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Protocol/structure question about a D/D/s triad - 11/12/2010 5:24:05 AM   
ejmichaels


Posts: 51
Joined: 11/11/2010
Status: offline 		I have question about protocol and structure.  I realize I could be stepping into a potential mess here, so some disclaimers first.
I am not new to BDSM (25 years experience).  I know there are different answers, not one correct answer.  I’m interested in getting some opinions and/or places to read more. I searched for previous posts on this topic and did not find anything that directly addressed this.

This is for a story I’m writing. Please do not tell me to do my own research - that is what I'm doing here. Sorry, had to say that. I’ve been here only two days and I’ve seen that answer come up.

So here's the issue:  I’m writing a novel based, in part, on my own experiences with D/s relationships and there is a situation I haven’t encountered in real life. The short version:  does the sub initiate the request for a collar or to “belong” to someone? I  assume it can be done both ways, but I’m trying to be realistic in terms of the most commonly followed protocol.  (A related question is about how he would ask.)  Important details: the collared sub belongs to half of a couple and they are considering extending this to the other partner,  his life partner (a Beta Dom, of sorts- sorry about the term, it’s convenient here) who currently plays with the sub, but does not have a formal arrangement.  The alpha Dom went of town and “loaned” the sub to his partner for a few days. It worked out very well and now they think it’s time to create the second bond. Who would initiate this? My draft has the sub asking. He would have to know it was okay with his Dom before asking, of course. He probably asked him already.  But if he did, the alpha Dom could have told beta Dom of his interest – or would he wait and let the sub make the move?  They’re all men, in case that matters.
Thank you.
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RE: Protocol/structure question about a D/D/s triad - 11/12/2010 6:10:24 AM   
BonesFromAsh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ejmichaels


This is for a story I’m writing. Please do not tell me to do my own research - that is what I'm doing here. Sorry, had to say that. I’ve been here only two days and I’ve seen that answer come up.



You've seen that answer for a reason. While you may see this post as part of your "research", the people who would respond see this as a way of life, generally. Most people feel iffy about being viewed as lab rats.

I typed in "bdsm protocols" into google and got 233,000 results....blogs, websites, book excerpts and various other sources. Yes, mucking through 233,000 listings will be tedious to say the least, but that's part of doing research.

I'm aware of more than a few writers who post on these boards, rarely if ever have any of them come here to blatantly ask such a question. Instead, they get to know and be known on the forums which, I'm sure, might eventually lead to information they can use in some way.

Good luck with your book welcome to the forums.

ETA....here's something to get you going... http://www.amazon.com/Protocol-Handbook-Leather-Slave-Practice/dp/1887895159

< Message edited by BonesFromAsh -- 11/12/2010 6:31:43 AM >

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RE: Protocol/structure question about a D/D/s triad - 11/12/2010 6:31:34 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		It does seem a bit odd to Me that someone with 25 years of experience wouldn't know the answer to your question from your own point of view.  Simply put, if you were the Dom in the book you were writing, how would you handle it?

The bottom line on this is that it is open to interpretation on how the parties handle matters.  Using your terms, you have an Alpha Dom, a Beta Dom, and a submissive who I assume is already collared to the first Dom.  It was the Alpha Dom that already had to give his permission for the Beta Dom and the sub to be interacting in the first place.  The sub already belongs to him, so in that position, the sub wouldn't be asking for another collar to begin with.  The sub is already owned to whatever degree you have outlined in your story. 

With that in mind, the second Dom should be asking the first Dom for any interaction that is happening between him and the submissive anyway.  (If you want the discussion based on protocol, I'm a leather person and that's what leather protocol dictates.)  That means that the second Dom would be asking the first Dom what is acceptable in the first Dom's authority over the sub.  The first Dom is the one with the decision power, since he already owns the sub anyway.  The sub can't ask for the collar itself if he's already wearing one.  This says to Me that the scenario that actually works for your premise is for the second Dom to be the one offering the collar once permission has been obtained from the first Dom to do so.


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RE: Protocol/structure question about a D/D/s triad - 11/12/2010 6:33:05 AM   
ejmichaels


Posts: 51
Joined: 11/11/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BonesFromAsh

You've seen that answer for a reason. While you may see this post as part of your "research", the people who would respond see this as a way of life, generally. Most people feel iffy about being viewed as lab rats.


Thank you for taking the time to answer and for the suggestions. I have read quite a few books and articles on protocols, including parts of the one you linked. They generally don't cover this particular matter.

I wonder if I had not said the question was for a book the answer would have been different.

My novel is a celebration of my chosen lifestyle and interests. I have lived a D/s lifestyle for 25 years and I have never felt like a lab rat when asked to share my knowledge. I have given numerous presentations to share what I have learned. I cannot imagine telling someone to go to the library or Internet when they ask me questions.   Since I'm new here, I can understand why I cannot ask the same question here that I would ask my friends.

I will also add that questions like mine are common and acceptable among writers. Writing forums have entire sections devoted to this sort of thing. I am often the one providing answers about BDSM.



< Message edited by ejmichaels -- 11/12/2010 6:34:09 AM >

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RE: Protocol/structure question about a D/D/s triad - 11/12/2010 6:43:21 AM   
BonesFromAsh


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ejmichaels


I wonder if I had not said the question was for a book the answer would have been different.



Honestly, I have to wonder that very same thing. My response wasn't meant in a negative light...I'm only on my first cup of coffee

I'm sure some of those same writers I mentioned have come to these boards with questions posed as general queries and not specific to a project they're working on.

Personally, your original post, asked as simply a question of protocols alone, would be damn interesting...at least for me.

BTW...there is a section specifically for writing here...The Creative Writing forum.

< Message edited by BonesFromAsh -- 11/12/2010 6:44:27 AM >

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RE: Protocol/structure question about a D/D/s triad - 11/12/2010 6:59:48 AM   
poise


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quote:

Important details: the collared sub belongs to half of a couple and they are considering extending this to the other partner,  his life partner (a Beta Dom, of sorts- sorry about the term, it’s convenient here) who currently plays with the sub, but does not have a formal arrangement.  The alpha Dom went of town and “loaned” the sub to his partner for a few days. It worked out very well and now they think it’s time to create the second bond. Who would initiate this? My draft has the sub asking. He would have to know it was okay with his Dom before asking, of course. He probably asked him already.  But if he did, the alpha Dom could have told beta Dom of his interest – or would he wait and let the sub make the move?

Protocol is an agreed upon interaction within a relationship, regardless of the number of people
involved in the relationship. Which means, you can write this scenario in any fashion you wish and
it would still be believable. There is no right or wrong with how they run their household/relationship.
I like the idea of the 2 doms initiating it though....kind of like a co-collaring ceremony.

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RE: Protocol/structure question about a D/D/s triad - 11/12/2010 7:12:01 AM   
ejmichaels


Posts: 51
Joined: 11/11/2010
Status: offline 		Thanks, everyone!  (Sorry about getting a bit defensive.) I have been in several three-way relationships, but I have had very little formal structure in the D/s aspects.  In this story, the sub was collared about 8 months prior to the group considering joint "ownership".  And the two Doms switch with each other sometimes, although not to the same degree. I'm much more familiar with that part.

I'll be very interested in any other replies.

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RE: Protocol/structure question about a D/D/s triad - 11/12/2010 7:52:14 AM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ejmichaels

The short version:  does the sub initiate the request for a collar or to “belong” to someone? I  assume it can be done both ways, but I’m trying to be realistic in terms of the most commonly followed protocol.

Short answer:  there is no "commonly followed protocol".  Most people make things up as they go along.

Write it however it feels best to you, based on your 25 years of experience.

~stef


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RE: Protocol/structure question about a D/D/s triad - 11/12/2010 7:54:23 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


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quote:

does the sub initiate the request for a collar or to “belong” to someone? I assume it can be done both ways, but I’m trying to be realistic in terms of the most commonly followed protocol.


As I'm sure you're already aware, there is no "universal" protocol for this kind of thing.

Unlike some of the earlier situations noted above where the dominant party initiates such arrangements, in our household, most servant's collars are held by the House, and all of the dominant members are included as "Keepers" on those collars. However, sometimes, two individuals WITHIN the household wish to make a more personal commitment to one another. For these kinds of long-term individual collars, requests are handled by the initiation of the yielding partner. In our situation, the yielding partner must make formal request 3 times. The first time, the request is made to the individual to whom xhe wishes to be bound.Provided that the Keeper agrees that xhe wishes to accept responsibility for primary authority over that servant, a 2nd request is made by the servant, with the new Keeper present, to the HoH for the sub-household. This assures that the newly committed dynamic will not be overly disruptive to the sub-household's function. Provided that the HoH gives approval, the 3rd request is made by the servant, with the support of hir dedicated Keeper, and the sub-household's HoH, to the House Council.

Admittedly, ours is a system that has developed due to having a widely spread House with many sub-households, and often multiple Keepers and servants in the same household. Smaller or more localized situations wouldn't need NEARLY so much pomp and circumstance... but the point, I think, is that, in the majority of cases, the servant is the one who initiates the request/plea for that more restrictive style of management in our household -- it requires an extra layer of attention, as every request for that servant is then run through the Primary Keeper -first-, and then through the rest of the protocol chain... so we only rarely have anyone interested in going in this direction.

Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 11/12/2010 8:43:38 AM >

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RE: Protocol/structure question about a D/D/s triad - 11/12/2010 8:36:46 AM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ejmichaels
I'll be very interested in any other replies.
Probably not very helpful to you, but Carol and I are protocol-lite. The only protocol is that she obeys. If I were adding in another dom, it'd be someone of similar inclination.

Insofar as "who initiates"... publicly it'd be me. Internally, there'd be conversation and it would be "us" who initiated (at least in the situation you described). The only reason it would be me publicly is just that Carol is the introvert, I'm the extrovert. As above, I'd have no thought in my head about "protocol" and no interest or patience with anyone who did have such thoughts.


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RE: Protocol/structure question about a D/D/s triad - 11/12/2010 10:29:24 AM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		for us, neither. I saw a bracelet i liked, he bought it, i put it on and it just became my collar. See? No common protocol.

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RE: Protocol/structure question about a D/D/s triad - 11/12/2010 12:24:37 PM   
January


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quote:

My novel is a celebration of my chosen lifestyle and interests.


Okay. If your 25 years experience in D/s involved little protocol, why would you write about something alien to your experience?

January

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RE: Protocol/structure question about a D/D/s triad - 11/12/2010 1:53:03 PM   
ejmichaels


Posts: 51
Joined: 11/11/2010
Status: offline 		January - that's a very good question. Like any novel, it isn't an exact reproduction of my life. Only one chapter is very similar to actual events. The rest is based on elements from life. My formal structures evolved a little differently, but my friends and colleagues have had various amounts of structure. I don't happen to have details on this particular situation (especially the co-ownership context).  I wasn't asking for high protocol or anything else "alien", just an idea of some ways people handle this sort of situation, based on styles that are somewhat typical (rather than something very unique to a particular household or family).

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RE: Protocol/structure question about a D/D/s triad - 11/12/2010 2:39:08 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		There is no defined way to do anything. Are these leather people, big on protocols and New Guard? Is it just a couple where the guy has the right to have a sub because his partner isn't into that? Did the sub fall wildly in love with the Beta? Anyone of the three could start the discussion and it would all be right. However if I were the Beta, I would expect my partner to consider my feelings first and start talking to me about it before bringing it up to the sub. Having someone paint your toenails over a weekend is a lot different then making a poly family. And if the alpha got sent to Afghanistan for a year, I can't imagine the sub willing to stay 'loaned' to someone he/she had no pre-existing feelings for. If it was just a week or two, again too short to develop those feelings.

Turning an on the side arrangement into a poly family would probably require a good six months of everyone being around each other for it to work. If not longer.


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RE: Protocol/structure question about a D/D/s triad - 11/12/2010 3:45:48 PM   
ejmichaels


Posts: 51
Joined: 11/11/2010
Status: offline 		Great questions, thanks. I wasn't sure if I should have gone into all of that. All three are equally into the lifestyle. I hesitate to put a label on it, but I'd say it's more on the lower protocol, more casual end of the continuum. I'm not well-versed in the more formal matters, so I'm not writing it with more of that.  Dom1 and 2 have lived together as a couple for about 7 years. They switch a little with each other (casually) and have outside interactions with subs, at clubs, parties, etc. Dom1 and the sub have been together about 9 months. At this point the sub visits several times a week and likes submitting to Dom2. Dom1 would like a co-owner arrangement but hasn't yet done anything about it except that one weekend. I'm getting the idea that it probably makes the most sense for him to set things in motion. I was concerned that having the sub make the request would seem inappropriate.

In my mind, changing from belonging to one Dom to two isn't necessarily making a poly family, but it's heading in that direction, to some extent. My understanding is that leather and poly households are different. I think I'm creating a hybrid of sorts.  The sub would not be the primary partner of either Dom, at least not in this book. Plus there is a large age difference - the sub, at 23, is half his Dom's age, and that, statistically, doesn't work well in the long term.

I'll post an excerpt from my book (in the fiction section) so you can see my guys in action. It's a reworked version of two chapters and was created as a contest entry on a romance website. I have another 20 chapters that won't be posted, but can be emailed privately.

All of the replies are very helpful to me personally, not just for the book. Thanks again.

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RE: Protocol/structure question about a D/D/s triad - 11/12/2010 5:08:43 PM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
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Status: offline 		Hello EJ -
A pleasure to see you here.  Excellent question.  I, too, am writing a book.  The process alone is so much bigger than I'd anticipated. I have learned more minutiae about things in order to write realistically that I sometimes think my head is going to pop off.  It reminds me of The Far Side cartoon - May I please be excused, Teacher?  My brain is full!

For protocol, all I can offer are questions:

How have they handled other questions in the past about big responsibility items - car, house, job change, etc.?
How well do they get along?
Does the sub have an introverted personality?  Is he anxious?  What is his history?
If he's an anxious person, I would think the anxiety wouldn't allow him to wait.  If he's a really laid back guy, I'd think that he would be comfortable with waiting to see what they want to do... Same for the other folks in your triad - how do their personalities lead their behavior?  It's not really different in this instance either (or at least that's how I think).

I know you asked about the protocol thing, and perhaps I answered fromt a viewpoint you weren't interested in - the writer's - and if it was way out in left field, feel free to disregard what I've said.  No offense would be taken.

best, and do stay around.  It's a pleasure to read your posts.
sunshine

< Message edited by sunshinemiss -- 11/12/2010 5:29:09 PM >

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RE: Protocol/structure question about a D/D/s triad - 11/12/2010 5:47:26 PM   
ejmichaels


Posts: 51
Joined: 11/11/2010
Status: offline 		Sunshinemiss, thanks!  I appreciate the reminder to focus on the personalities. I'm interested in all aspects. People tell me the characters are well-developed, so I should let them be themselves. It would be within the sub's character to say what he wants, but he is very easygoing. There's another scene in which he accidentally steps out of line with Dom2 on this matter and gets in trouble. The two Doms would normally discuss everything as partners and have talked about this. As currently written, they want the sub to express his interest independently.

I tried pasting the text of an excerpt in the fiction section, but it ate my line breaks. I'm not entering them by hand, so I posted the link for now.

With 100K words to edit, no NaNo for me. I'm cheering friends on. Best wishes with yours, Sunshinemiss.

< Message edited by ejmichaels -- 11/12/2010 6:01:43 PM >

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RE: Protocol/structure question about a D/D/s triad - 11/12/2010 6:18:37 PM   
MaamJay


Posts: 2101
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Status: offline 		Hi ej,

I have observed a very similar situation when I lived in Perth with some wonderful gay bdsm guys there. The 2 older guys live with each other, both can Top, but one is more Toppy than the other. They both play with others at parties. One younger guy took both of their fancies and after a period of time he moved in. Their way around it was that the sub called the alpha Top BOSS and the beta Top SIR, and the sub had a collar with PUPPY on it. The way it happened to the best of My knowledge was that the 2 Tops were in regular conversation, both knew that they both liked puppy, but it was only when puppy formally asked to be owned by them that the whole thing was settled and puppy got collared. Unfortunately it didn't work out in the long run as puppy had a lot of emotional baggage.

I think it's very logical that the 2 Tops, if they are a couple, would simply be in conversation about it, or if they are really into Leather, then Lady Pact gave you the correct protocol to follow.

To give a hetero example, Master is my Dominant and Head of Household. However I have both sub and Domme sides. Any subs I want to meet and play with, I run the idea past Master and He gives the OK. He meets them and assures Himself of their suitability for a play session. When (thinking positively!) I find what I consider to be a potential sub to join us, that would be the subject of considerable conversation between Master and I before I give indication to the sub that we are viewing him in that light, although every sub knows upfront that is what I am ultimately seeking. There would be more conversation between the sub and I concerning logistics, and ultimately a 3-way chat to make sure everyone is on the same page. Then there would trial periods of living together, during which time the sub would wear some token showing our mutual commitment to trying to make this work, and only after some extended time, would a final collar be offered. When Master and i got together, it was for an initial trial period (it was a poly situation at the time with My now ex-hubby as sub, but he was away for the first 4 months overseas). After he had been back a month and things at that time were OK, Master and i got matching silver rings to wear as our token of mutual consideration. It was a total of 2 years of living together before He collared me! We don't rush these things, and any sub we interact with knows it's not going to be an instant collar.

Hopefully some of that helps!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

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RE: Protocol/structure question about a D/D/s triad - 11/13/2010 1:35:55 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
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Status: offline 		*HIJACK*

Sunshinemiss are you doing NaNoWriMo this year???

Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 11/13/2010 1:38:15 AM >

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RE: Protocol/structure question about a D/D/s triad - 11/13/2010 2:56:37 AM   
ejmichaels


Posts: 51
Joined: 11/11/2010
Status: offline 		Ooh, how exciting! I've never been hijacked before.

Sunshinemiss has a whole thread about NaNo.

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