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RE: How methodical/scientific are you in pleasing your ... - 11/14/2010 8:39:58 AM

Jaybeee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

the "scientific" part, which to me confers an air of complexity, an erudite (isn't it wonderful how closely that word resembles "erotic"??!??!) savvy of pleasing the Master.

Ah. That explains a lot. To me, "scientific" means carefully and deliberately done, with copious notetaking with an eye toward making results reproducible. Your take on the word seems to be that of a nonscience type, who views it all as some sort of mystery. What you consider erudite, I consider mechanical.

Well, I can't disagree that it is mechanical, but the thing is, I do want some sort of mechanism, or rather methodology to the improvement process. Ok, I'm going to give an example, but the one I have in mind is of a sexual nature - is that ok in this subforum?

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RE: How methodical/scientific are you in pleasing your ... - 11/14/2010 8:42:56 AM

NuevaVida

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We don't want complexity; life is hard enough as it is, sometimes. We want to be each others place of respite from the outside demands that life brings.

We simply got to know each other, and through that coarse, I learned what he likes and doesn't like, and how he likes things done. No real structure except for some intimate rituals that maintain our perspective.

There was no training to serve, since serving him came naturally to me, and in a way that pleases him. As for new and fun ways to please him, we both have creative minds and this comes on its own as well, in an unstructured way. It could come frequently or infrequently. Turning the relationship into a business or even scientific structure is not something either of us would want; we prefer the freedom that spontaneity brings.

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RE: How methodical/scientific are you in pleasing your ... - 11/14/2010 5:25:22 PM

WolfyMontgomery

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quote:

You made an fair point, that active thought shouldn't be confined to just once a week. Though it's not what I meant, which was a MINIMUM, I should have been clearer.

While the idea behind it is a pretty good one and would work for some people, I'm sure, there is still the fact that this method, in some ways, forces creativity where - for it to be truly effective - it should be spontaneous. Granted, there are people that work like that, and your slave may be one of them.

You have to consider the person you are working with just as much as what you want though, that manual should be tailored to how she functions as well.

For example, I am an artist, and as such I try to live, eat, and breathe creativity in general. When one puts me in a situation where it is required though by a certain time, at least this much, etc... I will go to the bare minimum and stop, because that is the way I work and process things. And it'll be hell getting to that minimum goal, for the simple fact that my creativity is purely spontaneous, on the spot, out of no where, sometimes I'll be dull for several weeks and then I'll suddenly have a flood of ideas every day for a month sort of thing. And so to schedule it, put requirements on it (like school, for example, or a job) it takes the spontaneity out, and a lot of people will start to run on minimums rather than maximums.
You probably want to keep that in mind with your girl as well, or with any girl that you work with.

I'm sure, if I was different, Master would probably like to use the same sort of techniques you describe - he is a very meticulous, anal retentive (he says it himself lol), planning type of person. But with me, he knows that if he put my creativity on a schedule or as a requirement of any sort, I would work to meet that requirement, and then flop. He loves my spontaneity and randomness, and loves the fact that he can't always plan around me, because it brings out his own spontaneous side which often lies dormant if not put to good use. He loves my random spurts of ingenious ideas and doings, just as much as he loves the downtime of just having a slave do what he wants, when he wants.

So my advice would be, whatever course of action you go by, make sure it's tailored to BOTH of you, rather than just one or the other, otherwise you might be pushing down something that you would have truly loved to see flourish without either of you realizing it.

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RE: How methodical/scientific are you in pleasing your ... - 11/14/2010 8:43:41 PM

leadership527

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee
Or if you are a Master, how meticulously do you convey your needs and desires to your slave(s)?

I have to admit I've struggled with answering this question. This is reply attempt #4 now.

I can't really fit my reality into the kind of scale that you provided, but I can attempt to describe it as I see it. you can decide if it is "scientific" in your mind or not.

At any given time there's lots of small riff-raff type decisions floating down the stream. Do I like the top she's wearing? Do I want makeup on her? Am I hungry? etc. None of these things occupy much of my time or attention. Even if I had given her some command like "always wear lipstick" and she forgot one day, it still wouldn't occupy much time or attention. I'd just say, "Go put on some lipstick mine... try that pale pink one." She'd be embarrassed that she'd forgotten but hey, life goes on. I have to assume that the vast majority of the ways that you envisioned your slave pleasing you would fall into this category for me.

Then there are the bigger ticket items. These are things like her alcohol addiction or her struggles applying herself in her art or getting us moved back to Canada or buying another house or three. These are the things that I have much more careful goals, measurements, and diagnostics on. These are also the places where Carol really makes me pleased and proud both. These are the places that matter to me and yes, they are rigorously monitored... in some cases complete with spreadsheets, graphs, and charts.

Overall, what pleases me about Carol is not that there is some list of 52 pleasing things that she does. I'm pleased by her obedience and more recently, her biddability (yeah, I think I made up that word).

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RE: How methodical/scientific are you in pleasing your ... - 11/15/2010 4:16:53 AM

Jaybeee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WolfyMontgomery

quote:

You made an fair point, that active thought shouldn't be confined to just once a week. Though it's not what I meant, which was a MINIMUM, I should have been clearer.

While the idea behind it is a pretty good one and would work for some people, I'm sure, there is still the fact that this method, in some ways, forces creativity where - for it to be truly effective - it should be spontaneous. Granted, there are people that work like that, and your slave may be one of them.

You have to consider the person you are working with just as much as what you want though, that manual should be tailored to how she functions as well.

For example, I am an artist, and as such I try to live, eat, and breathe creativity in general. When one puts me in a situation where it is required though by a certain time, at least this much, etc... I will go to the bare minimum and stop, because that is the way I work and process things. And it'll be hell getting to that minimum goal, for the simple fact that my creativity is purely spontaneous, on the spot, out of no where, sometimes I'll be dull for several weeks and then I'll suddenly have a flood of ideas every day for a month sort of thing. And so to schedule it, put requirements on it (like school, for example, or a job) it takes the spontaneity out, and a lot of people will start to run on minimums rather than maximums.
You probably want to keep that in mind with your girl as well, or with any girl that you work with.

I'm sure, if I was different, Master would probably like to use the same sort of techniques you describe - he is a very meticulous, anal retentive (he says it himself lol), planning type of person. But with me, he knows that if he put my creativity on a schedule or as a requirement of any sort, I would work to meet that requirement, and then flop. He loves my spontaneity and randomness, and loves the fact that he can't always plan around me, because it brings out his own spontaneous side which often lies dormant if not put to good use. He loves my random spurts of ingenious ideas and doings, just as much as he loves the downtime of just having a slave do what he wants, when he wants.

So my advice would be, whatever course of action you go by, make sure it's tailored to BOTH of you, rather than just one or the other, otherwise you might be pushing down something that you would have truly loved to see flourish without either of you realizing it.

Thank you both for the very well considered and well written post. Your Master is a lucky man to have a slave both as subservient AND intelligent as you, two characteristics that, despite my time on CM, a part of me still assumes are mutually exclusive, and that still never fail to surprise me when I find them co-existing in the same person.

I suppose a looser regime may be in order...perhaps to ask her to think on ways to please me for 10 mins a day, but to remove the weekly target and just have her present any suggestions to me ad-hoc.

I completely agree with you about creativity, I'm something of an amateur hack in my ever decreasing spare time, and recently I've been hit with the opposite problem, like the opposite to Writer's Block. I've got the germ of a great idea for an autobiography, it keeps bugging me at odd times to start writing it out, ie when I'm sitting at a red light and my mind drifts away unbidden into steps in implementing it. I think there's somettruth to that theory that it's the story that uses the Writer to escape, not the Writer that crafts it.

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RE: How methodical/scientific are you in pleasing your ... - 11/15/2010 4:45:08 AM

AquaticSub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

the "scientific" part, which to me confers an air of complexity, an erudite (isn't it wonderful how closely that word resembles "erotic"??!??!) savvy of pleasing the Master.

Ah. That explains a lot. To me, "scientific" means carefully and deliberately done, with copious notetaking with an eye toward making results reproducible. Your take on the word seems to be that of a nonscience type, who views it all as some sort of mystery. What you consider erudite, I consider mechanical.

What he said.

I regard science as something with a great deal of tests, sterile environments to reduce and/or eliminate outside contaminants to the experiments, double blind studies, and studies with extremely calculated wording to avoid any prejudice or prompting people to give specific answers. Anything less just doesn't 'count' to me.

Quite frankly, that is not something I want in a relationship. Should he being trying to figure me out? Sure, just as I'm trying to figure him out. But we are extremely biased towards each other, we are not in any way impartial researchers. And that is just how we want it.

So I guess we are not scientific in the slightest and we're quite happy that way.

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RE: How methodical/scientific are you in pleasing your ... - 11/15/2010 5:14:42 AM

CaringandReal

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee
How methodical/scientific are you in pleasing your Master?

This is a very odd question, but an interesting one. I don't have too much to say, beyond that. I've used only a small part of the scientific method: observation.

I observed very closely, noting preferences, moods, attitudes, non-verbal cues. I noticed all the small details and considered their significance, or whether they had significance. This level of high attention is pretty normal for a slave: the more control somebody else has over your life and happiness, the more important it becomes to know and understand them as much as is humanly possible. I have a curious streak, so observing very closely is second habit, and also quite enjoyable for me. My former master was not a tyrant, so I had the luxury of making this a game. I imagine for many historical slaves it was nothing of the sort: the keenness of their observational skills probably significantly affected their lifespans.

But close observation and remembering essential details is where the science ended for me. After that it was all winging it (inspiration?) along with the potential for big screw-ups that almost random-seeming guessing brings. If I had continued with the scientific method, I would have next developed a theory (example: based upon what I have observed of my master, he would enjoy Y far more if I did X), and varied one small, limited aspect of my behavior, responses, or attitudes, and then observed if it affected him positively, negatively, or seemed neutral. Shudder! This sounds so cold--and borderline manipulative--and flawed, because human relationships are very gestaltish, and paying exceeding close attention to an individual tree means you don't see, hear, or even smell the wolf creeping up on you in the bushes behind your back. Anyway, cold experimentation of this sort is definitely not my style. What I did instead was wait for a while, let my very smart (a lot smarter than the waking me, alas) unconscious integrate the data, and then, rather than vary one tiny thing, almost randomly and via unconscious urgings vary a number of things all at the same time, kind of the way a good cook will take a printed recipe and change quantities of ingrediets, or switch out some items for others, and create a very different-tasting but delicious dish. (If you wanted to describe this technique negatively, I suppose you could liken it to a painter with a blindfold on. :/ ) Frequently this worked (he was more pleased with me); sometimes it didn't or had neutral effects.

Of course, it's a lot simpler just to ask your master/mistress when you want to know something about their preferences or tastes, and for most things (certainly all essential things), I did exactly that. But in each person there's a lot of self-information that's usually not accessible to their conscious minds, and that direct questions cannot address, as the person themselves doesn't know. I think I picked up on many such things during the normal process of observation and then responded to this with my own behavioral concoctions. More often than not, he was surprised and pleased by this although there was the occasional spectacular fail (to this day, some of these still make me cringe.)

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RE: How methodical/scientific are you in pleasing your ... - 11/15/2010 6:15:23 AM

xssve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

The new thing to amuse him/titillate him/etc a week only works when you're brand new. After a few months you will have so many rules and things that must be done that you won't be able to get anything accomplished. It says a great deal about the OP that he's so focused on the brand new beginning of a relationship and does not look forward to having a long term, mutually satisfying one.

I'm curious if he's ever actually had a relationship that lasted over six months and if so, how this worked out for real. Because by demanding new and different, he's set it up that he can't look forward to having any tried and true favorites. And that's just sad.

I'm actually in a relationship of 5 years that's open at my end. She will ask me daily, "What can I do for you, my love?", and most times I am content with replying, "I'm fine" or asking her to do something that will benefit her directly, and thus me indirectly. I am her Master, her boss - I say, she complies. I tell her to jump out of the window, she will ask, "What floor?".

But you see, the imagination always comes from me; it seems to be me who is bringing the ideas on how she should please me, not her. And honestly, I do worry about overtaxing her as she doesn't handle failure very well. Even if I preceded the exercise with, "I'm only likely to accept 20% of your suggestions on a GOOD month", or emphasised the better parts of her failed suggestions, she won't return to the task with renewed vigour, but rather become a little depressed

The purpose of this thread is so I can get an idea of how my fellow Masters manage their subs/slaves, and perhaps I can build my own "Guide to Pleasing Jaybeee" manual for her. It just feels like so far, I've lacked any direction in my leadership of her, and want a provide her a structure that she can be confident of being able to build upon.

That clarifies things somewhat, i.e., you are trying to get a better handle on her personality perhaps.

I think in terms of science, what C&R said above is right, science begins and ends with observation, it's just that in this case, it the internal science of your dyad, and you can be forgiven for not taking notes, other than mental.

The whole reason I decided to let my dom out of the closet was so that I could do whatever the fuck I want, whenever the fuck I want, within the bonds of reality, but to this end, I'm less interested in adapting to her needs, i.e., I need someone who is ok with that - it sounds cold, but she's the one who desires submission, no? And contrary to what some might be thinking, it's not really about sex per se, I don't generally seem to have a lot of conflicts in that area, for me it's more a matter of personal space: I'm a creative person, I need time to myself, anyone that requires constant social interaction is going to have a tough time living with me, and I don't want to live with a miserable person, it's anything but personal - but as some have pointed out, it's a chaos thing, I can't draw up a schedule or anything, you have to figure it out.

Point here, is the science part can only tell you whether it will work or not, and if not, who has to do the changing.

How you go about that, of course, is not so simple, but again, science tells us that we tend to see things more clearly when we are in a depressed state, i.e., the rose colored glasses come off, and it can be a valuable state of mind though at a cost - by the same token, denial can be healthy too, it's an imperfect world, and life is too short to dwell interminably on it's various imperfections - so optimism and pessimism being equally delusional, optimism is healthier, but the occasional bout of depression can allow you to gain a different perspective on a given problem.

Anyway, I dunno if any of this helps. I guess I sense you're trying to avoid depressing her - sounds like an approval whore, which is fine, some people just get dysfunctional when depressed, but I can only suggest studying basic management techniques, such as "sandwiching" critiques, i.e., inserting the negative between two positives, etc., i.e., in this instance I think who needs to change might be you, specifically, your communication style, if your current approach is not getting results.

< Message edited by xssve -- 11/15/2010 6:18:26 AM >

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RE: How methodical/scientific are you in pleasing your ... - 11/15/2010 8:45:45 AM

DesFIP

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So you want her to be responsible for thinking up new ways to please you, because you don't know what you want done differently.

If you don't want her to feel badly if she fails you, then you don't want her emotionally invested in the relationship.

There is no way you can have it both ways, that she be devastated if you are actively criticizing her but not devastated if she is the one who thought it up. You want to be the leader, so lead. You can't just lead on those days that you feel like it, but expect her to lead whenever you don't. Especially if you don't even tell her that this is a day when you aren't feeling dominant and therefore need her to switch. Again you want it both ways and that's not possible.

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RE: How methodical/scientific are you in pleasing your ... - 11/15/2010 8:16:00 PM

WolfyMontgomery

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quote:

I suppose a looser regime may be in order...perhaps to ask her to think on ways to please me for 10 mins a day, but to remove the weekly target and just have her present any suggestions to me ad-hoc.

That might work. Though you may also think about the element of surprise as well (which may or may not include suggestions). For example, a surprise of breakfast in bed with your favorite foods is very giving and subservient, but at the same time, if she had to clear it with you upon thinking of it, it wouldn't be that much of a surprise now would it? ;)

And DesFIP, I think he might be thinking more along the lines of just 'pleasing' in general, rather than leaving it up to her to decide new protocols or rituals that she thinks would be good. I agree that those are pretty much up to the Dom/Master, but at the same time, if he wants her to be active in her service and creative in what she does, then her waiting for him to say "make me breakfast in the morning" rather than just surprising him with it would never happen.

I think he's more wanting ways to push her into being more proactive than wanting her to switch and take the lead.

A good slave will sit and wait for her Master to tell her to massage his feet while he's sitting around watching TV, a proactive slave is the one who goes and kneels at his feet before he says and asks, "Would you like me to massage your feet, Master?"

He wants to see the latter more often, I believe. And wants to encourage her to be more proactive without fear of being hurt if he ever says "no" because he happens to not feel like receiving that service at that time. And because she is more of the retroactive and responsive rather than proactive, he's trying to find a way to make her become proactive in a retroactive way by requiring her to think about things and take action on her own etc.

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RE: How methodical/scientific are you in pleasing your ... - 11/16/2010 6:29:53 AM

xssve

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Sounds like another management technique, hard to convey in terms of how to do it, but planting a suggestion and letting the other person think it was their idea - it's done in politics all the time, an astroturfing technique, usually through a sort of indirect suggestion, i.e., instead of being directed at the person, it's sort of directed "out there" in the room, floating freely, where people naturally pick up on it and repeat it, i.e., like something you overheard - once internalized, these sorts of suggestions are often difficult to distinguish from your own thought processes.

Another way is to repeat it like it's something you've overheard somewhere, the old "everybody is saying" (thinking, doing, etc.) thing, false consensus.

In politics, it is considered a propaganda technique, but it can be useful in situations where someone, a boss for instance resists being told what to do, if something really needs to be done, you've gotta get them to think it was their idea, otherwise, they'll do something different just to demonstrate the fact that they're "in charge", etc., which can lead to a lot of bad business decisions.

It's a fairly subtle technique, and again, hard to tell somebody exactly how to do it, and there is usually lead time involved, i.e., time enough for the suggestion to sink in, and for the target to forget where they heard it.

Interestingly, I have the opposite problem, my sub cannot stand praise, it makes her squirm, and while I enjoy watching her squirm, I have to follow up with a negative, lol.

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RE: How methodical/scientific are you in pleasing your ... - 11/16/2010 10:23:36 AM

whiteslavebitch

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I'm not methodical or scientific in pleasing my master at all. It's very simple, he says, I do. I remember (or at least try to) his preferences in everything and consistently do things the way he prefers.

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