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sorry Lady P, another punishment thread - 7/19/2010 1:52:19 AM   
lally2


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but this one is directed at You guys.

having read through 'worst punishments' im left with the distinct impression, at times, that whats done is often very sadistic, either in its content or its carrying out.

so im wondering if there is just a little bit of sadistic satisfaction - i personally see nothing wrong with that, and im not saying in any particularly kinky way - just some of those punishments are pretty evil.

i know that many say that they hate to punish - but during my worst punishment i know that my Master at the time was really very sadistic and took some pleasure and pride in my submission to it.

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!
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RE: sorry Lady P, another punishment thread - 7/19/2010 2:13:30 AM   
AQuietSimpleMan


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Joined: 11/15/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2



but this one is directed at You guys.

having read through 'worst punishments' im left with the distinct impression, at times, that whats done is often very sadistic, either in its content or its carrying out.

so im wondering if there is just a little bit of sadistic satisfaction - i personally see nothing wrong with that, and im not saying in any particularly kinky way - just some of those punishments are pretty evil.

i know that many say that they hate to punish - but during my worst punishment i know that my Master at the time was really very sadistic and took some pleasure and pride in my submission to it.



I SO GET WHAT YOU ARE SAYING HERE!!!!!

And I fully agree. There is a reason I don't Punish, for one..... if I HAVE to punish then I feel I did something wrong.

If the Punishment IS Sadistic and I'm a Sadist then chances are I enjoyed punishing my submissive meaning that in being punished my submissive has pleased me... what kinda fucking message does that send.

If I Ignore her then I am punishing myself by removing her from me when I have her there for the purpose of pleasing me.

If I present a punishment that isn't Sadistic and one that has not removed her from the reason I have her in service to me in the first place..... what have I left to do?

This is why I want a relationship free of Punishment..... TO ME, IN MY OPINION...... it seems to defeat the purpose.

QSM

_____________________________

Guy Stud =Vs= Girl Slut ~~ Debate ENDED!

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(in reply to lally2)
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RE: sorry Lady P, another punishment thread - 7/19/2010 2:44:01 AM   
tiggerspoohbear


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I don't go for punishment either. And I'm lucky that my Dom agrees with this. He'd rather have a happy sub than a miserable one. OK, there's funishment but that's a whole nuther ballgame designed to tease. We're both adults and know each other places in the relationship. That's why communication, honesty and truth are so important.

If I make a mistake, then I expect to be corrected and shown how to do it right. If it's a misunderstanding, then we'll discuss it and again correct the behavior. I have no reason and never intend to be a brat, that's just not my style. I'm also not going to turn into a shrew, I'm there to make sure his life is easier, not have to deal with some carping nagging subbie. I've been told I'm "too slavish" but I consider that a compliment, not an insult. If there was a problem with that, then it wasn't mine. I did as I thought was right. I don't need myself beat black and blue to have a point made, it will just make me miserable and very unhappy.

A look of disapointment in his eyes or being told that my actions have led to his displeasure will be more than enough. I can be a lot tougher on myself than anyone else could ever be.

edited for silly typo since I shouldn't be allowed to type at 5:30am.

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RE: sorry Lady P, another punishment thread - 7/19/2010 5:23:22 AM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AQuietSimpleMan


quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2



but this one is directed at You guys.

having read through 'worst punishments' im left with the distinct impression, at times, that whats done is often very sadistic, either in its content or its carrying out.

so im wondering if there is just a little bit of sadistic satisfaction - i personally see nothing wrong with that, and im not saying in any particularly kinky way - just some of those punishments are pretty evil.

i know that many say that they hate to punish - but during my worst punishment i know that my Master at the time was really very sadistic and took some pleasure and pride in my submission to it.



I SO GET WHAT YOU ARE SAYING HERE!!!!!

And I fully agree. There is a reason I don't Punish, for one..... if I HAVE to punish then I feel I did something wrong.

If the Punishment IS Sadistic and I'm a Sadist then chances are I enjoyed punishing my submissive meaning that in being punished my submissive has pleased me... what kinda fucking message does that send.

If I Ignore her then I am punishing myself by removing her from me when I have her there for the purpose of pleasing me.

If I present a punishment that isn't Sadistic and one that has not removed her from the reason I have her in service to me in the first place..... what have I left to do?

This is why I want a relationship free of Punishment..... TO ME, IN MY OPINION...... it seems to defeat the purpose.

QSM


maybe im a bit quirky on this then - but if my Dominant is getting *some* satisfaction (and take that word in all its meanings) i see nothing wrong in that.  I DONT mean that in the sense that the Dominant looks for reasons to punish because thats theyre kink, but i really would find it odd to be honest if, when im hating the process, he isnt getting some element of satisfaction, if only in terms of knowing that they have dealt with the situation effectively and everyone moves on.

but i completely understand what youre saying there too, if the idea feels wrong to you, then it just isnt going to work anyway.

im thinking tin foil and onions here )) man that was evil! - but in order to carry that out to the bitter end there had to be a focus that made it possible for the Dominant to see her through that and not cave.  is all im saying really

< Message edited by lally2 -- 7/19/2010 5:24:44 AM >


_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to AQuietSimpleMan)
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RE: sorry Lady P, another punishment thread - 7/19/2010 6:39:08 AM   
DesFIP


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It frequently seems to me that people seize upon punishment to be sadistic beyond negotiated limits. And also to break hard limits.

Doing that will confuse the sub, making him/her feel that all sadistic play therefore is punishment since there is no difference made between the one and the other. Or cause the sub to lose trust. Neither of which are healthy for the relationship.

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RE: sorry Lady P, another punishment thread - 7/19/2010 6:42:00 AM   
abuddingdom


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These are good thoughts / opinions......I've been asking why people punish, on various boards, for the last several months. I believe that a great many have no idea why they have it in their D/s or M/s dynamic, they just assume it's one of the things which HAS to be there, and / or everyone else does it, etc and they've never given it much if any thought. I also believe that if one or both are getting off on it(in any way, not just sexually) it's not punishment, it's getting off. I don't do punishment in my present relationship, though I did very early on and I've done it in past relationships. But I, and most of the partners with whom I did it , found it too exiting and that takes it from punishment to something else. And I'm not talking funishment - I did that too , a whole lot in fact, but that's a whole different thing from real punishment.

I try to never say never, but I can't see myself wanting or needing punishment - meting out penalty for infraction - in my relationships. What I prefer(excuse me as I put on my rose-colored glasses) is to have and provide training to someone who knows the value of obedience, follow through, and simply pleasing me, and someone who's learned from past life mistakes. I'm not a perfectionist, and I'm willing to redirect(and renegotiate) though doing too much of that over time wouldn't indicate a good dynamic.

In an attempt to avoid unnecessary misinterpretation, I hasten to add that I'm not saying that everyone who uses punishment doesn't know why - I said " a great many". I'll likely always question the whys regarding those who do use punishment. Not critically, as it's not for me to judge, but I'll always wonder what the true motive is and whether some even know themselves what their true motive is.

I think this is one of those topics which will never be resolved and will always pop up here and elsewhere. I was hesitant to start a thread a few days ago, which itself was inspired by the one whch lally mentioned. In fact, I originally typed out a reply to it but realized it was bordering on hijack territory so I started my own thread, then a couple more punishment threads started. And here's another one. Some things just can't be universally summed up.

(in reply to lally2)
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RE: sorry Lady P, another punishment thread - 7/19/2010 7:44:26 AM   
lally2


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actually, im not trying to suggest for a minute that Dominants who effectively and judiciously use punishment as a means  of correction or discipline are doing it for sadistic pleasure at all.

what im trying to ascertain is what element exists in a genuine,considered and thought out corrective measure that 'helps' the Dominant to get to the end.

if its, as many say, unpleasant to punish generally, what is the thought process or processes that helps you to get there.

im talking people who are not using this for Funishment purposes, im talking genuine punishment, rarely given and thoughtfully carried out for the good of the relationship as a whole.

as much as people who dont get punishment there are those that do and are in such a relationship.

im just really curious how it works from the D side of the equation.

but thank you one and all for youre thoughts and sharing.

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to abuddingdom)
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RE: sorry Lady P, another punishment thread - 7/19/2010 10:13:00 AM   
porcelaine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

so im wondering if there is just a little bit of sadistic satisfaction - i personally see nothing wrong with that, and im not saying in any particularly kinky way - just some of those punishments are pretty evil.

i know that many say that they hate to punish - but during my worst punishment i know that my Master at the time was really very sadistic and took some pleasure and pride in my submission to it.


lally,

I had this discussion with a friend yesterday and we remarked in the similarities in our experience with sadistic men, especially emotional sadists. I pinpointed situations that led to behavior the individual had to correct, but in retrospect the correction and my response fed his kink. She was able to articulate the same.This is one of the reasons I look at the subject of punishment with a clear understanding that the reprimand may provide some element of satisfaction for him.

I will admit that if he inflicted his sadism on me severely when realigning I would probably chill out big time. I'm not a 2x4 queen and I don't need a lot of head slappage to get the point. But I think demonstrations of routine behaviors that were of a similar sort that didn't hinge upon infractions for their occurrence would have a similar effect. If I feared the unthinkable and knew it would be horrendous every time that's a huge motivator for compliance. On the other hand that fear takes me out of my obedient mindset and conditions me to restrict myself severely. The end result would create an internal numbing. I don't know how to prevent that from occurring and I'd definitely need his assistance in that regard.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to lally2)
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RE: sorry Lady P, another punishment thread - 7/19/2010 10:20:54 AM   
LadyPact


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At least we had a break for a couple of days, lally.  The question is an honest one, and you know how I feel about that.  I don't have an issue any time someone is trying to learn something as opposed to someone trying to prove how *right* they are on a topic.  The was how the punishment threads of last week were framed, which was what got under My skin more than the subject matter.

The way that I use punishment is the final tier in a correction plan.  It means that we really have come to the last resort.  No other corrective action has been able to modify the behavior and we are looking at what may be a deal breaker in the dynamic.  There is no confusion between it and funishment.  (A term I don't particularly like.)  Some kind of behavior has brought us to a fork in the road.  The submissive has to choose the path that they will follow.  It really is that serious.

My direct answer would be no.  I have never received any sadistic pleasure from administering a punishment.  I take no joy in it.  I know how bad the situation is and My mental and emotional state always circumvents the act.  Inside, I am fully aware that something has gotten so bad that the punishment may very well be signifying the end if a change does not happen.  Nobody in their right mind is happy about that.

In My opinion, any person in authority must be willing to hold any person within that authority accountable.  If you can not, you may want to look at who really has the power in the relationship.  It is one thing to say that you are in charge.  It is another thing entirely to be willing to back yourself up by your actions.  Even in those cases where "this is going to hurt Me more than it hurts you" will apply.  Consistancy is everything in this area.  It means that I will follow through on My word on the faith that someone has put in Me to be the person in control.  Not living up to that means that I have failed.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to lally2)
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RE: sorry Lady P, another punishment thread - 7/19/2010 10:33:48 AM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

so im wondering if there is just a little bit of sadistic satisfaction - i personally see nothing wrong with that, and im not saying in any particularly kinky way - just some of those punishments are pretty evil.

i know that many say that they hate to punish - but during my worst punishment i know that my Master at the time was really very sadistic and took some pleasure and pride in my submission to it.


lally,

I had this discussion with a friend yesterday and we remarked in the similarities in our experience with sadistic men, especially emotional sadists. I pinpointed situations that led to behavior the individual had to correct, but in retrospect the correction and my response fed his kink. She was able to articulate the same.This is one of the reasons I look at the subject of punishment with a clear understanding that the reprimand may provide some element of satisfaction for him.
 
in a way i would hope so, it sort of adds to the justice (or am i wierd) -   the whole 'i hate to punish my sub' is too Taken in Hand for my sensibilities - but possibly also tied in with the fact that id hate for him to do something he detests.  but clearly those who detest the idea of punishment simply dont go there.
 
have to say this all sprang from the tin foil and onions)) - just struck me as one of the most evily devised ideas ive heard of yet and im really bad at trying to climb inside the minds of people sometimes - id just love to know how that thought process processes.


I will admit that if he inflicted his sadism on me severely when realigning I would probably chill out big time. I'm not a 2x4 queen and I don't need a lot of head slappage to get the point. But I think demonstrations of routine behaviors that were of a similar sort that didn't hinge upon infractions for their occurrence would have a similar effect. If I feared the unthinkable and knew it would be horrendous every time that's a huge motivator for compliance. On the other hand that fear takes me out of my obedient mindset and conditions me to restrict myself severely. The end result would create an internal numbing. I don't know how to prevent that from occurring and I'd definitely need his assistance in that regard.

i agree that avoidance of punishment kinda detracts from 'ordinary' obedience - the dread of an action supercedes everything. one of the other reasons i didnt go back to a previous relationship was because i know what that 'action' is and i never want to risk that again.

~porcelaine



_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: sorry Lady P, another punishment thread - 7/19/2010 10:46:01 AM   
NuevaVida


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This is an interesting question.  My former owner was quite sadistic to begin with, so it makes sense to me that his punishments were of an extreme nature.  He often said he did not like punishing me, but in retrospect, I do believe he got some satisfaction out of beating me down the way he did.  I honestly believe he does not like women very much, and so those beatings gave him a sense of pleasure - admittedly or not.  In short, he enjoyed seeing me suffer for him - whether as a result of his use of me, or a result of my own actions. I believe he enjoyed the various ways he could put a woman in her place, but I see the enjoyment of punishment as a different bird.  I think he liked making me feel badly about screwing up, and used it to put me back in a box.  He didn't look for things to punish me for, as that would have made me constantly nervous.  But I think there was a genuine feeling of "You deserve this squashing" when he punished me.

I've never confirmed that with him, nor will I, but after time and distance, it's what I naturally conclude.

My current relationship does have a punishment dynamic but it is much different.  Punishments are more of a brief exclamation point to serious conversation and examination of the problem, and they are relative to whatever occurred.  I think they're more correctional tools than anything else, and while they are extremely rare with us, they are very effective and productive.  I'm not sure whether or not he derives pleasure from implementing them; I haven't asked.  But it's an interesting question, so I'll ask it of him.


_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to lally2)
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RE: sorry Lady P, another punishment thread - 7/19/2010 11:02:35 AM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

in a way i would hope so, it sort of adds to the justice (or am i wierd) -   the whole 'i hate to punish my sub' is too Taken in Hand for my sensibilities - but possibly also tied in with the fact that id hate for him to do something he detests.  but clearly those who detest the idea of punishment simply dont go there


lally,

My previous owners have never made that comment, although I've seen it echoed by others. Behavioral conditioning has many guises and while I may not have been punished in the sense that others relay, they most definitely inflicted actions to realign my thinking that ranged from the simple to very unpleasant. I suspect they realized that striking me would never be as profoundly penetrating as a mental or emotional assault. Knowing ones property allows the owner to make the best assessment when redirection is necessary. However, I was given clear instructions regarding value assignments and taught to see his actions as neither good nor bad but merely things I should welcome by right of my station. This is probably why my severe corrections were few and far between. His desire was to secure control of that area within my head that had veered away and replace the errant thought with an impression and association that would prevent future occurrence.
 
quote:

have to say this all sprang from the tin foil and onions)) - just struck me as one of the most evily devised ideas ive heard of yet and im really bad at trying to climb inside the minds of people sometimes - id just love to know how that thought process processes.


I don't take pleasure in it. I might laugh about it later but at the time of receipt I'm very saddened. Even with the ideas I have in mind about punishment overall, I would never tell him he couldn't administer it if he chose to do so. Nor do I hold to the belief of something never occurring in a dynamic down the road. I accept the risk involved and realize that it's impossible to foretell and a situation one cannot recreate to test if or how he'd go about restoring order. In the end he could condition me to accept it without a doubt.

quote:

i agree that avoidance of punishment kinda detracts from 'ordinary' obedience - the dread of an action supercedes everything. one of the other reasons i didnt go back to a previous relationship was because i know what that 'action' is and i never want to risk that again.


Punishment is the sledgehammer. It is a forcible reminder that I have defied him to the point where other methods are no longer effective or worth considering. What constitutes the blow is individual. For some it could be pain, degrading acts, verbal lashing, and so on. There are many ways to address an infraction without ever laying a hand on the other person or uttering the 'p' word either. However, I think for most there are preferred methods based on many factors that prove successful when the individual must taken in hand. I think the attraction that many have to punishment on the submissive side is fueled by masochism or an affinity with force in some respect. If the dominant was administering these things in the same capacity by right of his role without provocation we'd probably see a different response from them.

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to lally2)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: sorry Lady P, another punishment thread - 7/19/2010 11:05:26 AM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

At least we had a break for a couple of days, lally.  The question is an honest one, and you know how I feel about that.  I don't have an issue any time someone is trying to learn something as opposed to someone trying to prove how *right* they are on a topic.  The was how the punishment threads of last week were framed, which was what got under My skin more than the subject matter.

The way that I use punishment is the final tier in a correction plan.  It means that we really have come to the last resort.  No other corrective action has been able to modify the behavior and we are looking at what may be a deal breaker in the dynamic.  There is no confusion between it and funishment.  (A term I don't particularly like.)  Some kind of behavior has brought us to a fork in the road.  The submissive has to choose the path that they will follow.  It really is that serious.

My direct answer would be no.  I have never received any sadistic pleasure from administering a punishment.  I take no joy in it.  I know how bad the situation is and My mental and emotional state always circumvents the act.  Inside, I am fully aware that something has gotten so bad that the punishment may very well be signifying the end if a change does not happen.  Nobody in their right mind is happy about that.

In My opinion, any person in authority must be willing to hold any person within that authority accountable.  If you can not, you may want to look at who really has the power in the relationship.  It is one thing to say that you are in charge.  It is another thing entirely to be willing to back yourself up by your actions.  Even in those cases where "this is going to hurt Me more than it hurts you" will apply.  Consistancy is everything in this area.  It means that I will follow through on My word on the faith that someone has put in Me to be the person in control.  Not living up to that means that I have failed.



thank you Lady P.

....as a last resort to pull something from the brink - i have to admit ive never been in that situation, but then again, any insurrection is leading that way anyway - to a greater or lesser degree it is still rescuing the relationship from losing its thread, which is certainly how i view such corrective measures being utilized.

that makes perfect sense.   and in that i see how to reach that point or to almost reach that point creates a whole other situation far far removed from punitive punishment for minor infractions.  the entire mindset is far more serious and that is where youre head is at that point.

i do wonder sometimes if people get a bit muddled with punishment and discipline.   discipline doesnt seem to have the same knee jerk reaction as punishment and i think discipline is used regularly enough

to rescue a relationship from the brink is to my mind one of the most caring things a Dominant can do for a sub - being hauled back and made to consider their destructive actions and take responsibility for them. 

i agree that in the end, who is in charge here? - in a more egalitarian relationship clearly the buck stops with both.  in a TPE dynamic the buck has to stop with the Dominant and the Dominant has to create that barrier or it could all just slip off the cliff.

as always youve cleared the fog.  

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: sorry Lady P, another punishment thread - 7/19/2010 11:35:31 PM   
LPslittleclip


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i have adhd and there are times that my focus is less than optimal. as my Mistress has stated consistency is key i don't like to be punished and work hard not to receive it. my Mistress is happier when enjoying the time W/we spend together instead of being unhappy while punishing me.

_____________________________

proud to serve the awsome
LadyPact

(in reply to lally2)
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RE: sorry Lady P, another punishment thread - 7/19/2010 11:55:00 PM   
AlexandraLynch


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Upon the one occasion I have delivered a ritualized punishment, I found that I liked the ritual of it. It was nothing awful. He likes floggers, not paddles, and for mouthing my feet when I had not given him permission, he got ten swats for ten toes. (I can get off from having my toes licked, and prefer to have sex in private, and so define mouthing my feet as sexual activity, which I don't want to happen in a public BDSM setting.)

That said, sometimes he and I will be at an event and I will start keeping a running total of errors for which he gets punished. But we both know this is an "excuse" for "funishment" play, not REAL punishment. He can yellow out if it becomes seriously problematic for it. But he hasn't so far, which leads me to assume he's having some fun too.


_____________________________

I use fastreply. Don't take offence where none is meant.

Just because I'm not a bitch doesn't mean I'm not perfectly capable of making sure you'll be very sorry if you disobey.

(in reply to LPslittleclip)
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RE: sorry Lady P, another punishment thread - 7/20/2010 1:19:37 AM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AlexandraLynch

Upon the one occasion I have delivered a ritualized punishment, I found that I liked the ritual of it. It was nothing awful. He likes floggers, not paddles, and for mouthing my feet when I had not given him permission, he got ten swats for ten toes. (I can get off from having my toes licked, and prefer to have sex in private, and so define mouthing my feet as sexual activity, which I don't want to happen in a public BDSM setting.)

That said, sometimes he and I will be at an event and I will start keeping a running total of errors for which he gets punished. But we both know this is an "excuse" for "funishment" play, not REAL punishment. He can yellow out if it becomes seriously problematic for it. But he hasn't so far, which leads me to assume he's having some fun too.



obviously i dont know how that goes down, i guess if its funishment then its different.  on the very few occasions its happened to me the option of a safe word, or 'yellowing' out just hasnt been there.

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to AlexandraLynch)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: sorry Lady P, another punishment thread - 7/20/2010 1:22:55 AM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LPslittleclip

i have adhd and there are times that my focus is less than optimal. as my Mistress has stated consistency is key i don't like to be punished and work hard not to receive it. my Mistress is happier when enjoying the time W/we spend together instead of being unhappy while punishing me.


hi there littleclip,

do you mind me asking, is adhd a constant in youre life or are there times when its worse than others - have you found being LPslittleclip has helped you to focus more because you want youre time to be fun.

have to admit i dont know a great deal about adhd.  xx

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to LPslittleclip)
Profile   Post #: 17
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