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Darwin and D/s - 3/16/2011 5:02:35 PM   
Prinsexx


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Roll Up! Roll Up! The World and her wife are only a click away: all the dynamics, genders, shapes, heights, ages, wonders and tricks of the kinky world in one movement of a mouse!
But, and it's a seriou but: how does this affect those who are disaffected, genuinely looking for a relationship of the real kind?
I've run into at least one recently who semmed to turn on a dime because he didn't get the pictures he wanted. Spotting viterol in fact that I didn't meet his expectations. I wonder how that would fit with Darwin's Theory of Evolution: that only the fittest survive.
I'm prepared to take it on the chin here and have critics say well, you know Prin, you've been here for four years and still looking? Yes but I've backed a few winners, and ridden a few losers. And more than anything adapted and evolved and kept up pretty well with my own shifting needs.
My questions are these (and any other questions that might arise);
What does this seemingly endless choice create out there in reality?
That only those that fit expectations get hooked up?
Does it mean that the weak are somehow defined as those that don't fit?
That diversiy is somehow levelled out?
That the very thing we say we represent gets pushed aside in the process of matching up, not to the real person, but to a static unchanging and time-frozen assumption of how the other person ought to be?



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RE: Darwin and D/s - 3/16/2011 7:59:05 PM   
CarnalNightmare


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Everyone has different standards for what they consider successful "survival."  Sure everyone starts off idealistic, but then for the most part, they all take what they can get.  A "static unchanging and time frozen assumption," will get you nowhere. 

To put it as romantically as possible; human relationships are a balance of social capital.  People either increase their social capital, lower their standards, or jerk off in front of the TV alone. 

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RE: Darwin and D/s - 3/16/2011 8:07:10 PM   
DesFIP


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I don't believe social Darwinism is a proven concept and even if it is, online doesn't count as a real life environment. When people believe themselves anonymous they act in ways they do not when known. Road rage is a proven example.

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RE: Darwin and D/s - 3/16/2011 8:07:15 PM   
sexyred1


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Or, there is a fourth option:

Not to overanalyze why there are so many people who may be incompatible and be happy that you will be able to spot the right person for you when and if they come around.

Why worry about all the misses, appreciate how they revealed themselves sooner than later and be ok about looking.

It does not matter if you looked for 4 year or 40 years; nothing is worth settling for that does not make you happy.

I don't think it has anything to do with survival of the fittest; who determines that anyway? Sometimes, the higher caliber of a person you are, the harder it is to connect with a similar person.


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RE: Darwin and D/s - 3/16/2011 8:25:28 PM   
StrongSpirit


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1. Your post, particularly the beginning is confusing. I would fix it. Start by remove everything you thought was funny, cute, or even 'personality'. We don't know you, and all of that cute/funny/personality stuff just confused me. For example, referring to yourself in the third person (I think that is what you did, not sure) is not helpful considering we don't know your name. Most people don't read the username. Then fix the spelling and grammar mistakes. Finally, clarify what you are talking about in simple words and phrases.

2. OK, I think you asked about endless choice from the Internet affecting the search for a mate. Answer: It has raised people's standards for the shallow stuff that can easily be verified. This has tremendously disadvantages some people.

Darwin's theory is mostly about natural selection, not artificial. That is, it is mainly concerned with killing creatures before they mate, not selecting a mate based on appearance (most of the artificial selection theory came about long after Darwin). That said, selection based on shallow considerations does decrease diversity - but shallow considerations tend to vary significantly by culture. Cultures vary by both country and by time. There will probably be no evolutionary considerations due to shallow considerations.

But, as I said earlier, it does tend to unfairly punish people that don't fit common ideals. Overweight women, the short men, tend to get royally screwed. Not to mention transsexuals, furries, and other groups that frowned upon. If you are a short, fat, transexual furry, well, you have my sympathy.

That said, these people are NOT weak. In fact, they often are far stronger emotionally than most of the 'pretty people'.

Your last question is again, one of the confusing ones. (Who do you mean by "we", what do you think they represent? what assumptions are you talking about?) Cut out the philosophical words and use concrete terms - even if they don't fully refer to everything you want. I think you are asking do we end up being shallow instead of looking for the deeper qualities we really want.

The answer to that is simple. Being shallow it it's own punishment. There is nothing wrong with being shallow - as long as you accept the consequences of your own actions. For example, if you are shallow enough to marry Tiger Woods (rich, tall, athlete who obviously was never faithful), then surprise surprise, he cheats on you. Similarly, if you are stupid enough to marry someone just because they are supermodel, then surprise, surprise, she beats you with your own golf club. Neither person deserved what they got, but they certainly got what they pursued.

Same thing here. If you pursue people based on shallow standards, then it won't matter that you claimed to want honest, ethical people. You end up with the shallow, dishonest, unethical people you pursue.



< Message edited by StrongSpirit -- 3/16/2011 8:27:45 PM >

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RE: Darwin and D/s - 3/16/2011 9:05:33 PM   
IronBear


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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrongSpirit

1. Your post, particularly the beginning is confusing. I would fix it. Start by remove everything you thought was funny, cute, or even 'personality'.



Grow up and get a good grip on your dick and shut the fuck up. It is you who are the no-body here so it is you who do not need to be sprouting this shit....  The plain fact is prinsexx had been around here longer then you have so who the fuck are you to say she is unknown? You on the other hand are so far beneath my contempt that this is the last I shall have to do with the likes of you..


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RE: Darwin and D/s - 3/16/2011 9:24:48 PM   
domiguy


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Nice helmet and sword.

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RE: Darwin and D/s - 3/17/2011 12:51:22 AM   
stellauk


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Ah yes, BDSM and Darwin, the evolution of BDSM and the evolution of Mankind or humans. There is a very strong connection, and something of what I would perceive to be a Throwback Factor caused by the sheer frustration and periods of tedium spent revolving around BDSM websites. This causes many people to regress at times, usually temporarily, sometimes permanently.

But usually our evolution through BDSM is mirrored or even reflective of our own personal evolution.

It can even be argued that attitudes found in BDSM and on such websites as this reflect those of early childhood, and even reveal some of our attitudes during the time when we were potty trained. Some have an oral fixation ('Gimme pussy!!!', 'Well I'll be blowed.', etc) or become so anally retentive that dildos are lost. ('Gimme back my butt plug, f*cker!') and there are those who have Phallic fixations and do what they can to emulate the great John Thomas in every respect.

You don't have to go far to see the same attitudes found in early childhood.. the dressing up, the showing off of toys, the exaggerated pre-occupation with genitalia ('Ooh look! Fanny!!') and the rude boys who feel the need to show the girls their willies. There is the temper tantrums (just ask most women who have rejected someone) and the whining and bawling and crying 'Wah! Why can't I find a Mistress?' 'Wah wah. We're a couple and want to know why don't female subs want to play with us?' and so on.

Indeed, this link between BDSM and human evolution is proven by scientists and even some in the medical professions but the debates are fierce with the differing theories and nobody can agree on whether BDSM has a detrimental effect on human evolution or a beneficial effect. Some anthropologists claim that BDSM has a negative effect on human evolution, causing regression and homo sapiens to regress rather than evolve.

However some anthropologists argue that BDSM is very beneficial to human evolution and Mankind, for it is the only known area of human culture and anthropology where one can find living evidence of the entire evolution of human beings, stretching back millions of years to when our predecessors, apes, experimented with BDSM but rejected it due to lack of available munches and opportunities for play.

Darwin was among those who believed in the possibility of the existence of the subhuman 'missing link' between our ape ancestors and the first humans, and it is believed among this group of anthropologists that BDSM was among the mating interests of this 'missing link' type of subhuman ape, albeit in a very primitive form. However some contend that this was so primitive it could hardly be described as BDSM. Dynamics were often established on the basis of primeval phrases, such as.. 'Who him?'... 'Get her' ...'Give body', and it is widely believed that the missing link died out because these subhuman apes died out because they were far more interested in their nuts than mating and BDSM.

Indeed today some anthropologists point to evidence of the missing link evidenced by the same primeval scowl seen on facial photos of some dominants and the indiscriminate showing of genitalia and backsides.

However these anthropologists also believe that today's modern BDSM has allowed the survival of examples of all stages of human evolution, starting from when Man first started to emerge from Africa and homo africanus which were the first truly all human divergence from the missing link and much smaller and thinner than other forms. This dates back to around 5 million years. We can see this today in submissives and dominants, some weighing as little as 25lbs, still trying to emerge from Africa.

Then around 2 million years ago there was homo habilis, somewhat larger, nicknamed the 'handy man' because this form of human was arguably the first to walk on two legs, leading females to develop boobs with large nipples, the penis got a little bigger and this was the first type of human to realize that playing with genitalia with one hand brings relief and also ensures survival of the species by preparing genitalia for intercourse. Here we can see the primitive attempts at foreplay. BDSM was still however a matter of scowling, short phrases such as 'You here', 'Want you' and 'Bend over.'

The next stage of human evolution took place around 1.6 to 1.8 million years ago and this is the well known homo erectus 'Me horny'...'Need chastity.' and the sub-species homo castratus 'Me horny.' 'Castrate me'. Homo castratus was short lived, and it was here that Man learned not only that a penis was an essential element of reproductive sex, but that getting one's dick bitten off was incredibly painful. Needless to say homo castratus died out and homo erectus survived. Homo erectus was the first to develop kinks, the first kink being voyeurism and watching other humans mate, a characteristic of the well known Peking Man. Some argue that this was the first primitive signs of an interest in pornography.

(I know, it's still early and I haven't had much caffeine)

Between 800,000 and 300,000 years ago there was homo heidelbergensis, and the first signs of the uber dom.

However it wasn't until later, between 400.000 years and 30.000 years and the coming of homo neanderthalis that BDSM started to become more popular and also humans started to branch out and diversify. Neanderthal Man was the first Twue Dom and Twue Submissive, the first to develop toys and equipment and use them in play, developing floggers from plants, discovering canes, andn shaping branches into birches. Early bondage involved the use of vines, and Neanderthal Man was the first to stage events and hold munches and this is where the term 'munch' came to be when BDSMers would go out and hunt a woolly mammoth with groups of doms and subs working together to capture the beast using spears. Spears it is argued is the first evidence of needle play, but some dispute this, as early attempts at needle play using spears resulted in many deaths.

Neanderthal Man died out of course due to not discovering hard limits and being unable to work out the difference between a submissive and slave and this is where homo sapiens took over and why many of us are interested in D/s and BDSM.

All part of evolution.



< Message edited by stellauk -- 3/17/2011 12:55:37 AM >


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RE: Darwin and D/s - 3/17/2011 8:33:56 AM   
xssve


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I call it "click fever", it's a phenomena that's behind the success of online porn: "you like that, wait till you see the next one"!

Takes time and effort to get to know someone, and the human race has a long history of constructing boxes, roles, etc., to save themselves the bother - "role models", etc., in evolutionary terms, humans, like nay other animal, adapt to their environment; humans are a social species, and we construct elaborate abstract models of optimal social behavior, which we expect others to recognize and represent - the Judeo-Christian model, for example, which has no room for female sexuality except in a very narrow and carefully monitored range - if you're lucky enough to find room for it at all.

It certainly has no place for us, in any traditional sense, our role is strictly adversarial, we represent the devil, everything they ostensibly seek to eradicate - motherhood and female sexuality are seen as particularly inimical, despite the obvious irony.

Anyway, just an example, it's human nature to institutionalize anything, to construct abstract categories and religion and politics are obvious examples, but it operates in any grouping of people with mutual interests: do we not get regular thread in here asking with bewilderment why submissives act like human beings and not domesticated animals?

Because there is no such thing as an "average submissive", there are just people who exhibit varying degrees and nuances of particular personality traits, some of which may be categorized as submissive: it's behavior, not a thing, and varied as any other human behavior including dominance - another regular thread is things like, is liking anal (receiving) or giving oral domly?, etc.

These are acts which are commonly accepted to symbolize submissiveness, and its just as meaningless a ritual as avoiding meat on Friday, or not eating pork if the symbolism of that act has no personal meaning for you, it's just a habit, the symbolism has long lost any practical meaning - but again, in order for other adherents of that model to comprehend that would require assessment on the interpersonal level, to relate on a level other than symbolic, when it's much easier and more common to just have a knee jerk reaction to a perceived transgression of the model, the iconoclasm - Catholics and Protestants are ostensibly the same religion, worship the same god, etc., but murdered each other en masse for centuries over minor doctrinal disputes like the barre in front of the alter, or images of saints on the wall.

Most of these models are based on illusion, some abstact ideal imagined by long dead people, small surprise most people diverge from a given model in myriad ways without even thinking about it - there is very little disparagement of sex actually in the Bible, while in the New Testament at least, Jesus is constantly railing against greed - every time he goes postal it's about greed, or inflexibility - see the woes of the Pharisees - but damned if the bulk of Christians will rail incessantly against sex and rationalize greed till they're out of breath.

Human nature is not necessarily innately self centered, but self centered people tend to be more relentless in their pursuit of self gratification, which tends to require others to adopt roles convenient to that "vision" - not uncommonly, force is employed to that end - while the idea of employing force by contrast is inimical to promoting selflessness (be nice or I'll kill you), which gives the selfish a certain edge in the short term, though over the long term, they tend to isolate and weed themselves out to the point of irrelevance and oblivion - the have-not's are always going to outnumber the haves in such a system, and eventually, the have-not's will find the situation no longer tolerable.

Meanwhile, nearly everyone maintains the illusion that there is some legitimate, standardized model, without ever thinking about what it might actually represent, it's reasonable parameters, etc., i.e., the Roman civis, for example, civilized man, part of which requires tolerating differences in personality and ritual in a culturally diverse urban environment - with globalization no longer a theory, some thought should really be given to this.

Instead, by default, the human tendency is to tribalize, gangs for example, and the distinction between the Crips and the republicans, or Christians, is not as large as it may appear: organizationally, they're practically identical and organized for much the same reasons: to control a particular territory for their own benefit, whether it's a street corner or a congressional committee - they tend to have very narrow definitions of what is and is not acceptable behavior, down to the level of personal opinion, and verbal patterns of behavior tend to be strictly enforced, in spite of all the lip music about free will.

Take that to it's logical conclusion and you have Feudal India and a rigid caste system - the Western branch of the Ino-European family has done quite a bit better by actively fighting off the tendency to form into castes.

Anyway, a long way of explaining that humans have developed a tendency to idealize, and to see deviations from that ideal as a thing to oppose, however irrational the ideal may be, and however rational the divergence, whether it arises from simple cognitive dissonance, or political fear of undermining a particularly convenient role, such as that of the domestic housewife.

I'm sure you understand all this, and yeah, there isn't much to do about it, but hand them their asses when we get a chance and keep on keepin' on.

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RE: Darwin and D/s - 3/17/2011 8:57:48 AM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

What does this seemingly endless choice create out there in reality?


Greetings,

I love having the power to choose. It makes my life much easier and eliminates certain realities that could be a factor if the other party was choosing alone. In my mind choice permits me to select a person that is comparable in the areas that allow for healthy relations.
 
quote:

That only those that fit expectations get hooked up?


See, that doesn't register in my head. I wonder why I would ever want to be with someone who found me lacking in the areas he considered a priority. That would be pretty messed up in my opinion. The fact of the matter is this isn't grammar school. Everyone won't be picked and compromises aren't required. People select according to their own philosophies and that means at some point someone will be left out of the mix.

quote:

Does it mean that the weak are somehow defined as those that don't fit?


I don't consider the individuals that fall outside of my preferences to be weak at all. I think they have the capacity to make an ideal partner for someone more in line with their needs. We're simply incompatible in 'that' form of relating.

quote:

That diversiy is somehow levelled out?


I don't want diversity. I want a complement. And I'm unwilling to be politically correct. Blowing smoke up someone's touches doesn't change the fact that I'm not going to compromise in the manner they'd prefer. Nor does it lessen what that individual brings to the relationship table. It just means we're not relating. Nothing more or less.

quote:

That the very thing we say we represent gets pushed aside in the process of matching up, not to the real person, but to a static unchanging and time-frozen assumption of how the other person ought to be?


It's not that I'm just not that into you. Or that I'm going by the rules or some other arcane checklist. It's the mere fact that I'm unwilling to lie to myself to be with you. And if I can't be true to the woman staring back at me, what am I doing this for?

For what it's worth I think a lot of people hate being alone. Some are so miserable and carry tremendous internal angst about being 'passed over' or seemingly left behind. I can't change that or contort myself to assuage their hurt. What I can do is be honest and give serious consideration to the feasibility of our union. Will that require some movement in both directions? More than likely. But I don't have a cloud hanging overhead telling me it has to happen right now. Nor do I think my life is meaningless or empty because I haven't found what I sought. It's a matter of perspective and where ones values rest.

As for Darwin, do I have a type? Yes. Have I encountered it? Yes. Was it realistic? Yes. Do I expect every man to fall within that same frame? No. Replication isn't possible. At best I might find one with similarities under another guise. But the proverbial 'Him' cannot be duplicated.

Namaste,

~porcelaine


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RE: Darwin and D/s - 3/17/2011 9:43:50 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

What does this seemingly endless choice create out there in reality?
That only those that fit expectations get hooked up?


It means a person either finds someone they are compatable with, or a person tries to fit an ideal.

quote:

Does it mean that the weak are somehow defined as those that don't fit?

Everyone fits something.

quote:

That diversiy is somehow levelled out?

No.

quote:

That the very thing we say we represent gets pushed aside in the process of matching up, not to the real person, but to a static unchanging and time-frozen assumption of how the other person ought to be?


What is it that 'we' represent? Are you speaking from a group POV or self?

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RE: Darwin and D/s - 3/17/2011 9:51:07 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

1. Your post, particularly the beginning is confusing. I would fix it. Start by remove everything you thought was funny, cute, or even 'personality'. We don't know you, and all of that cute/funny/personality stuff just confused me. For example, referring to yourself in the third person (I think that is what you did, not sure) is not helpful considering we don't know your name. Most people don't read the username. Then fix the spelling and grammar mistakes. Finally, clarify what you are talking about in simple words and phrases


Why? Because you are too lazy to try and attempt to understand through the odd mistake and grammatical error?
And why are you talking collectively? Who is this 'we' that doesn't know her name? Or know her? Just because you haven't met her, doesn't mean that 'we' all haven't.

Your post is a classic example of what the OP is talking about, which is quite funny. But she still got an answer, even though you started by insisting she be a certain way. So is it really survival of the fittest?

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RE: Darwin and D/s - 3/17/2011 9:52:48 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Nice helmet and sword.


Meh. The crown of thorns isn't all that bad either.

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RE: Darwin and D/s - 3/17/2011 10:15:22 AM   
hlen5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrongSpirit

.......The answer to that is simple. Being shallow it it's own punishment. There is nothing wrong with being shallow - as long as you accept the consequences of your own actions. For example, if you are shallow enough to marry Tiger Woods (rich, tall, athlete who obviously was never faithful), then surprise surprise, he cheats on you. Similarly, if you are stupid enough to marry someone just because they are supermodel, then surprise, surprise, she beats you with your own golf club...........


Tiger and Elin ( I think?) Woods are real people, like we all are. Tiger married and hopefully was in love wth a beautiful woman who was/is outraged that he dishonored their vows. Elin married and hopefully was in love with a man that she thought would be faithful. If she married him after she caught him fooling around, she was no more foolish than other women who convice themselves that the infidelity "was a one time thing". Like the rest of us, we don't know their motivations for who they chose or for why they acted as they did.

Like the Woods, we all have our hopes and dream of that one other we wish to spend our lives with. We convince ourselves our actions are the way to go. We then live with those decisions, hopefully happy and if not at least more experienced and knowledgable about what we desire.



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RE: Darwin and D/s - 3/17/2011 11:08:15 AM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrongSpirit

For example, if you are shallow enough to marry Tiger Woods (rich, tall, athlete who obviously was never faithful), then surprise surprise, he cheats on you. Similarly, if you are stupid enough to marry someone just because they are supermodel, then surprise, surprise, she beats you with your own golf club. Neither person deserved what they got, but they certainly got what they pursued.


I'm uncertain what your issue is with Tiger, but since you used him as an example I'm going to address it. I was involved with someone for several years that played competitive golf. Her father was a former golf pro and plays professionally on the European Tour. I wasn't shallow at all. But I will candidly admit that anyone who involves themselves with someone from that world has to be very realistic about what they're walking into. You're dealing with a person that travels extensively and unless you're running around the world with them, there will be large periods of absence.

The really interesting thing about the Tiger fiasco is that he isn't the only one. In fact, it's more pervasive than most would like to believe. Golf merely maintains an image as a family sport and tries to downplay the seedier parts of the game. If you were really well informed, you'd have read the undercover exposition a news writer did several years ago as a caddy. He revealed the underbelly and acknowledged that men will be boys in more ways than one. That isn't a slight against all men, but an accurate assessment of what takes place when the cat has time on his own. Perhaps some couples have agreements where liaisons are not a problem, and maybe others do not.

It is interesting how often you posit that something or someone is shallow. I'm left to wonder if that's a real assessment or a projected insecurity hiding under a different guise? In my opinion if someone is that put off about the possibility of being looked over on a dating site, perhaps traditional methods would be a better avenue to pursue.

Namaste,

~porcelaine


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RE: Darwin and D/s - 3/17/2011 11:10:44 AM   
sexyred1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrongSpirit

But, as I said earlier, it does tend to unfairly punish people that don't fit common ideals. Overweight women, the short men, tend to get royally screwed. Not to mention transsexuals, furries, and other groups that frowned upon. If you are a short, fat, transexual furry, well, you have my sympathy.

That said, these people are NOT weak. In fact, they often are far stronger emotionally than most of the 'pretty people'.




Oh jeez...another load of bullshit. Because, of course, no one who is fat, short, trans or hairy can be considered attractive. That is your perception, not reality.

Who is "frowning upon" these people? You? I doubt that anyone needs your sympathy; in fact, I think it is you who needs sympathy since your posts are all based around not finding what you want so you blame the online world.

And where did you get the crap about those "marginalized" (your term) people being stronger than "pretty" people?

If you are not finding what you seek, what group that you mentioned are you a part of? Because you should add that group to the list you are empathizing with.

< Message edited by sexyred1 -- 3/17/2011 11:16:14 AM >

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RE: Darwin and D/s - 3/17/2011 11:21:40 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrongSpirit

But, as I said earlier, it does tend to unfairly punish people that don't fit common ideals. Overweight women, the short men, tend to get royally screwed. Not to mention transsexuals, furries, and other groups that frowned upon. If you are a short, fat, transexual furry, well, you have my sympathy.

That said, these people are NOT weak. In fact, they often are far stronger emotionally than most of the 'pretty people'.




Oh jeez...another load of bullshit. Because, of course, no one who is fat, short, trans or hairy can be considered attractive. That is your perception, not reality.

Who is "frowning upon" these people? You? I doubt that anyone needs your sympathy; in fact, I think it is you who needs sympathy since your posts are all based around not finding what you want so you blame the online world.

And where did you get the crap about those "marginalized" (your term) people being stronger than "pretty" people?

If you are not finding what you seek, what group that you mentioned are you a part of? Because you should add that group to the list you are empathizing with.


I missed this in reality. I was so caught up in being excluded from the * we that don't know you/have never met you* generalisation that I kinda missed the incredible over generalisations and (as sexyred says) bullshit of what is beautiful.

I'm quite stunned by that.


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RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to sexyred1)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Darwin and D/s - 3/17/2011 11:22:41 AM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline
Oh, you must have missed the multiple fat threads yesterday; they were full of debate on that very topic. :)

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Darwin and D/s - 3/17/2011 11:27:12 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

Oh, you must have missed the multiple fat threads yesterday; they were full of debate on that very topic. :)



I am relieved I missed more fat threads... *le sigh* x

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RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to sexyred1)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Darwin and D/s - 3/17/2011 11:34:26 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

And where did you get the crap about those "marginalized" (your term) people being stronger than "pretty" people?


Good catch. I hear Manson humming in my ears.

quote:

If you are not finding what you seek, what group that you mentioned are you a part of? Because you should add that group to the list you are empathizing with.


I think he did. :)

Namaste,

~porcelaine


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His will; my fate.

(in reply to sexyred1)
Profile   Post #: 20
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