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RE: Do things happen or do we make them? - 12/15/2010 5:37:29 AM

oldbabyface

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss
What do you all think?

I think pushy people push people away.

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RE: Do things happen or do we make them? - 12/15/2010 5:48:25 AM

CaringandReal

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

quote:

Sometimes, when you quit looking so damn hard for something..............................it finds you.

sunshine

I'd like to respond to the general question in your thread title, but first lets deal with the quote.

The reason why this happens, I believe, is because when many a person is looking so damn hard for something, they aren't actually looking for it. They are fooling themselves into thinking they are looking for it. The reasons for this vary but a common one is because they think they are "supposed to" be looking for it (societal pressure, instilled expectations, and so on). Another common reason is that they are actually very frightened of what it is they want, and while engaging in the busywork of studiously looking for it, they can cleverly (so cleverly they do not notice it in themselves) avoid all occurances of the very object that they seek. But when you you stop spinning about on your various quests, and are still and relax and stare up at the trees, the thing that was there all along will often pop out into your attention, becuase you are no longer defending so strongly against it with your great quest.

As for do things happen or do we make them? The answer is both. I keep a fairytale book in the john and this morning's story seems to address this issue. It was about a freed slave (that part I didn't like, but in the fairy story it was considered A Good Thing) that was given a ship full of goods by his kind and generous master and advised to go trading and make his fortune in the world that way. But his ship wrecked and he crawled up upon an island, naked and with no possessions. (things happen) The people of the island took him and with great fanfare made him their king. (things happen) He asked his wise advisors why in the world this was happening and they told him that once a year the spirits of the island brought them someone, naked and penniless, whom they made king. This person ruled for a single year, and then was stripped of all power and sent all alone to another, most desolate island to fend for himself. They described how all their past "rulers" had spent their year in enjoyment, in intentional denial and forgetfulness of this fact, and when they were banished to the desolate island, they had nothing, once again. The advisors suggested to the new king that he not waste a second of his short year: that he send people to cultivate the land on the desolate island, build housing, take up residence there and prepare a place for him there as their ruler. He did so (we make them happen) and lived happily for the rest of his life in the new kingdom when he was finally banished.

I realize this story is an obvious parable about life and death, but let's ignore the obvious for the moment. It demonstrates, quite clearly, that things happen (events beyond our control, like the shipwreck) and that these things, which we are given, can be worked with, used, fashioned, if only in our minds and sprits, into something else, something beneficial, if we are of a mind to seize the moment. Yes indeed, we do make things happen, but not in isolation from the rest of the world which imposes its will upon us in so many controlling and degrading ways. We make things happen by working with the things that we are given, the things, good and bad, that "happen" to us.

< Message edited by CaringandReal -- 12/15/2010 5:50:57 AM >

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RE: Do things happen or do we make them? - 12/15/2010 6:01:46 AM

LadyConstanze

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

I go on interviews even if I am not that interested in a job simply due to the experience, and you know, if I expect a rather generous pay check from them, it's only fair that they want to know what they're getting for it. In case one of the people applying for the job would have asked me why he should work for the company, I possibly would have smiled sweetly, pointed out that he applied and that I agree that maybe he shouldn't as he doesn't seem to be terribly interested.

Then he'd be within his rights to point out that you advertised, although that would be a petty reply to the alarm bell you just rang. The reaction you've described above is characteristic, in most cases, of a poor interviewer (or an interviewer of of very poor people). In every single interview I'd had (except where I was a contractor, or the few with agencies), the interviewer tried (usually without the prompt of "Why should I work for this company?") to speak directly about the benefits of working there, the company's plans for growth, the possibly of rapid promotion etc. This is professional interviewing. If I'm interviewing some ex-convict or ex-military then I might choose to remind him of the value of work, but I wouldn't insult a man who could potentially earn my company millions (unless it were a tactic when interviewing a Sales Manager or Ops Director to see how well he copes under sudden, unforseen and unreasonable pressure )

The reason your candidate is asking why he should work for your company, is because he IS interested - not because he isn't. You and whoever else is sitting in are first people he meets, and he will judge the calibre of staff according to the evidence in front of him. Please remember that!!

Jaybeee, sorry but complete failure on your part.

quote:

In every single interview I'd had (except where I was a contractor, or the few with agencies), the interviewer tried (usually without the prompt of "Why should I work for this company?") to speak directly about the benefits of working there, the company's plans for growth, the possibly of rapid promotion etc. This is professional interviewing.

Yes, that happens at the start of the interview, so if he needs to ask "Why should I work for you" he's a poor candidate who didn't listen or isn't interested - and that question will show that crystal clear! Any professional interview will talk about the benefits and why you should work for the company, if that was outlined and you still need to ask, it shows that you're a bit slow on the uptake and not the right candidate, or you're an egomaniac who wants to stress how important you are - again, not good for the team.

Have you ever been to an interview for a permanent job where the interviewer didn't talk about the company, the benefits of working for the company, your chances for promotion, etc.? I haven't, and if I need to ask "Why should I work for you" after they have outlined it for me, I show myself in the worst light possible, at the best an arrogant twat, at the worst somebody who's not smart enough to understand what somebody is saying. Simple as that...

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RE: Do things happen or do we make them? - 12/15/2010 6:14:18 AM

sunshinemiss

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Ahhh C and R -
Making lemonade out of lemons. YAY!

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RE: Do things happen or do we make them? - 12/15/2010 7:17:17 AM

VaguelyCurious

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FR

Taking the original quote

quote:

'Sometimes, when you quit looking so damn hard for something..............................it finds you.'

...just in isolation (without building a whole melodrama around it), I think this ties in with something Lady C said on another thread, about probability.

You don't notice the thousand and one things you look for in a period of time that you just find (whether we're talking about hacksaws in the short-term or relationships in the long) because the finding of them isn't particularly memorable. The things that you get all dramatic and quit looking for and then trip over on the way out of the room five seconds later, however, tend to stick in your memory, because they *are* memorable. So they are over-represented in your perception of the past.

This is one of the times when you can't take your perceptions of the world around you to be accurate, because the human brain intuitively tells actual probability maths to go fuck itself sometimes.

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RE: Do things happen or do we make them? - 12/15/2010 10:25:55 AM

allthatjaz

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My dear granddad used to tell me, 'if you want and believe in something enough it will come towards you but as soon as you start to doubt, hurdles will go up' I have often reminded myself of those wise words, especially in my career.

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RE: Do things happen or do we make them? - 12/15/2010 12:07:08 PM

Jaybeee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

I go on interviews even if I am not that interested in a job simply due to the experience, and you know, if I expect a rather generous pay check from them, it's only fair that they want to know what they're getting for it. In case one of the people applying for the job would have asked me why he should work for the company, I possibly would have smiled sweetly, pointed out that he applied and that I agree that maybe he shouldn't as he doesn't seem to be terribly interested.

Then he'd be within his rights to point out that you advertised, although that would be a petty reply to the alarm bell you just rang. The reaction you've described above is characteristic, in most cases, of a poor interviewer (or an interviewer of of very poor people). In every single interview I'd had (except where I was a contractor, or the few with agencies), the interviewer tried (usually without the prompt of "Why should I work for this company?") to speak directly about the benefits of working there, the company's plans for growth, the possibly of rapid promotion etc. This is professional interviewing. If I'm interviewing some ex-convict or ex-military then I might choose to remind him of the value of work, but I wouldn't insult a man who could potentially earn my company millions (unless it were a tactic when interviewing a Sales Manager or Ops Director to see how well he copes under sudden, unforseen and unreasonable pressure )

The reason your candidate is asking why he should work for your company, is because he IS interested - not because he isn't. You and whoever else is sitting in are first people he meets, and he will judge the calibre of staff according to the evidence in front of him. Please remember that!!

Jaybeee, sorry but complete failure on your part.

To be absolutely honest with you LC, I'm not sure I want to keep trying to make you understand.

quote:

In every single interview I'd had (except where I was a contractor, or the few with agencies), the interviewer tried (usually without the prompt of "Why should I work for this company?") to speak directly about the benefits of working there, the company's plans for growth, the possibly of rapid promotion etc. This is professional interviewing.

quote:

Yes, that happens at the start of the interview, so if he needs to ask "Why should I work for you" he's a poor candidate who didn't listen or isn't interested - and that question will show that crystal clear!

It would BUT no, you're wrong about the timing. Most of the interviews I've done (on either side of the desk) start off with me or my future manager discussing the company's structure, goals, culture etc. Personally I would leave the advocacy of the company towards the end, either I can do it or my colleague will (sometimes the girl from HR would sit in and she'd expound on healthcare/pensions etc). I'll leave it to the candidate as to whether he wishes to discuss the merits of my company midway or finally in the interview timeline. Now if he asks abruptly, in an arrogant tone, then of course I'll pick up on this and note it, but I will NOT admonish him for it immediately - that would be utterly unprofessional. But I've asked and been asked the question many times with a good degree of preparation, ie "Hope you don't mind the question, but as anyone seeking to secure his career, I just wanted to ask"....this would have me nodding my head in agreement and knowing the question to come.

quote:

Any professional interview will talk about the benefits and why you should work for the company, if that was outlined and you still need to ask, it shows that you're a bit slow on the uptake and not the right candidate, or you're an egomaniac who wants to stress how important you are - again, not good for the team.

If he asks "Why should I work here?" AFTER I've discussed the company's merits (and this is a SEPARATE section to where I describe the company in general), then yes I'll be suspicious, but again, I'm not going to be so careless as to voice that suspicion to him. But in every environment I've worked in we need bravehearts, people who are initiators, not drones. People who WANT to forge a reputation for getting the project delivered on time and on spec. If I like the guy enough otherwise and he brings the technical pedigree we need, he gets the offer.

quote:

Have you ever been to an interview for a permanent job where the interviewer didn't talk about the company, the benefits of working for the company, your chances for promotion, etc.? I haven't, and if I need to ask "Why should I work for you" after they have outlined it for me, I show myself in the worst light possible, at the best an arrogant twat, at the worst somebody who's not smart enough to understand what somebody is saying. Simple as that...

I've addressed those points adequately above LC, but before you carry on, can you simply confirm you've understood my replies above?

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RE: Do things happen or do we make them? - 12/15/2010 12:32:07 PM

LadyConstanze

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Apparently you didn't understand mine, nevermind... I would consider any interviewer who doesn't point out why the person should work for the company an absolute failure, even if you end up not employing the person for various reasons, he or she might go to another company and mention yours. In case you work for any company it's your damned job to present your company well.

To be honest I don't think there is much of a difference when you talk about it, I rather do it at the start of the interview (company structure, career prospects and all that) because somebody doing and interview usually is a bit nervous, it helps them to relax and I get to see more of the real person and less of the interview face, because at the end of the day I have to work with the real person and need to know the strength and weaknesses, because if he messes up, I'm responsible...

Sure I need a skillset, that's a given but I also need something that is terribly hard to describe, if somebody is dealing with foreign franchises, ad agencies or occasionally clients, he or she needs people skills, the super wizz kid with the brilliant ideas but no people skills would be the wrong person.

On the other hand, I had absolutely brilliant people applying and they just didn't fit into my team, but luckily our company isn't so fixed on "department A has nothing to do with department B or C" so sometimes somebody who didn't fit into my team was ideal for a position in the marketing team.

Hey this morning I went to bed at 6 am because something went wrong on the other side of the world, sure, technically not my job but me being on standby and on a conference call while they sorted it, being able to throw some ideas in and not erasing the problem but fixing it so that the ad campaign wouldn't be wasted because some doofus forgot to tripple check the website address, I bought the other site with my private credit card because that was handiest and they can mirror it now, not an ideal solution but a good deal cheaper than having ads in magazines and papers and no prospective client can actually see the site due to a spelling mistake (still want to hammer my head against the wall at such a stupid mistake).

It's completely different from IT, though most of the IT guys I've ever worked with are also slightly odd and I get on rather well with nerds and geeks (though they often do lack people skills) I'm living with one of those.

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RE: Do things happen or do we make them? - 12/15/2010 1:29:13 PM

Jaybeee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

Apparently you didn't understand mine, nevermind...

What part of your reply do you think I don't understand?

quote:

I would consider any interviewer who doesn't point out why the person should work for the company an absolute failure, even if you end up not employing the person for various reasons, he or she might go to another company and mention yours. In case you work for any company it's your damned job to present your company well.

I've made that ABUNDANTLY clear in my replies to you. In fact, I stated it twice in my LAST reply. It's YOU who isn't reading and understanding, not me.

quote:

To be honest I don't think there is much of a difference when you talk about it, I rather do it at the start of the interview (company structure, career prospects and all that) because somebody doing and interview usually is a bit nervous, it helps them to relax and I get to see more of the real person and less of the interview face, because at the end of the day I have to work with the real person and need to know the strength and weaknesses, because if he messes up, I'm responsible...

Sure I need a skillset, that's a given but I also need something that is terribly hard to describe, if somebody is dealing with foreign franchises, ad agencies or occasionally clients, he or she needs people skills, the super wizz kid with the brilliant ideas but no people skills would be the wrong person.

On the other hand, I had absolutely brilliant people applying and they just didn't fit into my team, but luckily our company isn't so fixed on "department A has nothing to do with department B or C" so sometimes somebody who didn't fit into my team was ideal for a position in the marketing team.

Hey this morning I went to bed at 6 am because something went wrong on the other side of the world, sure, technically not my job but me being on standby and on a conference call while they sorted it, being able to throw some ideas in and not erasing the problem but fixing it so that the ad campaign wouldn't be wasted because some doofus forgot to tripple check the website address, I bought the other site with my private credit card because that was handiest and they can mirror it now, not an ideal solution but a good deal cheaper than having ads in magazines and papers and no prospective client can actually see the site due to a spelling mistake (still want to hammer my head against the wall at such a stupid mistake).

It's completely different from IT, though most of the IT guys I've ever worked with are also slightly odd and I get on rather well with nerds and geeks (though they often do lack people skills) I'm living with one of those.

Well, I've had dealings with the girlies in Marketing. I'm going to end this by stating that there's a very good, fundamental reason that our salaries (below Director level) are 50% greater.

It's been interesting discussing this with you.

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RE: Do things happen or do we make them? - 12/15/2010 1:45:11 PM

LadyConstanze

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You didn't understand that from the start I took it as a given that an interviewer would point out the benefits of working for the company, I wasn't aware that I have to start at McDonalds hiring students level with you.

Well, see, you wouldn't qualify for a job in my department, somebody who doesn't understand the difference between the Marketing Department and the Public Relations Department is seriously underqualified.

It could very well be that you earn 50% more than I do, though despite being up North where wages are lower due to lower living costs, I somehow doubt it, but if it makes you feel better, go on...

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RE: Do things happen or do we make them? - 12/15/2010 1:54:20 PM

anniezz338

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Both. When we meet forks in the road of life, we decide which way to go. Then things happen along that path.

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RE: Do things happen or do we make them? - 12/15/2010 1:57:57 PM

Jaybeee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

You didn't understand that from the start I took it as a given that an interviewer would point out the benefits of working for the company, I wasn't aware that I have to start at McDonalds hiring students level with you.

You MIStook it as a given. In my reply, which you clearly didn't read, I stated that the timing within the interview of giving the benefits of working for a company, varied.

quote:

Well, see, you wouldn't qualify for a job in my department, somebody who doesn't understand the difference between the Marketing Department and the Public Relations Department is seriously underqualified.

Yeah, I'll be losing sleep that I can't go back to working for somoene else a living. Worse, the thought that I'll never join a "Profession" whose ranks are largely composed of girls polishing their nails, well that's just CRUSHING.

quote:

It could very well be that you earn 50% more than I do, though despite being up North where wages are lower due to lower living costs, I somehow doubt it, but if it makes you feel better, go on...

1) I don't live up north - I live in London;

2) Don't get me started on what I make - you ain't gonna like it.

Also, konnten wir gefaelligstens endlich schluss damit machen?

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RE: Do things happen or do we make them? - 12/15/2010 2:28:56 PM

LadyConstanze

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1. I said I live up North - you got a problem with reading?

2. Why should I have a problem with what you make? I couldn't care less, I know how much I earn and how much my other half earns and we make roughly the same, let's just say he has a 1st in Computer Science from one of the leading universities in this country, security clearance and in the UK is one of the top guys in his field, last job he was headhunted from and changed because part of the deal was a considerable share package. I don't exactly come from a poor background and my living standard is not considerably lower than what I enjoyed back come, and yes, I contribute half of it... Now enjoy what you make, I enjoy what I make, so why shouldn't you...

Was haelt dich davon ab? Zuviel Ego?

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RE: Do things happen or do we make them? - 12/15/2010 2:29:40 PM

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London's more north than me ^_^

I thought the interviewing process you described was spot on, and relevant. Read it a couple times, even, since I'm in a situation where reminders of how business is done well are useful.

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RE: Do things happen or do we make them? - 12/15/2010 3:18:28 PM

Jaybeee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DMFParadox

London's more north than me ^_^

I thought the interviewing process you described was spot on, and relevant. Read it a couple times, even, since I'm in a situation where reminders of how business is done well are useful.

Thanks very much for the compliment mate, and I'm glad to be of help. Business isn't discussed much on these boards, and from the above exchange, I'm starting to see why....

So what racket are you in?

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RE: Do things happen or do we make them? - 12/15/2010 3:26:40 PM

DMFParadox

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Web development on the LAMP stack, app design and graphic design. Also, the occasional beat poetry. ^_^ When it comes to computers, I've done a lot of a few things and a little of everything; I don't think there's a system from post 1985 I wouldn't have a passing amount of similarly relevant experience with.

< Message edited by DMFParadox -- 12/15/2010 3:32:08 PM >

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RE: Do things happen or do we make them? - 12/15/2010 3:34:10 PM

Jaybeee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DMFParadox

Web development on the LAMP stack, app design and graphic design. Also, the occasional beat poetry. ^_^ When it comes to computers, I've done a lot of a few things and a little of everything; I don't think there's a system from post 1985 I wouldn't have passing experience with.

DB OPs here, mostly on the MS side but I've tinkered with Oracle and also did some very lightweight app dev stuff in VB. Cut it all out about a couple of years back when the contract market started petering out and went into trading the Dow, best move I did ever make in my life, though by GOD you need to do it with your head trapped in a block of ice.

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RE: Do things happen or do we make them? - 12/15/2010 3:50:29 PM

DMFParadox

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So I hear. Ever read 'Black Swan?' Best analysis of creating profit from uncertainty I've read in my life.

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RE: Do things happen or do we make them? - 12/15/2010 4:55:27 PM

Jaybeee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DMFParadox

So I hear. Ever read 'Black Swan?' Best analysis of creating profit from uncertainty I've read in my life.

No but the reviews look intriguing. I'm currently reading Cramer's 'Confessions of a Street Addict', oddly titled but very gritty, unflinching look at his rise through the trading world, to say it's uneven would be like saying Mary Whitehouse doesn't subscribe to 'Playgirl'.

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RE: Do things happen or do we make them? - 12/15/2010 5:08:12 PM

LadyConstanze

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Jaybeee, not to bust your bubble, but you are hanging out in clubs where you can slap women and they are so downtrodden by the economy that they have to cut security staff and so you get away with it, you think a glass of Shiraz is a treat for a woman she should be grateful for, from the description of the parking situation outside your house, it screams suburbia, you are permanently obsessing about women not working and living off husbands, or the divorce settlements they get. By all means, that doesn't sound like a successful high flyer to me.

You sure you live in London and not Slough?

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