Islam, Women, and American Civil Rights (Full Version)

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FirmhandKY -> Islam, Women, and American Civil Rights (9/16/2010 3:58:54 PM)

There are a number of Muslim women who wish to have equal rights with men, in the practice of their religion.

Several times this year, several of these women "crashed" a mosque in DC, and entered the men's prayer area.

The Iman called the DC area police and the police told the women to leave, or be arrested.

Some articles:


Muslim Women Protest Policies At Islamic Center
7-foot-high wall separates women, men
By KAVITHA CARDOZA WAMU 88.5 NEWS
Mon, Feb 22, 2010

Some women who protested at the Islamic Center of Washington, wanting to be able to worship in the main prayer hall with their male counterparts, were asked to leave by the police. But they say their struggle will continue.

Carpets with intricate designs cover the floors of the main prayer hall and turquoise tiles line the walls. But the source of contention is a small room created with 7-foot-high wooden walls. Jannah B'int Hannah describes how she feels in there where she cannot see the imam, or leader of the mosque, speak.

"Boxed in, stifling, suffocating and totally a second class citizen," Hannah said.

Over the weekend, Hannah and approximately 20 other women prayed in the main hall, but D.C. police were called. They asked them to leave or be arrested.

...

Asra Nomani is a leading Islamic feminist who led a similar protest in West Virginia.

"We have this generation of American muslim women who are saying look you want us to go to Harvard, to rise to the highest level of Wall Street firms and you want us to sit where in the mosque?," Nomani said.

Women activists say they will continue to try to pray in the main hall until this policy changes.


Washington DC Mosque – Muslim Women Demand End To Sex Segregation Again

Last month, a Muslim woman by the name of Jannah B’int Hannah led a group of Muslim women in gatecrashing the main prayer hall of the Islamic Center of Washington to demand an end to sex segregation in mosques in America.  That demonstration was broken up by Washington DC police but the Muslim women said they would continue with their struggle on this matter.  This week, true to their word, risking arrest, the Muslim women returned to the Islamic Center of Washington to repeat their action and their demand for an end to sex segregation in mosques.

Whereas the February protest managed to gather 20 Muslim women, this time round the demonstrating group consists of 6 Muslim women.  According to press reports, this group is led by Fatima Thompson, an American Muslim who converted to the faith 18 years ago.

The 6 Muslim women, with hair covered by headscarves, entered the prayer hall of the Islamic Center of Washington through the main door. They then joined 20 other Muslim men present to pray.  The main prayer hall is the domain of male worshippers.  Female worshippers have their own prayer room at the side, which is much smaller, the entrance door of which is hidden behind a screen.

What is the purpose of this demonstration?  Fatima Thompson explains: “Wooden barriers have to be taken down and women have to be allowed to join, to pray behind the men in the main praying area. That’s our request.   We are against gender segregation, against the fact that women are put aside or in a totally different room at the mosque.”

Fatima Thompson added: “The general issue we are pushing is gender segregation and the ramifications it fosters. It’s not healthy, and not reflective of our society here. It’s very reflective of very restrictive, ultra orthodox societies.”

Asra Nomani, a leading Islamic feminist who led a similar protest in West Virginia, said last month: “We have this generation of American Muslim women who are saying ‘look, you want us to go to Harvard, to rise to the highest level of Wall Street firms and you want us to sit where in the mosque?’”

Speaking about this month’s protest, Asra Nomani said: “If you are black in this country they can’t tell you to sit in a corner but if you are a woman they can.”

So how did the protest end?  Well, like the way the first protest last month ended.  DC police were called in to evict the Muslim women.  The imam presiding over the prayer meeting announced:  “We are going to wait, because some people came to disturb the prayer, until the police come and take care of this issue.”  Then he added: “It’s disgusting.  If they are Muslims they have to follow the rules.”

The police came, and promptly ordered the 6 Muslim women out or face arrest. So what did the women do?  Well they left alright, but they regathered on the street outside facing the metal gates of the mosque to perform their prayers. One male onlooker offered this hopeful advice to the women: “Build your own mosque.”


What are your thoughts on this?

Should the police be party to maintaining this discriminatory practice?

Isn't this similar to the black "lunch counter" sit-ins of the civil rights movement?

Do the women have a point, or should they just shut-up, sit down, and let their betters do what's "best for them"?

Firm




xkittenx -> RE: Islam, Women, and American Civil Rights (9/16/2010 4:06:42 PM)

I'm not saying I agree that the women should be segregated from the men but then again, I'm not Muslim so it doesn't matter if I agree with that or not. I think what bothers me is the idea that we've gone to all this trouble to enforce a separation of church and state but certain people don't want that separation to apply here.

I don't see this as a women's rights situation. The Muslim religion has specific rules for men and women. Its a religious thing and as long as no one is being killed or injured over it, I don't think its the business of someone who isn't a follower of that faith to get involved.




luckydawg -> RE: Islam, Women, and American Civil Rights (9/16/2010 4:10:39 PM)

But what if its just a bus driver thing and you want the darkies to sit in the back behind a sheet?

Hypothetically...




mnottertail -> RE: Islam, Women, and American Civil Rights (9/16/2010 4:12:04 PM)

you would have judge joe the plumber adjudicate it. hypothetically..........




Moonhead -> RE: Islam, Women, and American Civil Rights (9/16/2010 4:14:33 PM)

"Islamic feminist".
There's an expression you don't hear a lot...




mnottertail -> RE: Islam, Women, and American Civil Rights (9/16/2010 4:17:38 PM)

hey, you gotta love this town, that's right folks, you heard it here first!!!!




xkittenx -> RE: Islam, Women, and American Civil Rights (9/16/2010 4:18:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

But what if its just a bus driver thing and you want the darkies to sit in the back behind a sheet?

Hypothetically...


Bus driving isn't a matter of religion, dawg.

If we start allowing the government to order Muslims to alter their religious practices how long until the government takes over ALL religious practices? No. There's a reason we decided to have a separation of church and state. Many reasons, as a matter of fact.

I'm not saying its right or fair or that I agree with the practice but like I said; as long as no one is being killed or injured, I believe this is a matter best left to members of that faith to work out on their own.




defiantbadgirl -> RE: Islam, Women, and American Civil Rights (9/16/2010 4:21:05 PM)

Why did the police ask women wanting equal rights to leave when sex discrimination is supposed to be illegal in the US? Shouldn't the men have been asked to leave instead? A foreign exchange student from Finland that was in on of my classes a few years ago said Americans have less freedom than citizens in his country. I believe him.




luckydawg -> RE: Islam, Women, and American Civil Rights (9/16/2010 4:24:44 PM)

Hmm, I guess if they do not expect the taxpayers to enforce thier sects rules, it's ok.

I don't like the idea of having to pay for that however.

If they want to throw thier women out of their Mosques they should do it themselves.





xkittenx -> RE: Islam, Women, and American Civil Rights (9/16/2010 4:26:57 PM)

I agree with you there.

The police should not have been called.

If these men were so offended by the presence of this group of women in the same room with them, they could have just walked out themselves. (I don't think it would be a good idea to physically throw the women out because then it would have turned into a matter of physical assault.)




Elisabella -> RE: Islam, Women, and American Civil Rights (9/16/2010 4:28:12 PM)

quote:

Should the police be party to maintaining this discriminatory practice?


If they are called in to arrest someone who is committing a crime, they should act impartially.

quote:

Isn't this similar to the black "lunch counter" sit-ins of the civil rights movement?


I believe this should be protected under the idea of separation of church and state. It's not the state's job to tell the church what its doctrine should or should not be.

quote:

Do the women have a point, or should they just shut-up, sit down, and let their betters do what's "best for them"?


Both the women and the men have a point. If Judaism can range from orthodox to reform, Islam should be able to do the same.




luckydawg -> RE: Islam, Women, and American Civil Rights (9/16/2010 4:34:41 PM)

And I suppose that there are rules for who is charge of the Mosque, and someone does have the right to declare them tresspassers and have them removed.

I guess with reflection it is legal and proper.

I just don't like it.




MasterCord -> RE: Islam, Women, and American Civil Rights (9/16/2010 4:35:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xkittenx

I'm not saying I agree that the women should be segregated from the men but then again, I'm not Muslim so it doesn't matter if I agree with that or not. I think what bothers me is the idea that we've gone to all this trouble to enforce a separation of church and state but certain people don't want that separation to apply here.

I don't see this as a women's rights situation. The Muslim religion has specific rules for men and women. Its a religious thing and as long as no one is being killed or injured over it, I don't think its the business of someone who isn't a follower of that faith to get involved.

..............
Perhaps people will see this as a women's rights issue?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoning_of_Du'a_Khalil_Aswad

You make an excellent point Kitten. It is amazing how the left...so wrapped around the axle when someone wants to put up a Nativity scene in a public location....sees nothing wrong with hings like the Mayor of Boston surrendering a high-value real estate parcel that could produce tax revenue, at bargain basement price to an Islamic group....

The Obama left is desperately looking for another "Poster Victim" in time for the election....to try and sap the public back into the fold....they tried with the unemployed....that cratered...they tried the race card...that failed....they tried with illegal immigrants...that didn't fool anyone...now they are trying to climb in bed with Islam to make people feel sorry and guilty....and that isn't working either. Then again, this is what you have to do when you have no real position other than playing Robin Hood to try and make people dependent to keep them in the fold - and your people in office.

MC




luckydawg -> RE: Islam, Women, and American Civil Rights (9/16/2010 4:38:29 PM)

quote:

Isn't this similar to the black "lunch counter" sit-ins of the civil rights movement?

I believe this should be protected under the idea of separation of church and state. It's not the state's job to tell the church what its doctrine should or should not be.



well this is in a grey area, actually.


The state outlawed Polygamy in Mormons. Or should that be overturned.

And as devils advocate, why should the state set doctrine for a lunch counter?




xkittenx -> RE: Islam, Women, and American Civil Rights (9/16/2010 4:41:10 PM)

The state outlawed polygamy but ultimately it was up to the Mormons to decided whether or not to follow that law.

The LDS church chooses not to practice polygamy however there are various branches of Mormons who DO practice polygamy to this day.

And once again, the lunch counter is not a religious organization.




Moonhead -> RE: Islam, Women, and American Civil Rights (9/16/2010 4:44:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCord
Perhaps people will see this as a women's rights issue?

Probably, but it's hardly in the same league as infibulation or honour killings, is it?




Elisabella -> RE: Islam, Women, and American Civil Rights (9/16/2010 4:55:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

well this is in a grey area, actually.


The state outlawed Polygamy in Mormons. Or should that be overturned.

And as devils advocate, why should the state set doctrine for a lunch counter?


I think that Mormons should be able to practice polygamy. But I don't think that religion should justify pedophilia or child brides so I guess separation of church and state alone is not the best defense, at least when it comes to minors.

The state should set doctrine for a lunch counter because it's a matter of secular justice that affects everyone, whether or not they choose to follow a religion. I will fiercely defend separation of church and state because I want the church kept the fuck out of the state, I don't really care what churches/mosques/whatevers believe, and reform of Islam is the business of Islam to me, not the business of the US.

I like that line to be drawn - this is the state's business, this is the church's business, if you don't like what your church does, reform or convert.




Owner59 -> RE: Islam, Women, and American Civil Rights (9/16/2010 5:07:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xkittenx


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

But what if its just a bus driver thing and you want the darkies to sit in the back behind a sheet?

Hypothetically...


Bus driving isn't a matter of religion, dawg.

If we start allowing the government to order Muslims to alter their religious practices how long until the government takes over ALL religious practices? No. There's a reason we decided to have a separation of church and state. Many reasons, as a matter of fact.

I'm not saying its right or fair or that I agree with the practice but like I said; as long as no one is being killed or injured, I believe this is a matter best left to members of that faith to work out on their own.


If lucky doesn`t like Islam,he should convert.




TheHeretic -> RE: Islam, Women, and American Civil Rights (9/16/2010 6:23:31 PM)



Having cops enforce sexual discrimination and segregation seems very wrong to me, but, in our system, that may give us the case and the ruling that starts the ball rolling. I'd say those women should have stood right there and been arrested.




jlf1961 -> RE: Islam, Women, and American Civil Rights (9/16/2010 6:34:27 PM)

May I point out that in traditional Jewish synagogues women and men are in separate areas as well.




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