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RE: Origins Of Real Vs Fake - 12/8/2010 8:51:04 PM   
LadyNTrainer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: twonearvancouver
Rather than referring to those who aren't a good match for them as "not a good match for me", many newbies (and ignorant non-newbies) prefer the term "fake". These people probably just need some education and gentle reminders that nobody is fake - some people just aren't a suitable match for each other.


There really is such a thing as a fake.  Nigerian scammer profiles, for instance.  If someone is out and out lying and trying to con people, it's perfectly reasonable to say, hey, that person is a fake. 

The problem is that the word fake has been pretty thoroughly devalued in our community because it is so frequently misused to refer to someone who just isn't into what you're into, or who doesn't want to do it with you.


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RE: Origins Of Real Vs Fake - 12/8/2010 9:19:55 PM   
pyroaquatic


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From: Pyroaquatica
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I recently upgraded from the floor to a bed.

I am such a fake slave because slaves NEVAR sleep on beds, or sit on couches.

Slave, submissive....

Real Fake or Fake Real, real real fake fake?

It depends on the stance that one takes and the motives of the caller and the called.


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You are what your deep, driving desire is.
As your desire is, so is your will.
As your will is, so is your deed.
As your deed is, so is your destiny.
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RE: Origins Of Real Vs Fake - 12/9/2010 5:34:40 AM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissAsylum

"BDSM community" was meant in the sense of there isn't one.

similar to "what somebody considers real somebody may consider fake".

sorry if there was any confusion.


I think it was Me that created the confusion.  I had used the phrase "online community" which I don't see in the way that many attempt to portray, rather than "BDSM community" which you had said in the original.  Since I tend to be more literal regarding the definition, the former I put less stock in than the latter.  The term "BDSM community" stacks up just fine against the definition according to Webster's if someone is referring to an example such as their local munch group.  Here are a few of those entries (underlining Mine) which is the difference for Me:


The people with common interests living in a particular area; broadly: the area itself.

An interacting population of various kinds of individuals (as a species) in a common location.

A body of persons or nations having a common history or common social, economic, and political interests.

There are more definitions under the word, of course, but those illustrate My point.  The local munch group that meets regularly, where the participants interact with each other socially in the physical world, can absolutely term themselves as the "BDSM community" without contradiction.  That term is completely valid.  This is opposed to the term "online community" which can not.



 


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RE: Origins Of Real Vs Fake - 12/9/2010 6:03:27 AM   
lally2


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i dont know about BDSM per se - you can either do BDSM or you cant.

Ds and Ms are different again, thats all about chemistry and the right fit. 

i dont get bothered by the 'kneel bitch' brigade anymore, i think my profile intimates quite clearly that ive arrived at a place where such an attitude would be met with silence - certainly in the early years i was approached by people who appeared to be under the impression that to wield a whip and bark out orders was all the dominance required of them - dont know if they were fake, i never went there but my suspicion is that they probably were unsuitable for me

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RE: Origins Of Real Vs Fake - 12/9/2010 12:52:07 PM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
...  This is opposed to the term "online community" which can not.
OK, this is me.. the mixed-reality geek quibbling with a minor point. I'm pretty sure I agree with the major thrust of your post but it's not at all clear that virtual environment isn't considered a "location". Frankly, it's pretty easy to talk to my sons and hear how they use the words. In their eyes, online is a place. It is in my eyes also. I'd argue that this is one of those perception is reality things.... if the participants involved think of virtual locations as places, then they treat them as such and so for all practical purposes, they are such.

What is abundantly true, however, is that there are vastly differing social pressures in a cyber "place" as opposed to a physical one. Even if they're both "locations" they're not even remotely the same. Accordingly, I don't see it as unreasonable to refer to an "online community". I just think it's unreasonable to draw too many parallels between an online community and a physical one.


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RE: Origins Of Real Vs Fake - 12/9/2010 6:20:02 PM   
CarpeComa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissAsylum

So I was reading through a thread in the Ask A Mistress forum about real and fake mistresses.

I am wondering what really constitutes a genuine member of the BDSM community and what doesn't..

[snip]

So where does this accusatory nature come from?




What makes someone 'real' is a good question. I'm not of the 'everyone is real' camp as there are too many people engaging in massive fabrication. Most of what makes someone 'real' to me is that they are being honest about themselves to themselves and others.

People get accusatory largely out of frustration. People feel like their time has been wasted and that they have been lied to (regardless of whether or not that's actually the case). Yes, some people invent truths for you, but that doesn't change that they feel that they were lied to when you don't live up to them. For an example of wasted time, I was talking to one girl for six months. Everything was going very well and we were talking about her moving down here once she finished school, which was in December (last year). December rolls around and right over the week of Christmas she simply stops responding. No goodbye, no "you pissed me off with 'x'", nothing. Just a void where she used to be. I happen to know that she's not dead, so you can imagine that I was very much less than thrilled about this development, especially how it was handled. Was she real and got cold feet? Was she misleading me? I'll probably never know. All I do know is that was a very frustrating experience and I doubt it would take more than a couple cases like that to turn most people very bitter and wary of the honesty of other people.

< Message edited by CarpeComa -- 12/9/2010 6:26:51 PM >

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RE: Origins Of Real Vs Fake - 12/10/2010 3:54:25 AM   
MissAsylum


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even with your situation, i can understand how frustration would turn people to be so cynical of others. However, that doesn't help much in the long run. If I was cynical of all men based of the experiences of the once I've dated, I'd probably would be alone for the rest of my life.

I'm under the ideal of not letting a few bad apples spoil the bunch. 

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RE: Origins Of Real Vs Fake - 12/10/2010 4:16:14 AM   
DesFIP


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From: Apple County NY
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I would think you set that situation up by pressuring someone you had never laid eyes on to move to you, sight unseen. If you had approached the situation more realistically, you would not have had such huge and overinvested expectations.

To avoid this in future, CC, I would suggest meeting for coffee, no pressure, no expectations of anything else, fairly early in the conversation. Mention to her that you will be in her area to visit family or vacation and you would love to meet for coffee. Expecting someone to move to be with someone who they might dislike in person or simply have no chemistry with is probably what caused her to flee. It's the equivalent of talking to a client on the phone, enjoying your repartee, and then having him propose marriage, all when you had never met. Does that sound reasonable to you? Nor to most people.

And this I see a great deal of online, people having wildly overinflated expectations who then cast blame about and call others fake. Instead of recognizing their own culpability in what transpired.

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RE: Origins Of Real Vs Fake - 12/10/2010 9:06:20 AM   
MissAsylum


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Des makes an extremely good point. I'd to meet somebody face to face to even consider dating them, let alone move to another state for them. That's a bit fantasy driven with no sense behind it.

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RE: Origins Of Real Vs Fake - 12/10/2010 3:18:53 PM   
CarpeComa


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Joined: 5/12/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I would think you set that situation up by pressuring someone you had never laid eyes on to move to you, sight unseen. If you had approached the situation more realistically, you would not have had such huge and overinvested expectations.

To avoid this in future, CC, I would suggest meeting for coffee, no pressure, no expectations of anything else, fairly early in the conversation. Mention to her that you will be in her area to visit family or vacation and you would love to meet for coffee. Expecting someone to move to be with someone who they might dislike in person or simply have no chemistry with is probably what caused her to flee. It's the equivalent of talking to a client on the phone, enjoying your repartee, and then having him propose marriage, all when you had never met. Does that sound reasonable to you? Nor to most people.

And this I see a great deal of online, people having wildly overinflated expectations who then cast blame about and call others fake. Instead of recognizing their own culpability in what transpired.


You are reading a *lot* that I didn't say into that post. As you were given only the sketchiest details of what happened, what basis do you have to infer that my expectations were "wildly overinflated"? Did I ever say she was 'fake'? Did I say I was flawless or perfect? Keep in mind that all this transpired and evolved steadily over a six month period.

I was being skimpy on the details because I didn't want to obfuscate my point. With the information I had at the time, I don't think my expectations were terribly out of line. I am still going to be light on some specifics because if she was telling the truth, to do otherwise would be a rather gross disregard for her privacy.

Early on, she had said that she was going to move once she graduated. She just hadn't decided where to yet. She had given some very good reasons as to why she didn't want to stay in that city and we both knew that the field she was finishing her education/training in was in fairly steady demand just about anywhere, so she was highly transplantable.

At the time I was marginally employed and not making enough to cover expenses. I could have scraped together the money for the trip, though it seemed rather fiscally irresponsible to do so (I took a similar trip a couple months ago and it was about $1,500). On her part, it would have been a lesser financial strain, but still non-trivial. I had pushed for her to come down for much the same reasons you mentioned. I probably offered to help with the expenses, but at this point I don't remember for sure.

As she was going to move anyway, after a couple of months I made a case for her to move to Dallas from a variety of reasons (not the least of which was that I was there). After talking about the idea for a bit, she asked to move straight in, but I had refused that for several reasons (what if there’s no chemistry, you or I could turn out to be complete psychos, people need time to acclimate to each other, etc). Instead, I found some apartments nearby that were in her price range.

By early December she already had a job and place lined up (or so she said) and we were discussing how she was going to get down here. At this point in time, my financial situation had improved to the point I was no longer running in the red, so among other things we were batting around the idea of me flying up and driving down with her (say what you want, but if you like each other a lot at a distance, you almost certainly can at least tolerate each other’s presence for three days).

During the whole time, if anyone was putting the brakes on ‘progress’ and moderating goals it was me. While the step was indeed a big one, she seemed very enthusiastic about the whole thing, though not to the point that she was glossing over the magnitude of what she was doing. So I was rather surprised when she dropped off the face of the earth. From my perspective it’s like driving a car with a strongly revving engine, pulling up to the starting line, and having the engine suddenly go dead. What made me mad wasn’t that she got cold feet (assuming that’s what happened), but that rather than saying anything she just ran off.

Did I do everything that was reasonably within my ability? No, I did about 90%-95% of it. In retrospect, were there some things that seemed just a bit too fortuitous? Yes, but I had no simple way of verifying them. Were some mistakes made and did I learn from them? Yes, for one; when a person of interest popped back up after a long absence a couple months ago I went and met her in another country, in under a week (however, my financial situation was a lot better than it was in December). If she was being honest with me, were my expectations ‘wildly overinflated’? I think not.

< Message edited by CarpeComa -- 12/10/2010 3:27:00 PM >

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RE: Origins Of Real Vs Fake - 12/10/2010 6:11:59 PM   
xssve


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Joined: 10/10/2009
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quote:

I am wondering what really constitutes a genuine member of the BDSM community and what doesn't..
You have to have a badge, they come in boxes of Cracker Jacks.

Seriously, it's a state of mind, a product of experience, etc., and as such, there are a number of variations since we do not all share the same mind, or the same experiences. Birds of a feather tend to flock together, and accuse other camps of not being the "real thing".

It's essentially the same dynamic you see in religion, politics, sports, etc., it's a tribal/group vehicle thing, just part of human nature to attempt to institutionalize things that are essentially products of shared and/or existential experience, it usually starts as an attempt to communicate some particular insight, to share a particular experience through verbalization or ritualization - then somebody elects themselves messiah, Keeper of the Truth, etc, and viola.

I try to support diversity as much as possible myself, though presumably, what makes it BDSM rather than Vanilla, is mostly the power exchange aspect, explicit, rather than implicit, and the ritualization of that exchange, although it may be only for finite period of time.

Those are the most common factors in terms of calling it a community, off the top of my head, though there might be others - but the whole idea of negotiation of who gets to do what to whom, when, where, and for how long is fairly alien to Vanilla relationship dymnamics, where, either some institutional values are invoked, i.e., Christianity or Islam where male dominance is simply assumed, and often enforced through physical or legal coercion, or else they have to fight it out - often, ultimately, in court.

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RE: Origins Of Real Vs Fake - 12/10/2010 7:27:27 PM   
RedMagic1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CarpeComa
For an example of wasted time, I was talking to one girl for six months.

To give you some perspective, I'm involved with a kinky woman I met online.  We had serious chemistry in the first emails and phone calls.  After about five days from first contact, I said, "I really think we owe it to ourselves to meet in real life, so we know whether this is for real."  We did, and it went great.

On the other hand, I had one situation where a woman asked me to tell her stories about a particular accomplishment of mine.  I did, and she started masturbating to it, but when we met in real life, the chemistry was eh.  I had another woman ask me if she could have phone sex with me, and I got her off pretty fast, but when we met in real life the chemistry was better than eh but less than rockerbox.

Meet quickly.


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Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

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