RE: Justice Scalia is at it again. (Full Version)

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rulemylife -> RE: Justice Scalia is at it again. (9/23/2010 6:49:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


Umm. . . he has a point.  The US Constitution did NOT recognize the rights of women. 

That is a historical fact.

The US Constitution actually took away some rights that women had.

He is not saying that women should be denied rights, he is talking about what the founders envisioned.

Remember Abigael Adams?


Which gets us back to the point that Scalia and many others believe in a strict, literal interpretation of a document that was written in a purposefully broad manner to anticipate changes in society.

But more to the point, even if he is right about "what the founders envisioned",  is it realistically applicable more than two centuries later?

And if not, then what is the point of him talking about it other than to be the pompous, attention-seeking ass that he is?




Aylee -> RE: Justice Scalia is at it again. (9/23/2010 7:36:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


Is this what you are proclaiming we return too?


And just where in the hell did I suggest that?





Aylee -> RE: Justice Scalia is at it again. (9/23/2010 7:40:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


Umm. . . he has a point.  The US Constitution did NOT recognize the rights of women. 

That is a historical fact.

The US Constitution actually took away some rights that women had.

He is not saying that women should be denied rights, he is talking about what the founders envisioned.

Remember Abigael Adams?


Which gets us back to the point that Scalia and many others believe in a strict, literal interpretation of a document that was written in a purposefully broad manner to anticipate changes in society.

But more to the point, even if he is right about "what the founders envisioned",  is it realistically applicable more than two centuries later?

And if not, then what is the point of him talking about it other than to be the pompous, attention-seeking ass that he is?



Oh my.  Suggesting that laws should come from the legislature as opposed to the judicial bench is really out of line.[8|]





mnottertail -> RE: Justice Scalia is at it again. (9/23/2010 7:42:36 AM)

Yeah, like was around in the old days about others instead of who we should be watching:

We don't want these clowns legislating from the bench.




Aylee -> RE: Justice Scalia is at it again. (9/23/2010 7:45:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

We don't want these clowns legislating from the bench.


Actually, no I do not.  Such a thing corrupts the separation of powers and the ideal of checks and balances.




rulemylife -> RE: Justice Scalia is at it again. (9/23/2010 8:04:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

Oh my.  Suggesting that laws should come from the legislature as opposed to the judicial bench is really out of line.[8|]



And here I thought the Constitution designated a judicial branch to interpret the law.


FindLaw: U.S. Constitution: Article III


The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;...




Aylee -> RE: Justice Scalia is at it again. (9/23/2010 8:19:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

Oh my.  Suggesting that laws should come from the legislature as opposed to the judicial bench is really out of line.[8|]



And here I thought the Constitution designated a judicial branch to interpret the law.


FindLaw: U.S. Constitution: Article III


The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;...



Interpret, not make.




rulemylife -> RE: Justice Scalia is at it again. (9/23/2010 8:31:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

Oh my.  Suggesting that laws should come from the legislature as opposed to the judicial bench is really out of line.[8|]



And here I thought the Constitution designated a judicial branch to interpret the law.


FindLaw: U.S. Constitution: Article III


The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;...



Interpret, not make.


Ok, give me an example of a court making a law.






Sserpentia -> RE: Justice Scalia is at it again. (9/23/2010 8:38:43 AM)

The Constitution did NOT take away rights of women. The states took themselves took away those rights.

In the state of New Jersey, thousands of women voted from 1776-1807. Overwhelmingly, the women were voting for the republicans at that time. The Federalists, in a move to help themselves, banned women and african-americans.

http://www2.scc.rutgers.edu/njh/womens_suffrage/intro.php




rulemylife -> RE: Justice Scalia is at it again. (9/23/2010 8:48:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sserpentia

The Constitution did NOT take away rights of women. The states took themselves took away those rights.

In the state of New Jersey, thousands of women voted from 1776-1807. Overwhelmingly, the women were voting for the republicans at that time. The Federalists, in a move to help themselves, banned women and african-americans.

http://www2.scc.rutgers.edu/njh/womens_suffrage/intro.php


When did I say it did?




Sserpentia -> RE: Justice Scalia is at it again. (9/23/2010 8:52:17 AM)

RML

Sorry...you didn't say it did. Aylee did.




DomKen -> RE: Justice Scalia is at it again. (9/23/2010 8:55:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sserpentia

The Constitution did NOT take away rights of women. The states took themselves took away those rights.

In the state of New Jersey, thousands of women voted from 1776-1807. Overwhelmingly, the women were voting for the republicans at that time. The Federalists, in a move to help themselves, banned women and african-americans.

http://www2.scc.rutgers.edu/njh/womens_suffrage/intro.php

If they were voting for a party that wouldn't exist for 45 more years I think they should have been disenfranchised.




Sserpentia -> RE: Justice Scalia is at it again. (9/23/2010 9:00:41 AM)

Federalists were in power from the 1790's to almost 1820.




DomKen -> RE: Justice Scalia is at it again. (9/23/2010 9:04:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sserpentia

Federalists were in power from the 1790's to almost 1820.

They sure were.

The Republican party OTOH wasn't formed until the 1850's.




Sserpentia -> RE: Justice Scalia is at it again. (9/23/2010 9:09:41 AM)

Ok, lets be very clear. The party which led to the republican party, started by Jefferson. Better?




Sserpentia -> RE: Justice Scalia is at it again. (9/23/2010 9:12:49 AM)

Point being, it was on party within a state which banned women from voting from the state constitution. It's not the Constitution of the United States which denies rights of women.




DomKen -> RE: Justice Scalia is at it again. (9/23/2010 9:19:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sserpentia

Ok, lets be very clear. The party which led to the republican party, started by Jefferson. Better?

Jefferson would be offended and outraged by that claim.

The party Jefferson founded was called the Democratic-Republican party. It split in the 1820's into the Democratic Party and the Whig Party. The GOP formed when the Whigs fell apart in the 1850's.




Sserpentia -> RE: Justice Scalia is at it again. (9/23/2010 9:39:07 AM)

Actually, the whigs were only around for about 15 years. From the mid 30's to 50. It's still factually accurate. Jefferson started the party (call it the Jeffersonians or Democratic-Republicans) which split off to the whigs, who eventually became the republicans.

I don't think the details of the party are actually that important, and it wasn't the topic of discussion. But whatever. I don't mind discussing history.





tazzygirl -> RE: Justice Scalia is at it again. (9/23/2010 9:41:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sserpentia

Point being, it was on party within a state which banned women from voting from the state constitution. It's not the Constitution of the United States which denies rights of women.


The Constitution would be a poor set of rights if it were locked in the 1780s. The Eighth Amendment would protect us against only the sort of punishment that was deemed cruel and unusual back then. As Justice Breyer has said, "Flogging as a punishment might have been fine in the 18th century. That doesn't mean that it would be OK ... today." And how could we say that the Fourth Amendment limits government wiretapping - when the founders could not have conceived of a telephone, much less a tap?

Justice Scalia doesn't even have consistency on his side. After all, he has been happy to interpret the equal-protection clause broadly when it fits his purposes. In Bush v. Gore, he joined the majority that stopped the vote recount in Florida in 2000 - because they said equal protection required it. Is there really any reason to believe that the drafters - who, after all, were trying to help black people achieve equality - intended to protect President Bush's right to have the same procedures for a vote recount in Broward County as he had in Miami-Dade? (If Justice Scalia had been an equal-protection originalist in that case, he would have focused on the many black Floridians whose votes were not counted - not on the white President who wanted to stop counting votes.)

Even worse, while Justice Scalia argues for writing women out of the Constitution, there is another group he has been working hard to write in: corporations. The word "corporation" does not appear in the Constitution, and there is considerable evidence that the founders were worried about corporate influence. But in a landmark ruling earlier this year, Justice Scalia joined a narrow majority in striking down longstanding limits on corporate spending in federal elections, insisting that they violated the First Amendment.

It is a strange view of the Constitution to say that when it says every "person" must have "equal protection," it does not protect women, but that freedom of "speech" - something only humans were capable of in 1787 and today - guarantees corporations the right to spend unlimited amounts of money to influence elections.

source

It becomes more interesting if you read the whole article.




FatDomDaddy -> RE: Justice Scalia is at it again. (9/23/2010 2:16:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sserpentia

Actually, the whigs were only around for about 15 years. From the mid 30's to 50. It's still factually accurate. Jefferson started the party (call it the Jeffersonians or Democratic-Republicans) which split off to the whigs, who eventually became the republicans.

I don't think the details of the party are actually that important, and it wasn't the topic of discussion. But whatever. I don't mind discussing history.




Ss...

as much as I hate to admit it, Ken is correct. Jefferson's Democratic Republicans are the direct ancestor's of today Democrat Party. That is why the Democrats every year celebrate with a Jefferson/Jackson Day.

The Federalists, died out but were on the wane outside of New England by the end of Jefferson's second term so much so that even John Quincy Adams had turned Republican. The Federalist were dead as a dornail following the War of 1812 and from the last Congress of The Madison admin through to Jackson Adminstration, there was one real political party in the United States The Democrat Republican Party.

As the western and southern democrat populists movement grew, there was a split in DRP into the Quincy led National Republicans and the Andrew Jackon led Democrat Republicans.... BOTH claiming Jefferson as thier founder. The name Democrats comes from this time. If one backed the Jacksonian Platform, one was labled a Democrat. If you backed the Quincy led side of the DRP you were a Nationalist. The now Jacksonian Democrats lost the first battle but won the war (so to speak) for Jefferson's Legacy and are the modern Democrat Party of today. The National Republican died. Probably 60-65% of the NR polilticans folded back to the Jackson side, the rest became...

The Whigs and they were a whole new party with no direct ties to Jefferson.

They died too.

Then The Republican Party the grew out as a whole new party, some Free Labor, some former Whigs, some Abolitionist Northern Democrats, also with no direct ties to Jefferson.

That's why Republican's celebrate with a Lincoln Day.

Jefferson was a do as I say, not as I do Politican... he'd fit right in with today's Democrats.





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