RE: Legally speaking, what is a "house"?

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RE: Legally speaking, what is a "house"? - 1/9/2011 8:28:36 AM

LadyConstanze

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Usually the area here is fine, but at the end of the garden, the property borders on something like a small private passage way (wide enough for a car) which is the back entrance to 3 houses that are in a bit of a sorry state, when we bought the house the estate agent told us they would be torn down soon (who would have thought estate agents lie through their teeth), one of them is sort of a bedsit with steady changing people who also are quite fond of blasting music at odd hours (like when they come home drunk), one is the one without curtains at their bathroom (unfortunately the exact view I get out of my kitchen window - I trained myself to not look out) most of the plants we put up there have a way of dying rather quickly, there's also always rubbish tossed over the fence (we put a high wooden fence up, they still manage to throw stuff over, especially bottles or cans of cheap cider or beer) and stuff has gone missing from the shed or our garden or just being trashed (I don't think anybody has use for stealing one wellie in size 3 instead of taking the pair), other neighbours made the same experience, so we do have a fair idea as to where it might stem from.

I checked with the cops as we thought it might stop people climbing over and nicking stuff (some of it rather useless and just taken because they can) by making climbing over an unpleasant and painful experience, I chatted with friendly cops and they suggested it's not a good idea, as if a child would hurt itself we could be liable, chances of a burglar saying "Hurt myself as I tried to break in" are rather small.

I know the beware of dog sign is not 100% however having the sign up gives me and Kia a measure of protection. I find it simply absurd that somebody who trespasses - possibly with the intend of burglary - is treated almost with velvet gloves. Though I kinda liked how the friendly cops phrased it "In case you have the slightest injury, like a scratch, you could assume the person was dangerous, they better hope you didn't scrape your arm on a wall if they pushed you..." So in short, if I should catch a burglar in the house, I make sure I have an injury so I can defend myself with "reasonable force".

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RE: Legally speaking, what is a "house"? - 1/9/2011 9:04:54 AM

RapierFugue

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
I know the beware of dog sign is not 100% however having the sign up gives me and Kia a measure of protection. I find it simply absurd that somebody who trespasses - possibly with the intend of burglary - is treated almost with velvet gloves.

Oh I quite agree. All that "an Englishman's home is his castle" stuff just doesn't translate into law I'm afraid.

On the "people coming over the fence thing" ... a mate had this issue with local kids making a nuisance, so he planted (because plants, as we said, are fine) some very tough, thorny bushes, right underneath their usual entry point. He spent a week of nights digging one then another out of the things in agony, while giving them a nice lecture at the same time, and after that was never troubled again.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
Though I kinda liked how the friendly cops phrased it "In case you have the slightest injury, like a scratch, you could assume the person was dangerous, they better hope you didn't scrape your arm on a wall if they pushed you..." So in short, if I should catch a burglar in the house, I make sure I have an injury so I can defend myself with "reasonable force".

If it looks like you did restraining damage (broken arm or leg as they "fell over", dislocated shoulder, wrist etc) then you're in no trouble, and even if plod take against you there's fuck all they can say about it, assuming you stick to your "I was restraining him when we fell over due to his struggling" story. Where it gets sticky is where there's clear impact damage.

So, if you have to bash them, make sure, once they're down, that you then take their face (or wherever) and scrape it down a brick wall, so you can later claim they fell against it during your attempts to restrain them.

<innocent whistling> ;)

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RE: Legally speaking, what is a "house"? - 1/9/2011 9:09:42 AM

Jaybeee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee
My neighbour is a moslem lady, she happens to be a very nice one but that doesn't stop me walking back/forth to the gym in my shed wearing just a pair of speedo's on a hot summer's day. If her husband has a problem with that, trust me, it won't be long before I settle his problem.

Strangely enough you don't have the "right" to be naked in your own garden, if it is overlooked* - there was a test case on this last year, IIRC. As you're wearing swimming trunks though you're fine, and there's nothing he could do legally.

He'd better not try anything on illegally either. That said, this whole thing has got my writing style all riled up. They're actually bloody good people, I've taken him out for drinks and she has brought round plates of food when my gf was out and I was under the weather (and yeah, I answered the door in a towel, though for a woman of her faith I noticed a slight lingering of her eyes where they shouldn't have strayed)

quote:

*although if you have high fences and can only be viewed by neighbours moving to "non-usual" areas of their home (like standing on a dressing table, for instance) then that doesn't count as "overlooked" as far as nudity is concerned. You'd have to have low fences or gaps, or be visible from an upstairs veranda for it to be enforced.

You're clearly a man who knows a bit about the law, at what height does the law draw the line between me not ensuring my fence is high enough, and them standing on a can of paint to invite me over to their barbecue?

quote:

ETA: PS, it's "Muslim" not "Moslem", unless you're deliberately trying to offend the individual. I only discovered this myself recently.

Gotcha chief. Additionally, it's pronounced "Mooss-lim", rhyming with the German "Muss", and not like "Muzzle him".

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RE: Legally speaking, what is a "house"? - 1/9/2011 9:12:28 AM

Jaybeee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

So, if you have to bash them, make sure, once they're down, that you then take their face (or wherever) and scrape it down a brick wall, so you can later claim they fell against it during your attempts to restrain them.

<innocent whistling> ;)

LMFAO for real!!!

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RE: Legally speaking, what is a "house"? - 1/9/2011 9:19:07 AM

RapierFugue

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee
at what height does the law draw the line between me not ensuring my fence is high enough, and them standing on a can of paint to invite me over to their barbecue?

The last time I looked into this it was assumed that if your fences are at or above head-height (taken as 6 foot or over, IIRC, although that's probably a metric measurement now) then you've done your best to keep yourself private, and aren't liable. Assuming the fence is opaque and solid, not a lattice where you can see through, for example.

If they stand on anything in order to see into your garden that's their issue, not yours. It's only if somewhere they can easily reach (like a 1st floor veranda or balcony) looks over your garden could they object. Same goes for (and why anyone would do this I have no idea) if they have a trampoline - it's not your problem if your fences are of sufficient height and they bounce up and see your ... er ... bouncers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee
Gotcha chief. Additionally, it's pronounced "Mooss-lim", rhyming with the German "Muss", and not like "Muzzle him".

That would also help prevent confusion with "muslin" (the cloth). Drives me up the wall when I hear or read that one.

< Message edited by RapierFugue -- 1/9/2011 9:21:06 AM >

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RE: Legally speaking, what is a "house"? - 1/9/2011 9:37:24 AM

RapierFugue

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

So, if you have to bash them, make sure, once they're down, that you then take their face (or wherever) and scrape it down a brick wall, so you can later claim they fell against it during your attempts to restrain them.

<innocent whistling> ;)

LMFAO for real!!!

The weird thing about British law (and no, I'm not an expert, I just know some stuff I've picked up over the years) is that there's usually a way around something, or a way of phrasing something such that the forces of law & order are satisfied. These days the law's just a big machine; it doesn't really care about justice, or even right and wrong, just that some boxes are ticked. If you can tick the boxes then you can pretty much carry on. If you can't, you end up in trouble. Your rights to defend yourself in your own home may sound pathetically weak, but compared to what happens if the incident occurs on the street they're miles better (for you).

With the heroin-addled toe-rag I ended up having to deal with it was a case of having been briefed on the sort and degree of injuries one might reasonably expect to see if one had struggled, and then fallen over with/onto an assailant. Oh dear, he's fallen over and oh what a shame my knee's clonked down on the middle of his arm while it's braced at an angle and oh dearie me it's broken (makes a hell of a noise I can tell you - I felt quite queasy). Basically, stay clear of the head, don’t punch or kick (especially if you’re wearing treaded trainers as they’ll take a cast and you’ll be fucked when the bruising comes out), never attempt strangle or choke holds as they can be construed as attempted murder in the wrong circumstances, and just stick to judo or jujitsu type holds and locks, followed by a bit of "oh no we're falling over now, oh dear I’m really sorry pal".

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RE: Legally speaking, what is a "house"? - 1/9/2011 10:41:16 AM

LadyConstanze

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

On the "people coming over the fence thing" ... a mate had this issue with local kids making a nuisance, so he planted (because plants, as we said, are fine) some very tough, thorny bushes, right underneath their usual entry point. He spent a week of nights digging one then another out of the things in agony, while giving them a nice lecture at the same time, and after that was never troubled again.

I wouldn't have much of an issue with kids, the kids living a house further often ask if they can play football in our garden as their mom has flower beds everywhere, which is not too great when it comes to play footy, due to Kia it's mainly just grass so she can run around and I don't have the patience to have a super cultivated garden anyway, I'm happy with a lawn. The thorny plants I planted at the end of the fence tend to get quite a bit of acid or something like that, so not a lot of success and somehow I am really not pleased that every 2 to 3 days I end up with a bin bag full of rubbish (mainly empty cans), I have been sorely tempted to throw them back and aim for their windows, but that would mean I'm breaking the law....

I'm not being a snob here, but if those 3 houses (including the people living in them) would disappear, I think everybody in the area would be quite relieved, as it is we can only hope that their roofs will crash down because it doesn't appear that the owners are maintaining the properties in the slightest and the people who rent are people who apparently don't put any value in how they live or respect other people's property. I seriously have no issue if somebody wants to smoke herbal stuff, it's just I don't want the butts and empty cans in my garden - one would think it's easier to throw it in the bin than throwing it over a 6 foot high fence...

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RE: Legally speaking, what is a "house"? - 1/10/2011 5:46:40 AM

DesFIP

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Here in NY state, I can shoot a bear that is breaking into my house. But if he's just prowling around the porch, the most I can do is use rubber bullets. I looked at the park ranger who explained this to me (an old friend) and explained that I have a better idea, I'm going to wake him up and let him come over here and deal with the creature. This was after the bear was 20' from the house, and I called him up in a panic to have him ask me if the bear looked healthy as nobody had reported seeing him for a couple of weeks. I did offer to put it on the phone...

Since I border on the NYC aqueduct, which borders on 1200 acres of preserve, which borders on 6,000 acres of state park, I have more difficulty with wildlife than with people. I only lock the door if we're going away overnight.

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RE: Legally speaking, what is a "house"? - 1/10/2011 5:55:48 AM

RapierFugue

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
Here in NY state, I can shoot a bear that is breaking into my house. But if he's just prowling around the porch, the most I can do is use rubber bullets.

That made me laugh. A lot :)

I got visions of someone loading rubber bullets, then frantically changing ammo as the bear came over the threshold :)

“Loaded for bear!”

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