Mind control - keeping it and losing it. (Full Version)

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stellauk -> Mind control - keeping it and losing it. (2/28/2011 5:15:34 PM)

I have just come across this:

Self help author to stand trial in sweat lodge deaths

My initials thoughts are these..

Spiritual development and personal growth isn't some kind of competition, test of endurance, display of status or profit-making enterprise.

I can't help but see a connection with things you find in the media and on reality TV shows, celebrity culture. We are awash with information presented to us constantly by the media, Internet, advertising and other sources.

We face constant pressure to conform, compete, and I wonder whether through the sacrifice of human individuality - which often appears to be under attack - we are losing something fundamental not only to society, but also to our evolution and civilization.

How do you see it?

Thoughts? Comments?



pahunkboy -> RE: Mind control - keeping it and losing it. (2/28/2011 5:42:43 PM)

Stella-  good to have you back.

I took a number of growth seminars in college- ...I am glad I never met this guy.



lazarus1983 -> RE: Mind control - keeping it and losing it. (2/28/2011 6:18:07 PM)

You bring up competition twice in your post, and I'm not sure why.

There was nothing in the article stating it was a competition, to see who could make it through all the rounds.

And again you lop competition in with conformity, when they're completely incompatible. Competition does not destroy the individual, if anything it promotes it. Competition drives the individual to work, train, excel at something. An individual must have self esteem, must have self worth, to prove themselves against others.

If anything, I see more and more the erosion of competition. The celebration of mediocrity. We clip the wings of the strong, and refuse to acknowledge them and their achievements for the sake of others.

Now, to the actual article, that is tough to call. The participants weren't forced to stay in the sweat lodge, but were strongly urged to? Psychologically pressured?

Can we equate strongly urging someone with manslaughter?



Termyn8or -> RE: Mind control - keeping it and losing it. (2/28/2011 6:19:34 PM)

Yeah, where ya been ? Getting a hairdo ?

Kidding aside, trial and tribulation has been the cornerstone of growth and/or development in many cultures. Not even considering the spiritual aspect, the physical aspect is that without stress one does not grow stronger. No pain - no gain, or, that which does not kill us makes us stronger.

American Natives had/have some pretty grueling tests to earn their feathers. Martial arts students are exposed to all forms of "abuse" physically. There are more examples.

Now the way I see this situation, forst of all did they all die ? No.

Therefore now for consideration is their level of stupidity. Let's say for example I engage a martial arts expert, perhaps a third or fourth degree blackbelt, maybe in more than one discipline. This is full contact. This means that winning is to evoke surrender or cause incapacitation. In such a case I could be killed - accidentally. My opponent's goal may have been to make me surrender or knock me unconcious, or even to injure me so that I could fight no more. That is the game.

If I play that game and lose my life rather than just the contest, then I will have died by my own stupidity. But I don't because I really don't have any desire to recieve a Darwin award. Add to that, I think people who are so stupid as to die from it should be allowed. I would rule the case "death by misadventure".

And what kind of dumbass would pay ten grand to step into an oven ? Well people go to steam rooms, this is just a bit more extreme. But as I injured myself years ago trying to lift too much weight, it's my own damn fault. You want I should sue my workout partner ? He left more weight on the bar than I could handle and I walked in the door while he was in another part of his house. I lifted it without counting it up. Alone. This was a bench press and if it were to fall on my neck, I would be dead now, well many years ago. Damn did it hurt as well !

But it didn't cost me any money to get hurt. If I want to bake myself alive I can do it alot cheaper.

The word litagious applies very well to western culture, it rhymes with contagious. This applies to criminal justus as well.

T^T



lazarus1983 -> RE: Mind control - keeping it and losing it. (2/28/2011 6:22:08 PM)

Well Termyn8or that's what you get for bench pressing! It's a silly, impractical exercise.



Termyn8or -> RE: Mind control - keeping it and losing it. (2/28/2011 7:05:55 PM)

Hey, that was only part of it. It's not impractical really, but people dwell on it too much. It only works on a certain group of muscles. It's as useless as an amplified pushup. You don't even want to try the pushups my way, it involves car tires, actually these days, truck tires. If you think those machines are great I disagree. Free weights are the way to go because they force you to maintain balance. Put your feet on a chair, hands on two tires standing up and the do your set while keeping your balance. An added advantage is that you can go down much lower than with the usual pushup.

We did a whole bunch of different exercises, designed to include somehow EVERY muscle in the body. Most people would kill themselves trying. Well not really, but they would sure as hell hurt.

Actually I thought you were going to compliment my post after I read yours. I was going to complioment yours, because really, it is up to the individual. In prosecuting this guy, they are doing what they have been doing for a long time. Taking personal responsibility away from the person.

I take a very dim view of that trend, and I agree with you about the mediocrity. It's being encouraged.

Hey, on the opposite end of the spectrum in the OP, what about those peole who call themselves the polar bears or something like that ? They go swimming in ice cold water in the middle of the winter. Anyone knows this can be fatal because of hypothermia. We must stop them ! (?)

That is the attitude these days. Homogenization starts with egalitarination. If noone is left behind, none get ahead. Even in a car race where each car has the exact same horsepower, even the same torque curve, the contest lies in the driving skill. The trend these days would seek to take even that away.

Speaking of which, there have been deaths on racetracks all over the world, who has been held accountable ? These people are just as dead as those who drank milk and gasoline and threw up in the fireplace. (that was one of the highest ranked Darwin awards in case you forgot)

T^T



lazarus1983 -> RE: Mind control - keeping it and losing it. (2/28/2011 7:14:31 PM)

I don't think machines are useless, I know machines are useless. Placing all the stress on a single immovable joint is a great way to get tendinitis. I come from a strongman background, with some Olympic lifting sprinkled in for explosive effort training. Take a look at my profile pics to see real tires. :)

And I agree, people dwell on the bench press way too much. It's a piss poor test of upper body strength. It wasn't until the 50s that anyone ever cared about benching.




petmonkey -> RE: Mind control - keeping it and losing it. (2/28/2011 8:48:16 PM)

"said he took precautions to forestall harm to the sweat lodge participants, including positioning a nurse and several employees and volunteers trained in CPR outside the sweat lodge and making water, oranges, watermelon and fluids available to participants."

i'm curious how this nurse, employees, and volunteers allowed people to remain in the lodge in such distress. especially, since he was doing this for six years without problems before (not hinted at in the article, at least).  There was some recklessness, some negligence here that isn't clarified in the article.  Something very bad happened here (i suppose i could make a guess as to what from a very "wacky" and "far-out" New Age paradigm, but i won't, it's irrelevant), but i'm not entirely certain it was what the leader of this group said to people. There's no actual account, just hearsay in the article. i will say that not removing participants immediately when they were clearly in distress is outside the typical procedure of these sweats, so that seems highly suspect. i also smell the fainest whiff of prejudice against alternate forms of belief on the horizon in this case that will muddy the court proceedings--which would be unfortunate, if it does happen.

i think i see what you're saying, Stella, about competition and conformity. i will say that i perceive it a little differently though, in the sense that i feel the idea of individualism as opposed to tribalism is a more recent development in human history so don't quit have the same feeling of it "building greater" as you might. For quite some time now there has been ways for society to define how outside the norm one could be and a way to shun those who went too far outside of it. Widow Smith could live on the outskirts of town by herself for years until the Witchfinder General swept into town, for example.  i think we're getting more accepting of exceptions on the whole these days, granted it's still a bit "Be a special snowflake, just not so special that it's distastefully eccentric to us".  Mostly people worry about harm to themselves, their group and their group's ways.  It becomes a sticky situation when people can't objectively see whether someone's specialness or eccentricity doesn't harm them, especially when it challenges their worldview on right living.  They confuse that mental challenge with actual harm.

i do see, in the world around me, people competing to conform the best within societal norms.  If there's something that media/society claims is desirable, there seems to be a pressure to want it, get it, have it, keep it, polish it up shiny like, put it on display, and show it off as a win.  Like a Lexus, for example. . . i don't even want to drive, have no desire to own any car, let alone a fancy one.  A few people i've encountered seem shocked and sometimes--surprisingly to me, disgusted, by this.  i don't see it as synonymous with how i should feel pride in myself or how i should express myself, yet others seem to.

i've been encouraged, to the point of coersive peer-pressure, to go for something that i didn't really want but was important from a societal perspective to have and once i got it was then immediately encouraged to compete against that having of the something to get a similar something that was "better", "greater", or whatever.  Back to the Lexus example,  if i got an used Kia hatchback, it wouldn't be "good enough", i'd then be encouraged to get a better automobile--thus competing with myself to get the ultimate goal--the "best" car on the market.  It's a trap though--i prefer hatchbacks!  No wait, i didn't even want a car in the first place!  i'd merely be struggling for something others define as worthy for me to own, define myself as (car-owner) and dedicate a part of my life toward (being the best car owner of the best car).  Bah humbug to the whole process, i say.

Now extend these odd notions of ownership, what represents pride in self, what media is peddling as right living and mix it with the concepts of Ordeal paths to enlightenment and you get very twisted ideas about how one should go about "achieving" enlightenment, "overcoming" one's weaknesses and "conquering" one's darker self.  Really, stinks to high heaven that.

i feel very sad for those left behind by the dead in this court battle. May their grief be lessened by reminders of good moments with their loved ones.

PS pardon the babbling, guess i'll let it stand. *shrug*



gungadin09 -> RE: Mind control - keeping it and losing it. (2/28/2011 9:02:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk

Spiritual development and personal growth isn't some kind of competition, test of endurance, display of status or profit-making enterprise.

Well, first let me say that i'm not at all spiritual and the whole thing seems pretty ridiculous to me. But this ritual reminded me of ancient Aztec rituals where spirituality and personal growth most certainly were a kind of competition, a test of endurance, and a display of status. (If not a profit making enterprise.) Spirituality apparently doesn't mean that for you. It doesn't mean that for me. But for other people? i guess it means whatever *they* think it means.

Doubtless people wouldn't have plunked down $10,000 to go through some sort of near death experience (or actual death, in some cases) if they didn't think they were getting *something* out of it. God knowns what. But they must have thought it was worth it. Do i think they're stupid? Yes. Do i think they should be prevented from making that decision? No. Do i think the guy should be held criminally liable for these deaths? i'm not sure.

I can't help but see a connection with things you find in the media and on reality TV shows, celebrity culture. We are awash with information presented to us constantly by the media, Internet, advertising and other sources.

i'm not sure i understand. If you're saying that the media sells the idea that life is one big competition, then, yes, i agree.

We face constant pressure to conform, compete, and I wonder whether through the sacrifice of human individuality - which often appears to be under attack - we are losing something fundamental not only to society, but also to our evolution and civilization.

i agree that society pressures individuals to compete and conform. i think that that's true over all societies, and over all of history. i think there are good and bad aspects to competing and conforming. It makes society more uniform, but, yes, at the expense of the individual. i'm not sure that that pressure (the pressure to compete and conform) is greater now than it ever has been. So, i'm not sure that the loss of individuality is greater now than it ever has been. At least not the loss of individuality due to the pressure to compete and conform.

i do think there is a loss of culture and individuality due to the internet and the globalization of society. i think that the world over we're becoming more homogenised and "same", and i can't say i think that's a good thing. But i blame that on the internet, on imperialism perhaps, instead of blaming it on competition and conforming, per se. Although i can see how the two are related, imperialism and the pressure to conform to American society, which is competitive.

How do you see it?

These are my feelings on the matter: i like to get tied up and have people do mean things to me. i can testify that when that happens i feel a pressure to endure and that i feel a great sense of failure if i fall short. i also feel a great sense of accomplishment if i make it all the way through. Is that a pressure to compete and conform? Yes. Is it necessarily bad? i don't think so. Most anything that's worth doing is also hard. Of course, by that same logic, people go out into the Arizona wilderness and subject themselves to some sort of heat stroke ritual. (*shrugs*).

i don't think that the participants in this ritual sacrificed their individuality. Actually, i think that by participating in the ritual they were *expressing* their nonconformity and individuality. It's just unfortunate that they ended up dying for doing it. To me, the articles demonstrates that all three victims were given the option to leave, and made the decision to stay in spite of it. The pressure to compete and conform didn't come from society or some sort of "mind control", it came from within themselves.

i don't think that what happened constitutes "mind control", even in spite of the altered mental status of the participants. i would make exactly the same argument for a submissive who was seriously injured while in subspace. In other words, that the activities they have chosen to participate in are not without risk, and that they assume that risk going into it. They also assume the risk that the activities may *cause* an altered mental status, and thus impair their judgement. The Dominant in such a case would be responsible for taking reasonable precautions. They should not be held responsible for the fact that accidents sometimes happen when engaging in risky behavior.

The guy running this thing made sure a nurse was present as well as volunteers trained in CPR. There were fluids available and the participants were encouraged to stay hydrated. Nobody was prevented from leaving the tent, and those who collapsed were removed. Some of them, upon regaining consciousness, chose to go back in. Was he still negligent? Should he have known that things were getting out of hand? For me, it's impossible to make a definitive judgement from the limited information in the article. From the information that was given, it doesn't appear to me that the guy was negligent, or applying some kind of undue pressure or mind control.

pam



PeonForHer -> RE: Mind control - keeping it and losing it. (2/28/2011 9:04:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk

How do you see it?

Thoughts? Comments?


I had some passing acquaintanceship with a variety of North American Shamanism a while back, Stella. A friend, a housemate, was into it in a big way. The idea had just jumped the pond and taken off here. This friend took me along to a couple of meets and . . . my worst fear was realised: that of an encouraging of 'guruism': unquestion acceptance of a 'greater wisdom'. After three lectures over (though I'm not sure the 'Shaman' concerned would have called them that) over three nights, there was still no time allocated to questions from the audience. Instead, at the end of each lecture, the Shaman would get the audience to stand and perform dances, exercises, games of supposedly 'spirit-releasing' kinds . . . but there was no place for challenging him.

James Ray didn't know what he was frigging doing. Intelligent people, who had been encouraged to 'go beyond their mere reasoning minds' - switched off their critical and suspicious faculties as a result. They'd rendered themselves unable to see that he was a berk.

It was ever thus. Once the gurus were churchmen, then they were scientists and now, for some, they're one or another new age purveyor of some species of a 'greater Truth' (generally with that bloody tiresome capital 'T' so beloved of such windbags). It's the two sides of the authoritarian coin, once again: the one side wanting to be the great authority whom no-one questions; the other side yearning to find someone who enables them to ditch their rationality and assume responsibility for their minds and spirits.




Termyn8or -> RE: Mind control - keeping it and losing it. (2/28/2011 9:53:11 PM)

FRTA    [ta means to all]

This is going off course, I think. I think that, I do not mean it to be imposed, I just state it.

I thought the OP was about the prosecution, and possibly the intelligence of those who practice things that get them killed. What the prosecution means, not the prosecutor, but the fact that it is deemed prosecutable. It seems to gravitate into the obvious opponence of individualism and collectivism. At least that's how it seems to me.

These things have been happening for a long time. Jim Jones and the koolaid, well this guy didn't do that. Other total freakazoids. They've been around for quite some time. The people who follow them like lemmings into the ocean, one must really stop to think at some time, as overpopulation grows all around us, under and over us all the time, do we want these people who are that stupid among us ?

You put Charlie Manson in prison because these dumb cunt did his crazy bidding. How about their Parents who abdicated their responsibility for their education ? Is that not a crime ? Well maybe not in law but it sure as hell is in nature. And the penalty inflicted by nature for that crime is to see your offspring suffer and possibly perish. It is a harsh law, but one that is enforced vigorously.

Here comes Man's law. There have been societies in which Man's law tended to enforce Nature's law. Gone or not, they were comprised of people who were able to survive. Since we have language, and it can be used improperly, isn't it the responsibility of the teachers to prepare the students for such a possibility ? You make them wear a seat belt.

You know I am totally against seat belts. Know why ? LEARN HOW TO DRIVE. Just don't hit things. What, you make your kids wear seat belt because they don't know how to drive and you want them to survive accidents that may kill others ? FUCK YOU !

I'll keep my risk in my hands thank you. Everything about my life says to let this guy out and refund his bail. If I were the judge I would throw the case out unless they could prove he forced them into that building, hut, barn whatthefuckever.

Give them Darwin awards.

T^T



gungadin09 -> RE: Mind control - keeping it and losing it. (3/1/2011 3:13:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk
We face constant pressure to conform, compete, and I wonder whether through the sacrifice of human individuality - which often appears to be under attack - we are losing something fundamental not only to society, but also to our evolution and civilization.


This is just to add:

i agree with this statement. i think there's a strong pressure on individuals to conform to whatever group they're in, and that pressure has the effect of "homogenizing" society. Too many people do things just because they see other people doing them. Folks tend to follow the crowd.

Having said that, i'm not sure that the Arizona incident is the best example of that. Signing up for some kind of wilderness heatstroke ritual, for the purpose of gaining enlightenment, seems about as nonconformist as it gets.

pam



Termyn8or -> RE: Mind control - keeping it and losing it. (3/1/2011 4:55:35 AM)

How about eating about a dozen peyote buttons and climbing down into a hole in the ground. I did three and tripped for a whole night and a day. I did it the way the Natives did, ALONE. ( well it was a Rambler, not a hole ) It was quite an experience. And I did think about death. And I did think about life. Also I thought about both when I got shot in the face. (circa 1982)

T^T



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