things that belong to others given or rented to their care are scum and deserve nothing


I see so now folks who treat the flat from their landlord with respect are scum...interesting view, thankfully not the one I have.

quote:


but in the house rental market, the scum has tainted that, so now it is expected people of a certain income will wreck the place. Ever see rental ads. where it startes in capital letters, 'NO DSS', well, that is there for a very good reason, for no one wants DSS, because they are all scum based upon a minority of scare stories.


I see so DSS folks are also scum....makes me wonder by now who actually isn't in your view? [8|]

quote:


You see, what we have here, is a mentality that only scum are in receipt of state benefits, so the NO DSS is designed to prevent those on state benefits from applying, and even in some cases, once a landlord finds out a person is on state benefits, they get evicted, the latter, because it is not a legal requirement to state to a prospective landlord what one does for a living, but it is not illegal to discriminate against those who must be in receipt of social aid, everyone else, every minority group, but not the scroungers, for they must, and always be the butt to whip by government and now, the well trained public who have believed the government mouths.

The trouble is with all these things, the travellers, the pikey's, the tinkers, all it takes is a minority for the bad word to spread like a wind blown wild fire, for people are all too keen to hear about the bad that people are, never the good. how about people experience for themselves instead of listening to stories from stories from stories, the oft chinese whispers that grow to discriminate and divide society even more. you expect someone to be a problem, they will be a problem, but if you give people a break, then maybe, just maybe you will be surprised that not all the scum are scum.


Well, my example was own experience and not your chinese story and quite frankly at home we dont judge tenants upon what previous tenants did they behave well they get there deposit back, they cause damange they wont get it back; simple....but yes the mentality in the UK is different but seeing how much bad behaviour is shown and considered as to be funny on your TV programme here I am not surprised when thats the crap kids see here on tv.




Aneirin -> RE: Should the council spend £8m to rehome travellers from a gipsy side? (3/23/2011 5:45:02 PM)

Maybe you take my words as personal to you and yours, but my words are there to inform all that read, for I am DSS, and I have experienced much of what I write about and the rest, decent people I know and often converse with in a similar situation to myself. But of course it is not the private landlords fault, for they provide a service this country can not, for social housing is no longer available to most, least of all single males, for males without disability are at the bottom of the pile, no council points for anything, for we are forgotten about.

My place, I have just spent 500 or more and it's not finished yet, to redecorate the place for myself to live, as five years here now, the only change I can see, is the one's I make, for me to live a better life in anorther's home. Of course being ex trade, the improvements are to a higher standatrd than that which people pay for, for I have myself top please most, but should I vacate this studio flat I live in, the owner will find the place fully modernised and fit for any who come to see. That of course includes a hard wood floor through out, which I understand actually adds value to anyone's property. Now I am no trouyble to my landlord, but those around me who own their properties, the baby boomers mentioned before, I know they despise those who have to rent, for the owner is beyond their control, and how do I know this, for because those that look down their nose can often be heard back stabbing through paper thin walls, so despite trheir niceties face to face, I know they hate us for being poor.




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