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Old Guard ~ Leather Men.. What are the differences? - 3/15/2011 4:40:51 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Looking for some edumication here.. I know or have been so told that there is a wealth of differences between "Old Guard" (or  so I was informed, who have the "One True Way" and no one deviates from it) and the Leather Men.

I seem to remember being told that the Old Guard has almost all died out and were origin ally a gay group of ww2 ex-servicemen who liked SM kink and wore leather..  I'm probably wrong but as 50% of my brain cells are on RnR, my memory is not that crash hot.. Been following with awe the other thread on the Leather folk and enjoyed watching the Leather group in  Sydney marching the other night in Sydney's Gay & Lesbian Mardi Gras.. Awesome....   Anyway any information and or links to references or books would be tanfastic.. Taa muchly..

< Message edited by IronBear -- 3/15/2011 4:48:15 PM >

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RE: Old Guard ~ Leather Men.. What are the differences? - 3/15/2011 5:19:38 PM   
LillyBoPeep


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear


I seem to remember being told that the Old Guard has almost all died out and were origin ally a gay group of ww2 ex-servicemen who liked SM kink and wore leather.. 


that's what i was told, too. aren't they what Leather grew out from?
i dunno =p
anyone who can clarify, it'd be much appreciated. ^_^


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RE: Old Guard ~ Leather Men.. What are the differences? - 3/15/2011 5:27:34 PM   
Prinsexx


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Status: offline 		Oh f f sake read Jack

http://www.leatherviews.com/cols/search.asp




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RE: Old Guard ~ Leather Men.. What are the differences? - 3/15/2011 5:29:57 PM   
SirRussellP


Posts: 107
Joined: 1/10/2006
Status: offline 		Your right on the old guard and I haven't any real interest in leathermen to do the research.

Russell

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RE: Old Guard ~ Leather Men.. What are the differences? - 3/15/2011 5:34:36 PM   
LillyBoPeep


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

Oh f f sake read Jack

http://www.leatherviews.com/cols/search.asp



he's got a couple of books i want to read... =p


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RE: Old Guard ~ Leather Men.. What are the differences? - 3/15/2011 5:35:36 PM   
TheShrew


Posts: 519
Joined: 2/15/2009
From: The state I live in? Confusion.
Status: offline 		As with most things, I am not an expert on this topic. That being said I believe you are correct in thinking the gay/sm leather culture arose from WWII era bikers. So there really is no difference between the old guard and the leather men. The difference lies between old/new guard. Essentially, OG was intended only for gay males into BDSM. The NG incorporates everyone {i.e. top, bottom, dom, sub, switch, gay lesbian, and all the "t's"}
 
..*pastes her standard disclaimer*.. {Someone more knowledgable will be along shortly to post a more well informed repsonse}

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RE: Old Guard ~ Leather Men.. What are the differences? - 3/15/2011 6:43:03 PM   
peachgirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

Oh f f sake read Jack

http://www.leatherviews.com/cols/search.asp





I think it's much better to hear it from people who live it as opposed to a static source, like a book or a website. I did go to his website yesterday, and while there is some valuable info, it doesn't compare to an answer here and now.

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RE: Old Guard ~ Leather Men.. What are the differences? - 3/15/2011 6:44:14 PM   
peachgirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheShrew

As with most things, I am not an expert on this topic. That being said I believe you are correct in thinking the gay/sm leather culture arose from WWII era bikers. So there really is no difference between the old guard and the leather men. The difference lies between old/new guard. Essentially, OG was intended only for gay males into BDSM. The NG incorporates everyone {i.e. top, bottom, dom, sub, switch, gay lesbian, and all the "t's"}
 
..*pastes her standard disclaimer*.. {Someone more knowledgable will be along shortly to post a more well informed repsonse}


puts a new spin on being an "OG", lol.

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RE: Old Guard ~ Leather Men.. What are the differences? - 3/15/2011 7:17:02 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		You are right on the terminology for Old Guard.  That's why a lot of leather folks don't describe themselves that way.  I'm not gay, male, or a biker but those aren't requirements of being leather now.  These days, the leather community is open regardless of gender or sexual orientation.  Protocols now even specifically state that those characteristics should not influence the way leather folks hold respect for one another nor are they in any way determine seniority. 

I suppose that I'm one of those who align with the philosophy of what some folks call the generations of leather.  There were changes in society, in laws that used to be barriers, even in technological advancements that have impacted the leather community.  I kind of like to think that some of this has influenced us in good ways and we have greater opportunities now as each of these generations of leather have each had their contributions.  Some people will call the prior generation the Old Guard (when they came in, even though not the original Old Guard) because the current generation of "New Guard" isn't quite the same as the last.  For Myself, I find the term leatherman to be more accurate.


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RE: Old Guard ~ Leather Men.. What are the differences? - 3/19/2011 8:32:48 AM   
txurinal


Posts: 209
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Status: offline 		When i think of the term "Old Guard", i think this is about protocol. This was a time when the distinction between MASTER and slave were more rigid and there were defintely rules to follow.

For example, a slave would never speak to a MASTER without being spoken to first. There were strict lines of respect to be observed and followed. MASTERS would never address or touch a slave owned by another without permission.

i think one knew their place then and the "pushy bottom" was probably less tolerated than they seem to be nowadays.

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RE: Old Guard ~ Leather Men.. What are the differences? - 5/26/2011 2:05:27 AM   
michaelDHS


Posts: 3
Joined: 5/25/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: txurinal

When i think of the term "Old Guard", i think this is about protocol. This was a time when the distinction between MASTER and slave were more rigid and there were defintely rules to follow.

For example, a slave would never speak to a MASTER without being spoken to first. There were strict lines of respect to be observed and followed. MASTERS would never address or touch a slave owned by another without permission.

i think one knew their place then and the "pushy bottom" was probably less tolerated than they seem to be nowadays.



i have to completely agree with this.. i know many that would and feel Old Guard is more about tradition within the lifestyle more than anything else

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RE: Old Guard ~ Leather Men.. What are the differences? - 5/26/2011 2:37:44 AM   
CelticPrince


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quote:

Oh f f sake read Jack

http://www.leatherviews.com/cols/search.asp


chuckles

Prin, your so educational!

CP

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RE: Old Guard ~ Leather Men.. What are the differences? - 5/26/2011 2:42:04 AM   
CelticPrince


Posts: 3613
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

When i think of the term "Old Guard", i think this is about protocol. This was a time when the distinction between MASTER and slave were more rigid and there were defintely rules to follow.

For example, a slave would never speak to a MASTER without being spoken to first. There were strict lines of respect to be observed and followed. MASTERS would never address or touch a slave owned by another without permission.

i think one knew their place then and the "pushy bottom" was probably less tolerated than they seem to be nowadays.


txurinal,

well said!

CP

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RE: Old Guard ~ Leather Men.. What are the differences? - 5/26/2011 6:39:29 AM   
aromanholiday


Posts: 307
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Status: offline 		There was a nice overview of this history written in Different Loving: The World of Sexual Dominance and Submission (circa 1993), in the "Victorian Genesis and The Modern Scene" chapter. Follow the Google Books link below, scroll up to page 30 (I couldn't get page 29 to load) and then read forward. There are numerous citations to other sources in that chapter which you can follow up for further information. If you have the book, in the back you'll find a full list of citations. If I remember correctly, they are organized by chapter.

http://books.google.com/books?id=HIeJeIOuqBoC&pg=PA31&lpg=PA31&dq=%22Different+Loving%22++old+guard&source=bl&ots=Ps7T_sfuHH&sig=l-BZMDQlQtuAgEhDRy71seU4NtE&hl=en&ei=51XeTda5N8Tx0gGK08m7Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

< Message edited by aromanholiday -- 5/26/2011 6:40:05 AM >

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RE: Old Guard ~ Leather Men.. What are the differences? - 5/26/2011 7:24:13 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: txurinal

When i think of the term "Old Guard", i think this is about protocol. This was a time when the distinction between MASTER and slave were more rigid and there were defintely rules to follow.

For example, a slave would never speak to a MASTER without being spoken to first. There were strict lines of respect to be observed and followed. MASTERS would never address or touch a slave owned by another without permission.

i think one knew their place then and the "pushy bottom" was probably less tolerated than they seem to be nowadays.


The ones I knew were about having sex without even seeing their partner's face. They went out to the meat rack and had anonymous sex.

What people keep forgetting about the Old Guard is that homosexuality was illegal and if you were found having it, you went to prison. Much of the protocols grew up in an effort to prevent that from happening. Stonewall and decriminalization of homosexuality happened in the U.S. first in June 1969 in NYC. Which meant from the time these men got out of the army in '45 and for the next 25 years while they were establishing careers and had a great deal to lose, they had to stay undercover. And of course, if they lived in Iowa it probably continued for another 15 years.

If you didn't talk to someone, you didn't know their name, you were safer from prosecution and that's the bottom line here.


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