Politics and too much security (Full Version)

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jlf1961 -> Politics and too much security (2/15/2011 4:27:17 PM)

Recently I heard a news commentator call for putting a camera on every street corner to deter crime. The commentator was Jane Velaz Mitchel.

There is cctv cameras to catch speeders and people running red lights, in fact they are all over the place in my home town.

A 2008 Report by UK Police Chiefs concluded that only 3% of crimes were solved by CCTV. source

Chicago has installed many cameras in order to deter crime:


quote:

A giant web of video-surveillance cameras has spread across Chicago, aiding police in the pursuit of criminals but raising fears that the City of Big Shoulders is becoming the City of Big Brother.

While many police forces are boosting video monitoring, video-surveillance experts believe Chicago has gone further than any other U.S. city in merging computer and video technology to police the streets. The networked system is also unusual because of its scope and the integration of nonpolice cameras.

The city links the 1,500 cameras that police have placed in trouble spots with thousands more—police won't say how many—that have been installed by other government agencies and the private sector in city buses, businesses, public schools, subway stations, housing projects and elsewhere. Even home owners can contribute camera feeds.

source



When does it become to much? Are politicians actually considering this move, considering the evidence provided by the UK proving that CCTV has done little to aid in solving crimes?




DomKen -> RE: Politics and too much security (2/16/2011 2:07:20 AM)

The Chicago cameras work as a deterent. The ones installed by the police have flashing blue lights. Drug dealers and the like are unwilling to do their thing under those flashing lights.




rulemylife -> RE: Politics and too much security (2/16/2011 2:07:28 AM)

Some of this is a little dated, but I used to to spend a lot of time in Tampa on business trips and Ybor, which is a large entertainment district which had, and still has, a lot of controversy over the issue.

It was not a comfortable feeling to be under constant surveillance.

Wearing masks and making obscene gestures at police cameras, about 100 people on Saturday protested a new security system that scans faces in the city's night life district to search for suspects in crimes and runaways. "Being watched on a public street is just plain wrong," said May Becker, wearing a bar code sticker on her forehead. Ms. Becker joined demonstrators in the Ybor City district on Saturday night, wearing a sign reading, "We're under house arrest in the land of the free.



[image]http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2001/0107/tampa0716.jpg[/image] A video monitoring sign in the Ybor City district of Tampa
Read more: http://www.time.com



Hillsborough: Ybor cameras won't seek what they never found

Dancers tango through Ybor as surveillance camera protest










Aneirin -> RE: Politics and too much security (2/16/2011 3:53:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Recently I heard a news commentator call for putting a camera on every street corner to deter crime. The commentator was Jane Velaz Mitchel.

There is cctv cameras to catch speeders and people running red lights, in fact they are all over the place in my home town.

A 2008 Report by UK Police Chiefs concluded that only 3% of crimes were solved by CCTV. source

Chicago has installed many cameras in order to deter crime:


quote:

A giant web of video-surveillance cameras has spread across Chicago, aiding police in the pursuit of criminals but raising fears that the City of Big Shoulders is becoming the City of Big Brother.

While many police forces are boosting video monitoring, video-surveillance experts believe Chicago has gone further than any other U.S. city in merging computer and video technology to police the streets. The networked system is also unusual because of its scope and the integration of nonpolice cameras.

The city links the 1,500 cameras that police have placed in trouble spots with thousands more—police won't say how many—that have been installed by other government agencies and the private sector in city buses, businesses, public schools, subway stations, housing projects and elsewhere. Even home owners can contribute camera feeds.

source



When does it become to much? Are politicians actually considering this move, considering the evidence provided by the UK proving that CCTV has done little to aid in solving crimes?


'Help to reduce crime', was the reason we were sold the video monitoring of our streets, that was bullshit and now most know it, for they don't help that much at all, apart from provide the material for tv programs to show the public to justify more surveillance, and create the fear that the streets are full of crime. Many in the UK are dummy cameras, plain don't work, or are not switched on, they are to all intents and purposes visual street pollution.

The other thing that many do not consider, is the fact that through video surveillance everyone is a suspect, everyone is being watched in case they do a crime.

A chap I heard about a few years back, parked his flash car in a municipality run so called secure car park, secure by it being so it was said, constantly video monitored. He parked his car in what he reckoned was a good place and paid the toll to be there instead of parking anywhere else. He picked a spot he reckoned his car would be viewed from two angles went away, and came back to find his car gone, stolen. Ok, there will be video evidence, but why had the police not come to stop the crime he wondered, only to find both cameras in the car park were broken, they were recording nothing, he never got his car back. Now if cameras are to be used , then they must be working, and they must be of use in stopping crime, the reason we are told for their existence, if it should be found out that the cameras are dummy, broken, not switched on or not being watched, then that should be a punishable crime, as there is no use having a device set up to prevent crime, if it does not work.

Where I used to live, in front of the house, thea area was frequented with drunks, drug users and prostitutes, it also being a place of communication, where the buses stopped, the public telephones are, the place was always an attraction to all types of undesireable. The public phone box there was used as the ordering point for drugs, a user went and made his call and a  few minutes later, the ubiquitos white mercedes with blacked out windows would turn up and have a conversation with the now loitering drug customer, exchanges would take place and the car drive off. Hopefully the now happy customer would just piss off, but sometimes they didn't, and there took to mine and my neighbour's cars, forcing entry, or just plain vandalising. Constant calls to the police were made, we all, that is myself and m neighbours monitored what was happening and bombarded the police switchboard with crimes as they happened. In the end, the police continually failed to turn up, so we all suggested cctv monitoring, put is a neighbourhood case for it, but it was denied on the grounds on insufficient funding, only later a cop made an off hand remark saying the real reason was they knew it was a high crime spot, but they didn't want to be having to come out every second of the day and also it was good that the majority of street crime was concentrated in one spot, not all over the area. Oh fab, what about us, why was our neighbourhood to be the victim of crime, just because the police could not be bothered to do their job.

CCTV cameras exist to either stop crime before it happens, there saying we are all suspects, or they are a political symbol to suggest the  security people are doing their job, and we can all rest assured we and our property are safe from crime, they are in most respects, a cop out.




jlf1961 -> RE: Politics and too much security (2/16/2011 5:41:21 AM)

That is the whole point, cctv is not a crime deterrent.

For one thing, cities are cutting back on police due to the current financial crisis, added to the fact you would have to increase the police force to monitor the video feeds and have police in an area to respond.




Moonhead -> RE: Politics and too much security (2/16/2011 5:52:00 AM)

CCTV systems are generally pretty useless. However, they can still be pointed at as evidence that something's being done, regardless of whether they do any good or not.




DCWoody -> RE: Politics and too much security (2/16/2011 6:27:36 AM)

I'd say 3% of crimes is quite nice. Certainly you wouldn't sniff at a 3% fall in crime....although we've been getting that for decades and the papers always run with the 1 subsection of crime that's randomly increasedthat year....

IMO privacy concerns are groundless, your privacy can not be invaded by looking at you in public, it's a ridiculous argument.....but a camera on every street corner seems expensive & pointless. Put 'em on the high streets to stop muggers and pick pockets, around schools to make people drive careful...waste of money to bung 'em on any old residential corner.

EDIT:Read the rest of thread, full of crap.....do you really think there are people sitting in little rooms watching each CCTV live?




Moonhead -> RE: Politics and too much security (2/16/2011 7:23:46 AM)

Moat towns have all the cameras routed to one room with a couple of bored security spods (not rozzers, somebody from whatever security form the frnachise has been contracted to) who have about as much hope of spotting something going on from a camera feed as they'd have standing on the top floor of the multistory car park with a telescope, true enough.




willbeurdaddy -> RE: Politics and too much security (2/16/2011 11:34:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

I'd say 3% of crimes is quite nice. Certainly you wouldn't sniff at a 3% fall in crime....although we've been getting that for decades and the papers always run with the 1 subsection of crime that's randomly increasedthat year....

IMO privacy concerns are groundless, your privacy can not be invaded by looking at you in public, it's a ridiculous argument.....but a camera on every street corner seems expensive & pointless. Put 'em on the high streets to stop muggers and pick pockets, around schools to make people drive careful...waste of money to bung 'em on any old residential corner.

EDIT:Read the rest of thread, full of crap.....do you really think there are people sitting in little rooms watching each CCTV live?




It isnt as much the 3% that are solved via the cameras but the crimes that didnt happen because of them. Yes, some of them may have just been shifted to areas without cameras, but most street crimes are crimes of opportunity, and to think there is no deterrence factor in otherwise high risk areas is nonsense.




Hillwilliam -> RE: Politics and too much security (2/16/2011 11:39:04 AM)

Big Brother is Watching.




Fellow -> RE: Politics and too much security (2/16/2011 1:23:02 PM)

quote:

When does it become to much? Are politicians actually considering this move, considering the evidence provided by the UK proving that CCTV has done little to aid in solving crimes?


Obama just increased Homeland Security department budget. It is not about crime. What type of surveillance tools are implemented depends which business lobbies the most for funding.  The main reason is the fear of public unrest due to worsening economic situation. Notice riots popping up around the World. It does not take long to reach the US. The money has been printed, guess how long it takes to be reflected as high inflation in Main Street?




Politesub53 -> RE: Politics and too much security (2/16/2011 4:20:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

That is the whole point, cctv is not a crime deterrent.

For one thing, cities are cutting back on police due to the current financial crisis, added to the fact you would have to increase the police force to monitor the video feeds and have police in an area to respond.


It is a deterrent and has worked well in many UK towns and cities. The fact the cameras are there deteres criminals, since they dont know if the cameras are manned or not. It certainly prevents crime in the area cameras are installed in.

If there is any drawback it is crime has been displaced to areas with no cctv. IE It has moved further away from the town centres.




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