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HIGHER EDUCATION - 10/15/2010 11:31:07 AM

defiantbadgirl

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Colleges and trade schools love to tell graduating high school students and low income older adults how earning a degree will land them a good paying career. If it doesn't work out that way and graduates are overwhelmed with student loans they can't pay, they are told education is for learning, not increasing their earnings. Excluding multimillionaires, nobody their right mind spends thousands of dollars for the purpose of learning alone. How does a potential student decide on a major or trade school certificate? Research? For every article claiming job growth in certain fields, there's an article and/or forum saying the opposite. New graduates say they can't get a job because they lack experience. Those with years of experience say companies only hire young graduates and nobody will hire them because they don't want to pay for their experience and want to keep health insurance premiums low (the fewer older workers a company employs, the lower their health insurance premiums are). Is continuing education a waste of money for older people because of their age? Which is it? Just because an article isn't written by a college or trade school doesn't mean the author wasn't paid by colleges and/or trade schools to write it. How can someone who is researching higher education tell which articles are biased and which articles aren't biased?

_____________________________

Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.

Collared by MartinSpankalot May 13 2008

Post #: 1

RE: HIGHER EDUCATION - 10/15/2010 12:06:17 PM

myotherself

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From: The cold bit of the UK
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First of all, I believe that higher education (even for us oldies) is always a good thing. If nothing else, it keeps the brain cells from dying off!

But your question seems to be based around which course/trade to choose...I would say that your best bet is to do your own research. Think about the course you'd like to do, and then contact some of the companies you might possibly be applying to when the course is finished. Ask them if they think the course you're doing is a worthwhile one, and what sort of things would make you attractive to them once you graduate.

Companies can find this quite flattering, and if you have a good discussion, there's a good chance you'll be remembered positively by them when you graduate.

In terms of unbiassed research - I don't really know how it works where you are, but is there not some kind of government department that looks at graduate employment? Their data should be unbiassed, and hopefully with a bit of diligence you can find it yourself online or by making a few calls, and again you can do some evaluating on your own.

As someone who already has a bachelor's degree, a post-graduate teaching certificate and is currently working through night school for a second bachelor's degree (and with plans to move on to a Masters in time), I think education is worthwhile ... mainly cos the Geeks Will Inherit the Earth!!!

_____________________________

There's nowt so queer as folk

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)

Post #: 2

RE: HIGHER EDUCATION - 10/15/2010 12:47:05 PM

daddysprop247

Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

Excluding multimillionaires, nobody their right mind spends thousands of dollars for the purpose of learning alone.

actually, that's the one and only reason i went to college. i wanted to learn more about a subject which filled me with passion and fascination...anthropology. future earning potential could not have been less important to me, and i always sort of looked down on folks who went to college, chose a major and obtained a degree with that goal...completely defeats the purpose of higher learning.

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)

Post #: 3

RE: HIGHER EDUCATION - 10/15/2010 1:14:23 PM

January

Posts: 891
Joined: 4/17/2004
Status: offline

Hi defiant,

The only way to determine whether a trade school certificate makes economic sense is to look in the help wanted ads. Is anybody hiring? If all you hear about are internships in your chosen field, you can be sure nobody is hiring. The trade school is going to tell you there are plenty of jobs, and the articles are largely speculation. Few people bother to see what the job market is--on their own. That's a mistake, I think.

Of course if a major makes economic sense is really dependent on a whole lot more, as you are looking four years down the line. I would say the most telling factor will be YOUR flexibility. Can you market yourself in a slightly different direction if the job winds change?

daddysprop, I agree with you. I'm also a happy, happy learner. But some folks don't have that luxury--maybe they need a quick profession to bring in the $, kids to support and all. Certainly, I've told my own kids that passion has to be part of the college plan.

January

_____________________________

[link: http://www.bookstrand.com/miss-you-sir] Miss You, Sir by January Rowe is available from Siren now! It's my latest smokin' hot bdsm romance.[/link]

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)

Post #: 4

RE: HIGHER EDUCATION - 10/15/2010 3:36:03 PM

Steponme73

Posts: 552
Joined: 11/9/2007
Status: offline

It never hurts to get more education. The more the better. Sometimes it pays off right away sometimes not. But it will pay off eventually.

(in reply to January)

Post #: 5

RE: HIGHER EDUCATION - 10/15/2010 4:49:04 PM

Missokyst

Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline

I have 5 degrees. I have never used any of them. I went to college because I love learning, researching but one thing always leads to another. I work in a job I love which benefitted from my love of research but has nothing to do with any of my 5 majors, or the minors.
The way technology is moving nothing stays the same for long. That which is HOT now, may be obsolete in a decade. Instead of learning to make money, learn to do something you love.

(in reply to Steponme73)

Post #: 6

RE: HIGHER EDUCATION - 10/15/2010 5:04:35 PM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

Student loans?

Why should that matter?

(in reply to Missokyst)

Post #: 7

RE: HIGHER EDUCATION - 10/15/2010 5:16:20 PM

DarkSteven

Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline

I paid my way through. No loans, no grants. I was lucky to find a job, but it took me a while.

You're sounding like you were given advice, took it uncritically, and resent the advice given. I agree with you that guidance is typically pretty bad, but it is YOUR responsibility to figure out what you want to do with your life. Not only pay, but something you enjoy doing.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Post #: 8

RE: HIGHER EDUCATION - 10/15/2010 5:51:57 PM

thornhappy

Posts: 8596
Joined: 12/16/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: myotherself
Think about the course you'd like to do, and then contact some of the companies you might possibly be applying to when the course is finished. Ask them if they think the course you're doing is a worthwhile one, and what sort of things would make you attractive to them once you graduate.

This can be incredibly useful. I went to an engineering job fair while I was a technician and asked Nellcor if they hired biomedical engineers. He said that they hired EE, ChemE, MechE and then just give them in-house crosstraining in biomedical engineering.

As for my nickel's worth:

Take a good close at what your body can take. Nursing, cooking, auto repair, etc. will require you to be on your feet all day.

If you're unsure what field to study, go to a community college until you figure it out. At night.

Get on the web and look at the Sunday classifieds on all the papers you can find. That'll give you an idea for which regions need what jobs, even in a recession.

Take a good hard look at what the education will cost vs the cost of the education. I have no idea why people go into social work, considering you need a master's and the pay is very poor. The same goes for paying tons of money for a culinary degree (Bourdain gives some very frank advice about culinary education and what a cook's life would be like after graduation. It ain't pretty.)

Avoid for-profit schools at all costs.

I don't know of 4-year schools that tell folks that they'll get a great job. Hell, even English majors know they won't. My theater program was very blunt about how rough the field is. If you do go to school, try one that does co-op work, so you can rack up job experience, or make absolutely sure to work summer job in that field.

If you're >40, try a lateral move instead of a whole new field.

(in reply to myotherself)

Post #: 9

RE: HIGHER EDUCATION - 10/15/2010 5:59:10 PM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

I would look at the top 10 careers that are projected to grow in the next 10 years, and make yourself employable in that career or in a job that supports that career. Education is only part of it. You also have to hustle and build your resume with pertinent job experience, whether it is paid or volunteer or internship - this is what savvy undergrads and grad students do.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to thornhappy)

Post #: 10

RE: HIGHER EDUCATION - 10/15/2010 6:13:18 PM

defiantbadgirl

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Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline

If you want to learn something just for the sake of learning, that's what libraries and the internet are for. If you're going to spend thousands of dollars to earn a degree or certificate, shouldn't you expect a return on such an expensive investment? That's why research is so important. Unfortunately, research seems to produce conflicting results. How do you decide what degree or certificate is the best investment when for every article that says a certain degree is good to earn, there's another article that states the opposite? What about companies not hiring anyone over 35 because of insurance premiums? Is continuing education for the sole purpose of obtaining a successful career a waste of time for anyone over 35?

_____________________________

Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.

Collared by MartinSpankalot May 13 2008

(in reply to daddysprop247)

Post #: 11

RE: HIGHER EDUCATION - 10/15/2010 6:19:52 PM

defiantbadgirl

Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

I would look at the top 10 careers that are projected to grow in the next 10 years, and make yourself employable in that career or in a job that supports that career. Education is only part of it. You also have to hustle and build your resume with pertinent job experience, whether it is paid or volunteer or internship - this is what savvy undergrads and grad students do.

I have read many articles that list top careers. Often there is a comment section below where hundreds of people with experience in those careers listed can't find jobs.

_____________________________

Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.

Collared by MartinSpankalot May 13 2008

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 12

RE: HIGHER EDUCATION - 10/15/2010 6:23:11 PM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

They are losing out on job interviews because of their attitude, negativity, lack of work experience, etc. Just having a degree is never a guarantee of employment. You are looking at one single component (education) and there are many variables and reasons why those hundreds are missing out on those jobs.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)

Post #: 13

RE: HIGHER EDUCATION - 10/15/2010 6:37:21 PM

DarkSteven

Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

They are losing out on job interviews because of their attitude, negativity, lack of work experience, etc. Just having a degree is never a guarantee of employment. You are looking at one single component (education) and there are many variables and reasons why those hundreds are missing out on those jobs.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 14

RE: HIGHER EDUCATION - 10/15/2010 6:43:37 PM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

I will use my son as an example. He came close to 2 jobs after he graduated from college. At that point he decided to go to graduate school, which I fully supported as a great option. I also encouraged him to build his resume with work experience and internships that were directly relevant to his chosen job of the future. Even if he does not land his chosen job, he will get something like it as he has been diligently accepting work experience and internships that build on his education and goals. I believe there has to be a plan when you do further education and you need to make goals and support them with what you do while in school. Everyone I know who has done this has been successful.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 15

RE: HIGHER EDUCATION - 10/15/2010 6:46:35 PM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

OP,

Gerald Celente says it is not worth it.

IMO the loans make the tuition higher. just like mortgages make the cost of a house higher.

A student loan- is like a mortgage with out a house.

It could be worth it- to learn to be an electrician, or a DR.    But for most people- I dont view it as worth the cost.

Those costs do not translate into higher salaries.

I doubt it. many have degrees and never get a job in that field- yet- the loans now cant even come off in a bankrupcy.

My advice to young people is to get a job skill.   A job skill that people will pay cash money to buy.

If you ever heard of vanity publishing-   colleges remind me of that.    Stroke the ego so as to take the money.

Banks like student loans--- they do not go away in a bankruptcy and the govt guarantees them.   I have 3 or 4 years left on my student loan.

If I had to do it again- I would have gotten a job skill. Maybe an aprpenticeship. BTW_ in some countries- they take your drivers license and you house if you default on a student loan- expect soemthoihg like that in the US in the future.

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 16

RE: HIGHER EDUCATION - 10/15/2010 6:48:24 PM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

They are losing out on job interviews because of their attitude, negativity, lack of work experience, etc. Just having a degree is never a guarantee of employment. You are looking at one single component (education) and there are many variables and reasons why those hundreds are missing out on those jobs.

Yeah- a timewaster.

One could start ones own business for what college costs- and then they would have the experience- and they would not need the degree or the fob offer.

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 17

RE: HIGHER EDUCATION - 10/15/2010 6:54:01 PM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline

The reality is that most people are working for someone else, whether it is a private company, public company or the government. To position yourself to be self-employed is not going to work for the masses.
As far as getting a skill, I agree that it is important, but that usually costs money too, unless you can apprentice. And not all job benefit is salary, there are also other benefits to consider - health insurance, retirement, vacation time, etc. When considering a career you need to look at everything, including your personality and physical ability to do the job.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to pahunkboy)

Post #: 18

RE: HIGHER EDUCATION - 10/15/2010 6:59:55 PM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

How can someone who is researching higher education tell which articles are biased and which articles aren't biased?

There's an important assumption you're overlooking--that a degree is a magic one-size-fits-all door opener.

It isn't. Getting a degree without the skills is quite doable, and quite a few people do.

Alas--it's the skills that open the doors, both initially and throughout a career.

And the most important skill? The ability to continually learn.

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)

Post #: 19

RE: HIGHER EDUCATION - 10/15/2010 7:05:57 PM

pahunkboy

Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

Colleges and trade schools love to tell graduating high school students and low income older adults how earning a degree will land them a good paying career. If it doesn't work out that way and graduates are overwhelmed with student loans they can't pay, they are told education is for learning, not increasing their earnings. Excluding multimillionaires, nobody their right mind spends thousands of dollars for the purpose of learning alone. How does a potential student decide on a major or trade school certificate? Research? For every article claiming job growth in certain fields, there's an article and/or forum saying the opposite. New graduates say they can't get a job because they lack experience. Those with years of experience say companies only hire young graduates and nobody will hire them because they don't want to pay for their experience and want to keep health insurance premiums low (the fewer older workers a company employs, the lower their health insurance premiums are). Is continuing education a waste of money for older people because of their age? Which is it? Just because an article isn't written by a college or trade school doesn't mean the author wasn't paid by colleges and/or trade schools to write it. How can someone who is researching higher education tell which articles are biased and which articles aren't biased?

Here is a great documentary on your position- expanded.

http://larouchepac.com/harvard-yard It is an hour long- and I think you would enjoy it.

Let me know your thoughts on the film. Seriously- it expounds on your premise, and sums it up nicely.

Of course MM, and Katy, wont watch it- and will THINK they know what is in it. However- this very aspect will support the premises in the film.

:-)

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)

Post #: 20

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