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RE: Soooooooooooooo.. new toy for each girl or boy? - 11/3/2010 5:25:03 PM   
Madame4a


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From: Washington, DC area
Status: offline 		You can't really sterilize anything unless you're in the hospital or have that type of equipement in your home. That said, many of the items discussed wouldn't stand up to the process. As mentioned above, porous items are impossible to actually get that clean...

I have some tried and true toys that I won't get rid of, that said, if I play with someone outside of my primary relationship, I expect them to have a few of their own toys...

frankly, the fact that you really can't clean things that well makes a case for playing with people you know well.. that's my normal mode of operation....

if you're going to break skin, or have your skin broken.. make sure the item used on you is new or when used, its discarded later... some things hang on forever...

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RE: Soooooooooooooo.. new toy for each girl or boy? - 11/3/2010 9:16:33 PM   
strangedesire


Posts: 360
Joined: 12/23/2008
Status: offline 		How many male tops go out and get a new penis for every relationship? How many tops (of any gender) dunk their hands in boiling water before touching a partner's genitalia for the first time? For that matter, how many people use gloves for hand-to-genital contact during casual play?

My insertables get covered with condoms any time they go inside anyone. My toys don't get blood or bodily fluids on them - or if they do, they won't be used in a situation where they could come into contact with someone else's mucus membranes. I use protection during sex, and demand that my partners do the same.

Seriously, though? My medical grade silicone dildos don't lose spiritual purity because they've been in someone else's body. Ten minutes in boiling water will kill pretty much anything that might live on them, even if I chose to use them without condoms. (I usually don't.) Stainless steel nipple clamps are not going to transmit strange nipple STIs from person to person unless somebody is oozing something weird. Leather cuffs may be symbolic when worn, but I don't see them as a symbol of a relationship, and I'm not going to throw them out at the end of one so I can have the privilege of redoing my dungeon from scratch when I meet someone new.

And you know what? If I'm chopping vegetables and nick myself with a knife, I'll wash it off and throw it in the dishwasher and forget about it. A few weeks later, I might use it to prepare food for guests. I assume that other people do the same, and it probably happens at restaurants as well. Am I an evil bad host for not replacing my knife immediately? Have I probably contracted AIDS from a cook at Denny's?


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RE: Soooooooooooooo.. new toy for each girl or boy? - 11/4/2010 3:49:44 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline 		HIV doesn't live outside the body for more than a few hours and that's only in perfect conditions (such as in a needle that's kept at the right temperature). HEP virus poses more of a problem because the HEP virus likes moist warm environments which can not be destroyed by most disinfectants. Giving a flogger a wipe over after use is probably one of the most dangerous things you can do if your going to use it again within the week on someone else's skin. A recently used, damp flogger says VIRUS all over it.
The bigger danger with floggers and canes in a club is the aerosol effect. Dom flogs/canes sub until the skin is broken and whirls the flogger/cane through the air. Invisible particles of fresh blood can be dispersed for some distance by the swinging implement. This isn't dangerous unless you have an someone close by with an open wound.
Spraying a tool or a piece of furniture with disinfectant can be equally dangerous because, just like a hose, you get splash back and yet time and time again I see spray canisters used in clubs to clean bloody furniture.

Obviously we can't put leather toys in a autoclave but we can use universal precautions on other things.
Consider all players potentially infectious
Assume all toys are contaminated with blood borne pathogens
Fabric should be soaked in Lysol for 60 minutes before laundered.
Any tool that can't be autoclaved should be cleaned with a 10% bleach solution before rinsing well and being thoroughly dried (don't use within the next 10 days)

I would personally never spend a great deal of money on some wonderful flogger because it may just need throwing away and if its cleaned correctly (when used on more than one person) its shelf life isn't going to be all that long. I would be highly suspicious of a stray Dom with a beautiful flogger.



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RE: Soooooooooooooo.. new toy for each girl or boy? - 11/4/2010 4:16:05 AM   
DesFIP


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From: Apple County NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12
Of course, when i came to the US in the early '80's i thought Americans were germ-phobic because the straws were wrapped in paper.

You can get carried away with anything - and even with cleanliness.


Perhaps. All I can tell you is that living in a gay community during the AIDS crisis, and going to funeral after funeral has left its mark on me. I lost so many good friends that I will never be casual about disease transmission.


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RE: Soooooooooooooo.. new toy for each girl or boy? - 11/4/2010 7:29:28 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
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Status: offline 		Smallpox which can live for up to 2 ½ years outside the human body and TB can live for around 8 months outside the human body. They say, the longer a virus can survive without a host, the more deadly it is and if you look at smallpox and tuberculosis, it doesn’t take much working out to know that’s true (except in the case of HIV and the HEP virus) but fortunately both SP & TB have been virtually eradicated from the western world.
The space shuttle proved that a certain flu virus could survive without a host for five years but that was in near perfect conditions and so its hardly relevant here.

Silicone isn’t sterilized when boiled because boiling doesn’t kill all life forms and that’s why the medical profession don’t re-use medical grade silicone vaginally or anally.
I understand the complexities of how a virus works and I have to say that I would rather take a used butt plug that was previously used on another with protection on it before being thoroughly boiled, than stand close to someone taking a bloody flogging or even a hard flogging for that matter. I wouldn’t dream of using or taking a flogger that I didn’t know the history of either.
I don’t worry for a moment about HIV but I do worry about Hepatitis. If I worry about hepatitis and take all the necessary precautions to protect myself and others, then I have also protected myself from HIV without so much as a second thought.


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RE: Soooooooooooooo.. new toy for each girl or boy? - 11/4/2010 7:35:18 AM   
DesFIP


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Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Maria, I wasn't saying that I only worry about HIV but that having lost so many friends to it has made me aware of how important it is to protect ourselves, period. And yes, I don't want to be in the room when people are swinging bloody floggers around, exposing everyone. There's a reason a lot of us only play/are intimate with those we are fluid bonded with.

Plus as someone else said, there's the emotional squick factor of him using on me the same toys he used on his ex.

But this is a nonissue if subs own their own toy bags, like going to a manicurist is safer if you bring your own manicure tools.


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RE: Soooooooooooooo.. new toy for each girl or boy? - 11/4/2010 8:06:18 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline 		Oh I completely understand your fears Desfip and lets face it, someone who fears, takes far more precautions than someone who walks blindly on.
I have had friends and known others die of both AIDs and Hepatitis and others who are living with HIV. Two of those friends were active members of the scene and ya know what? they looked really healthy up until getting struck down with illnesses that they never recovered from.
I don't go to many clubs anymore. I got sick of seeing people throwing caution to the wind. People on a high getting carried away with the moment and who probably wake up the next morning thinking 'what the hell was I thinking last night when I let that stranger do that to me?'.
On the UK scene it seems like everyone but their uncle are playing with sharps and many of them don't even have the basics of what to do if they get a needle stick.

People have to live with the consequences of their actions and sadly, a lot of those actions are down to ignorance.


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RE: Soooooooooooooo.. new toy for each girl or boy? - 11/4/2010 8:33:01 AM   
strangedesire


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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz
Silicone isn’t sterilized when boiled because boiling doesn’t kill all life forms and that’s why the medical profession don’t re-use medical grade silicone vaginally or anally.



Actually, it's pretty common to reuse silicone catheters. I'm not familiar with the silicone equipment doctors commonly use vaginally or anally, so I can't speak to that.

It is true, however, that medical professionals generally autoclave their equipment, bringing it to a higher temperature than boiling water will. Boiling water will kill just about any live bacteria and viruses (exception: thermophiles) but it takes higher temperatures to kill some spores, like clostridium botulinum.

quote:

stand close to someone taking a bloody flogging


I agree completely. *twitch* I'm pretty particular about allowing myself and mine to be exposed to stray bodily fluids.


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RE: Soooooooooooooo.. new toy for each girl or boy? - 11/4/2010 8:39:09 AM   
Twoshoes


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Joined: 7/27/2010
Status: offline 		And none of those methods destroy prions.

Edit: Not that you can do much, anyway, but while we're listing pathogens that aren't denatured by autoclaves...

< Message edited by Twoshoes -- 11/4/2010 8:50:50 AM >

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RE: Soooooooooooooo.. new toy for each girl or boy? - 11/4/2010 9:42:54 AM   
allthatjaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: strangedesire



Actually, it's pretty common to reuse silicone catheters.



Not on different people.

quote:


It is true, however, that medical professionals generally autoclave their equipment, bringing it to a higher temperature than boiling water will. Boiling water will kill just about any live bacteria and viruses (exception: thermophiles) but it takes higher temperatures to kill some spores, like clostridium botulinum.

and its spores we should be worried about.
Some bacteria form spores/structures, which help them to survive harmful conditions and spores can withstand boiling.
To sterilize something, it must be done in an autoclave or a good pressure cooker or canning pan (poor mans autoclave).
Boiling water can not go higher than 100 deg. C. If you want to get the temperature higher, then you have to raise pressure and this is what an autoclave/pressure cooker does. To properly sterilize something, you need reach a temperature of 121 degrees C
Viruses are easier to kill with boiling water because viruses are fragile without a host.





< Message edited by allthatjaz -- 11/4/2010 9:43:52 AM >

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RE: Soooooooooooooo.. new toy for each girl or boy? - 11/4/2010 1:10:16 PM   
WolfyMontgomery


Posts: 234
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: offline 		You know, I actually find it kind of funny that all this talk is the refusal to use toys to break skin, when at any and all parties that I have gone to (and I haven't been to a LOT, but I've been to plenty) any and all toys that were available for public use weren't allowed to break skin in any way, shape or form beyond mild bruising (which doesn't really break the skin far as I can tell). Heck, at one of the parties I went to the host actually had a very stern talking to with one couple who used one of his toys a little bit too much (her ass got mildly bloody), got everyone's attention, and tossed the toy into the trash. The couple, while allowed to stay for the duration of the party, weren't allowed to play anymore in the dungeon.

I've never come into a situation though where there were toys offered to play that I was afraid of what diseases I could get, mostly because there were always strict rules in place to keep the shareable toys clean. Granted I could see replacing toys in relationships due to the fact that the individuals there might not have had those rules in place, and so the toys WERE used in those ways.

But what about the toys that are public that are NOT used to break skin? As I said, that was a rule, so those toys had never touched blood. Are there still major issues with those toys as well, or is it purely the ones that have been used to break skin or have been suspected to have broken skin? Why, if it's such an issue, does practically every single play party out there have toys to share during the party?


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RE: Soooooooooooooo.. new toy for each girl or boy? - 11/4/2010 4:32:22 PM   
MaamJay


Posts: 2101
Joined: 9/2/2005
Status: offline 		Likewise, none of the play parties I attended or hosted had bloody floggings or paddlings. It was clear from the rules this wasn't allowed. Generally, most brought their own toys anyway, but the furniture was shared. There was hospital grade disinfectant to wipe that with and folks were encouraged to wipe it over before and after they used it. Generally the only bodily fluid that might be on the furniture was sweat or just maybe some pussyleak or precum (though personal towels were encouraged). The only blood play was needleplay and that had to be done with all appropriate precautions for piercing and on a dropsheet that could be appropriately treated afterwards. Just common sense really.

When I play, ALL insertables always wear a condom, and get thoroughly cleaned thereafter. And I don't get to play often enough to worry too much about the flogger holding anything, given that it never breaks skin, gets sprayed and air dried afterwards and probably won't get used again for months. Paddles are wiped with disinfectant and air dried. I inspect subs before I play to see if there are any small wounds or pimples etc that would preclude My hitting them in that spot with a flogger or paddle. In fact, the medical close inspection is pretty much always My starting point ... and is quite a hot way to get started as well as being practical. I always wear gloves whenever I do anal play with someone too.

So I'm more with kiwisub and Strangedesire here. I know a lot about human biology and I take precautions, but also realise we are exposed to lots of bacteria and viruses in everyday life too about which we can do very little.

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

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RE: Soooooooooooooo.. new toy for each girl or boy? - 11/4/2010 8:42:57 PM   
AlexandraLynch


Posts: 778
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: offline 		Insertables are personal.  But I don't do insertable play with people I'm not in closer relationship with.

My leather floggers are only used for lighter scenes. For heavier play, I have rubber flogger, dragon's tongue, and dragon's tail, as well as metal, plastic, and sealed wood items. By and large, though, I don't play to blood.



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RE: Soooooooooooooo.. new toy for each girl or boy? - 11/5/2010 3:03:28 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline 		The UK scene must be different. I have been going to BDSM clubs and parties for at least ten years and spent a number of years running my own club, worked for other clubs and had many private parties. I couldn't start to calculate how many clubs and private events I have attended but I can remember only one party where tools were provided and I can remember thinking 'what the fuck?'.
I wouldn't be happy if a DM approached me in a club or at a party and said 'excuse me but could you not flog her quiet so hard?'
Floggers have a wiping effect and can clear away small particles of bodily fluids before they are ever seen. They are absorbent and so make perfect implements for harboring nasties.
I don't understand why anyone would want to use someone elses toys, unless it was the sub toys you were using whilst playing with him/her.

< Message edited by allthatjaz -- 11/5/2010 3:04:04 AM >

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RE: Soooooooooooooo.. new toy for each girl or boy? - 11/5/2010 2:02:49 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline 		I am on the more... cautious... end of the spectrum. I encourage those of our household who play to maintain their own separate toys, including floggers, etc. I have a few special toys of my own, but they're either kept for "over clothing" use, or, in the case where I bought something with someone in mind, only used for that particular individual.

I don't keep a huge, expensive toy-bag. Over the years, I've honed my interests to a particular set of preferred tools that I enjoy, and when I am choosing the play, we play with my toys that are maintained solely for the person I'm with. The things that I do with assorted partners have "built in" turnover, because most of what I do with outside partners includes piercing play, which is -always- done with new, sterile implements for each individual participant. If someone I play with wants something that I don't plan on keeping in my arsenal, they're encouraged to see about obtaining one of their own, for their own toybag. We have always encouraged our servants to both maintain and use their own toys, insertables, whips, floggers, leather implements and bondage gear, etc. These items have cellular structure, and cannot be cleaned sufficiently, in our opinion, to eliminate risk of cross-contamination between players.

Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 11/5/2010 2:04:44 PM >

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RE: Soooooooooooooo.. new toy for each girl or boy? - 11/5/2010 2:10:35 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
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quote:

But what about the toys that are public that are NOT used to break skin? As I said, that was a rule, so those toys had never touched blood. Are there still major issues with those toys as well, or is it purely the ones that have been used to break skin or have been suspected to have broken skin?

I still won't use them for myself or my servants. Viruses, bacteria (including VRSA, MRSA and other nasty staph and strep infections), fungi, etc., can make their way into the materials over time, making these toys unsanitary. That, and I have no idea how those toys are cleaned, how they're treated, how they're stored... (yes, I am just this anal retentive).

quote:

Why, if it's such an issue, does practically every single play party out there have toys to share during the party?
The only equipment I've ever seen "shared" at parties that I've attended has been furniture -- and even then, only furniture that could be cleaned with hospital-grade disinfecting cleaner between users. I've -never- seen 'soft toys' like floggers, crops, etc., "loaned out", so I can't really respond to this question.

Calla


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RE: Soooooooooooooo.. new toy for each girl or boy? - 11/5/2010 5:48:29 PM   
hausboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: strangedesire

How many male tops go out and get a new penis for every relationship? How many tops (of any gender) dunk their hands in boiling water before touching a partner's genitalia for the first time? For that matter, how many people use gloves for hand-to-genital contact during casual play?




Ummm.
I do.

Get a new dick for a new partner? Yup.  I sure did.

And yes. I wore gloves....every fuck....every time.  As did my partner.  The sound of a glove being pulled on is the sweetest sound to my ears.  Allowed me to go from fisting....to fucking her ass....back to her front...with a change of the glove.  Gloves make fisting and fucking a lot easier, safer (yes,I know,  hand to genital is very low risk compared to other things) and from what my bottoms tell me, more enjoyable.  If she was having her period, still no problem....unless no glove, no love.

I could still feel her heat, her wetness and she could feel everything I did. 

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RE: Soooooooooooooo.. new toy for each girl or boy? - 11/5/2010 5:53:49 PM   
hausboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

Smallpox which can live for up to 2 ½ years outside the human body and TB can live for around 8 months outside the human body. They say, the longer a virus can survive without a host, the more deadly it is and if you look at smallpox and tuberculosis, it doesn’t take much working out to know that’s true (except in the case of HIV and the HEP virus) but fortunately both SP & TB have been virtually eradicated from the western world.


Sorry...not trying to hijack or be argumentative....
but Smallpox HAS been eradicated in it's natural form --it only exists two known, highly secure labs globally.  One case of smallpox anywhere in the world is a global public health emergency. TB has not been eradicated from the western world. Not even close.  Deal with cases on a regular basis.

I now return you to your toy discussion, which is much more fun.  Communicable disease feels too much like work.

< Message edited by hausboy -- 11/5/2010 5:54:33 PM >

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RE: Soooooooooooooo.. new toy for each girl or boy? - 11/5/2010 6:54:25 PM   
LadyNTrainer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sally46
So, if you use your flogger on the gentiles of either the boy or girl... you reserve that flogger for that boy/girl?  You folks must have a lot of money.


The only floggers I use on genitals or draw blood with are one person toys or disposable.  Floggers can be made of soft rope for under $5, or spline and duct tape for even cheaper if it's blood drawing you want.  Leather can be cleaned - sort of - with hospital grade disinfectants, but it's not something you want to do too often to good leather and it's of dubious reliability in a porous material regardless.  If necessary I would use gas sterilization (ETO), autoclaving or cold sterilization, depending on the type of material the toy was made of.


quote:

So... is it just you feel it is 'yucky' to use washed sterilized equipment such as a ball stretcher on more than one boy?  or a flogger on more than one set of gentiles? 


But what if your subbies are Jewish? 


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