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Doing Good Versus Honesty - 3/3/2011 2:22:26 PM

sunshinemiss

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On another thread a sort of side shoot has come up about honesty. I'm of the "honesty always" camp while other folks are of the "doing good instead of honesty" camp when the two are in conflict. (that'd be Jeff whom I respect a lot. Thus, the discussion)

Now in extreme situations, I can see this. You are in the ER and need to save someone's life and they won't allow you to operate if their X person isn't well... ok, I can see lying to save someone's life. A mugger tells me I will do anything he tells me to do, you bet I'm gonna say yes yes yes before I find an opening and fight like hell. But to save someone's feelings? Not so much.

Now, don't get your knickers in a knot. Honesty doesn't have to be brutal - that's just brutality. If someone asks me, "do you like my new perm?", I don't need to say, "you look like a French poodle who put its paw in an electrical outlet." I can simply redirect, "do you like it?" or soften it, "it's not your best look, but so what?", or be honest, "I don't like it particularly, but whether you like it is all that's important."

I don't advocate lying. In fact, I consider telling someone the truth an actual gift when it is done with compassion and love. It's the CHUB way - clear, honest, usable, brief. If it is used as a weapon, that's just cruel.

On the other hand, I'm also aware that truth and honesty have many layers to them, filtered through our own experiences, beliefs, realities, and emotions. If someone is lying to themselves, then I can choose to call them on it or not. (Generally if I don't care about the person, I won't. Unless I'm bored. Then, who knows?)

Anyway, that's my viewpoint. What do all y'all think?

best,
sunshine

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RE: Doing Good Versus Honesty - 3/3/2011 2:51:06 PM

LaTigresse

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Well my favourite Sunny One.......I used to say that honesty is always the best policy. However, I've come to the conclusion that MOST people........at least most of the people I know, don't really want honesty. Regardless of how it is prettied up. What they want is to have their own opinion affirmed, ego stroked, feelings protected. Basically, they only want honesty if they are going to like what you have to say.

I say the above because over the last few years I have managed to either alienate or hurt, most everyone in my life in one way or another. Now, I know that, on here......I am quite blunt. I generally tend to type with the least amount of words required which usually tends to come across much more harshly than my actual intent. That being said, some of the hurt or alienation issues were partially due to written communication versus spoken. But not the greater percentage.

I have taken every eggshell walking approach possible to honesty. I've asked "Are you 100% sure you want my honest opinion?", I've said things like "You know how much I love you and that what I am going to say is because I love you and want the very best for you.". You name it, I've tried it. And more often than not, it's come back to bite me in the ass.

So from now on, with those I love, unless it's nearly a life and death issue, I am either going to be so bloody vague they will have no clue what my opinion really is, or not say a damned thing. Unless it's on here and then I don't necessarily give a shit. I figure if a person is gonna put their shit on here, then they are going to get my honest opinion.

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RE: Doing Good Versus Honesty - 3/3/2011 2:54:40 PM

LadyPact

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I think you're right to discount the extremes in this. Everybody always pulls that 'what if the person were dying' bit or 'what if you had a gun to your head' stuff. Most people can count how many times that is going to happen in their entire lifetime and have fingers left over.

If this thought comes from the thread I think it did, I didn't see that situation worth lying about. Doesn't mean you have to be intentionally cruel or blurt out six ways to Sunday what the problem was so the other person could be run into the ground. I didn't even bother answering that thread because "the truth" seemed like such an obvious answer.

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RE: Doing Good Versus Honesty - 3/3/2011 5:51:31 PM

DesFIP

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I've got to say I would rather someone didn't say that I looked like a poodle who had stick its paw in the outlet, myself. I'd much prefer if they said they liked it better before. Which would be the truth.

But I love that image of the poodle. Sitting here giggling to myself.

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RE: Doing Good Versus Honesty - 3/3/2011 5:53:25 PM

daintydimples

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Very well stated, sunshine...thank you.

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RE: Doing Good Versus Honesty - 3/3/2011 6:03:54 PM

stellauk

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I live my life to a set of principles. The principles aren't that many, but I stick to them no matter what. It doesn't mean of course that I'm living to a set of fixed principles. They get modified through experience but generally speaking I'm at an age now where pretty much all the major moral dilemmas are behind me.

I affirm much of what LaT has posted. Most people don't want honesty, and many in fact don't really care much for your opinion. They either want validation of what they think, or they want you to think in ways they expect you to think. When they can't get that, they tend to fall back on the two most important sources of external validation - destiny and God.

I'm a very strong advocate of partial relativism. Being human, we all go through various experiences common with everyone else, and we all have experiences which we are able to commonly perceive. However we are all individuals, and we all perceive things in our own individual way. Quite often it is our culture, background, childhood, circumstances, gender, and life experience which puts a particular spin on our perception of what is.

Therefore I say things like 'This is what I see', 'This is how I see it', 'This is what is going through my mind', 'This is what I am feeling'. It kind of softens it, rather than blurting it out as a statement.

If it causes someone to walk away, then so be it. I would rather be alone, isolated and honest than have to lie and leave things unsaid just to keep in with people.

I also don't attach a great deal of permanence to anything I say or express. 'This is what I think' is what I think here, now, at this moment in time. It might apply in an hour's time, it might even apply tomorrow, but then again it might not. You might think it does, or even a week later, but that is your assumption.

The thing is the Universe is constantly changing, expanding, developing, and so are we, components of the Universe. We change, develop, grow, evolve, so do our lives, so do our relationships, and so does our perception.

Of course I can present things in different ways, I'm a playwright, creative, anyone creative can present the truth in many different ways. Just ask a photographer. But not to tell the truth? To lie? To deceive? No. There's no point, and nobody ever really gains from it anyway.

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RE: Doing Good Versus Honesty - 3/3/2011 6:44:28 PM

NocturnalStalker

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If you're not ready for cold honesty then you're not ready for the world.

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RE: Doing Good Versus Honesty - 3/3/2011 7:24:58 PM

SylvereApLeanan

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~FR~

When it comes to someone I with whom have an intimate relationship, whether it's a friend or romantic partner, there's just no excuse good enough to lie. The odds of being in a life or death situation that would necessitate me lying to them is so minimal that it doesn't even register. IMO, if you (generic "you") are both willing to lie to someone you care about and have no remorse for it, that's a pretty clear statement about your lack of integrity. If you can delude yourself into believing you're doing something good by lying, that's a clear statement about the deteriorated state of your mental health. In both cases, you're probably not someone I want to know. You're definitely not someone I want in my life on more than a peripheral level.

That doesn't mean you have to engage in radical or brutal honesty. Tact is a skill everyone should learn. I can't think of a legitimate reason why honesty and doing good should ever be in conflict.

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RE: Doing Good Versus Honesty - 3/3/2011 8:41:17 PM

kdsub

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To me there is nothing noble or virtuous in absolute honesty. Honesty is just describing a truth… it does not make this truth good or bad. A particular truth can be handled just as well with a lie as honesty.

Butch

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RE: Doing Good Versus Honesty - 3/3/2011 9:20:24 PM

IrishMist

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In real life; I am brutally honest...to the extreme. Your poodle hair example,I would have replied that I thought it sucked...in my opinion, they asked for my honesty and I gave it to them. If they had wanted lies, they should have gone and asked someone else.

I am even this brutally honest with my kids. They know that if they ask for my opinion on something, they are going to get nothing but the absolute truth, no matter how much it hurts...and that's why they ask me.

The same goes for anyone else; in real life, and elsewhere.

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RE: Doing Good Versus Honesty - 3/3/2011 9:46:20 PM

Termyn8or

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""you look like a French poodle who put its paw in an electrical outlet." "

Hey, I resemble that remark.

I think it is up to you to modify the degree. I mean if they look like a French poodle who got tooo curious you might say " YIKES ", but telling them they look good would be a lie. You might even say " What happened to you ? ", or something like that, with " did you get your head caught in something ? ". You might want to be more subtle, that's your call.

But if someone asks they are asking for approval or disapproval, tell them the truth, Do it in a funny, serious or dead serious way, but don't lie. If you don't like it, F_____ say so !. That is what they want, why else would they ask ?

Now with people on their deathbed waiting for someone to sign off on some surgery, that is a different story. I don't think I would sign as next of kin of I weren't. But then I am not normal so don't take my position to the polls for the next election.

T^T

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RE: Doing Good Versus Honesty - 3/3/2011 10:42:54 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

IMO, if you (generic "you") are both willing to lie to someone you care about and have no remorse for it, that's a pretty clear statement about your lack of integrity. If you can delude yourself into believing you're doing something good by lying, that's a clear statement about the deteriorated state of your mental health... That doesn't mean you have to engage in radical or brutal honesty. Tact is a skill everyone should learn.

Honesty is a much abused notion. If my girl, delighted with her new cut, looks to me happily and says, "Do you like it?" I am going to say, "I think you look great, sweetie." I am going to say that even if I don't like it. Because I love her. I want her to be happy. And hey, yanno what? It'll be fine once I get used to it. I mean, what's really important here?

Now, you could say I'm not being honest. But there is a world of difference between being honest about your opinions and being honest about your feelings. Too many people use being honest about the former as a way to avoid being honest about the latter. And what passes for being "tactful" is often little more than not being fully honest about either.

K.

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RE: Doing Good Versus Honesty - 3/4/2011 2:07:22 AM

RCdc

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I believe that honesty is not all it seems.

Picking up a 10 pound note that you see someone drop and giving it to them, is being honest.
Telling someone that they new haircut looks like a poodle, is only an example of vocalising personal choice.

Being honest and being kind/doing good are the same thing.

Personal opinion and being kind/doing good is not.
Offering personal opinion to someone that asks for it or even those who haven't, isn't necessarily doing good.

Offering personal opinion is a way to get yourself and your preferences heard. Offering honesty, is a way of doing good.

Urgh...psychobabble...

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RE: Doing Good Versus Honesty - 3/4/2011 4:38:58 AM

IrishMist

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quote:

Urgh...psychobabble...

LMAO

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RE: Doing Good Versus Honesty - 3/4/2011 2:27:52 PM

FukinTroll

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Yes, that bowl of rice does make your ass look big;

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RE: Doing Good Versus Honesty - 3/4/2011 4:33:57 PM

sunshinemiss

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Doggone it FT! Thank goodness I wasn't drinking coffee!

Thanks for the interesting perspectives people.

I'm off on a wild adventure now. Honest. No, really, I am. Laundry, is too exciting! ... when I find money in the pockets, that's kind of... never mind.

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RE: Doing Good Versus Honesty - 3/4/2011 5:25:20 PM

SylvereApLeanan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

Honesty is a much abused notion. If my girl, delighted with her new cut, looks to me happily and says, "Do you like it?" I am going to say, "I think you look great, sweetie." I am going to say that even if I don't like it.

I've been in this situation. A very good friend of mine used to have the most gorgeous hair. It was long, dark and had enough natural curl to make him look like he had a perm. It was the kind of hair women would kill to have. And then he cut it. Now it's buzzed close to his scalp and I don't like it at all. I openly mourned the loss of his beautiful curls. Then I hugged him and told him he'd always be one of the sexiest men I know. Both reactions are completely honest. Neither of them hurt his feelings.

However, I can see how your example is also honest because, in your eyes, your girl is always beautiful...even when she's sick as a dog and looks like death warmed over. It's not complete honesty, but it's honest about what is most important. In her place, I'd probably still want to hear that you need a few days to get used to the new style, in addition to the compliment, but I'm weird that way.

quote:

But there is a world of difference between being honest about your opinions and being honest about your feelings. Too many people use being honest about the former as a way to avoid being honest about the latter. And what passes for being "tactful" is often little more than not being fully honest about either.

I won't argue with that assessment. I also think there are a great many people who don't know how to be honest without being hurtful so they rationalize their dishonesty by saying it's better to lie than to hurt anyone. I just have to call BS on the idea that someone can't do both.

< Message edited by SylvereApLeanan -- 3/4/2011 5:26:06 PM >

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RE: Doing Good Versus Honesty - 3/4/2011 5:38:28 PM

LillyBoPeep

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan
I also think there are a great many people who don't know how to be honest without being hurtful so they rationalize their dishonesty by saying it's better to lie than to hurt anyone. I just have to call BS on the idea that someone can't do both.

i agree with you there; i've met quite a few people who say "i'm just being real," when they're really being hurtful, and can't seem to figure out how to be honest WITHOUT hurting people. it's totally possible; often what makes life unpleasant is just that so many people refuse to learn to do anything any other way BESIDES unpleasantly. =p

i try to find ways to express an opinion honestly, without being "brutal" about it, because i often find that that is simply unnecessary. being honest is important to me, and sometimes other people's happiness is important to me, too. i had a friend who had pretty glorious hair, but started losing it at a young age. he had SO MUCH anxiety about it and finally cut it shorter. he has more confidence now, which i think would've been lost if "honesty at all costs" would've been applied to him.

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