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Is This Bigotry? - 6/6/2010 7:36:22 AM

Owner59

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http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/06/new.york.ground.zero.mosque/?hpt=T3

Conservatives call for Ground Zero mosque protest

Building the Ground Zero mosque is not an issue of religious freedom, but of resisting an effort to insult the victims of 9/11 and to establish a beachhead for political Islam and Islamic supremacism in New York," the group "Stop the Islamicization of America" says on its website.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kamran-pasha/the-mosque-by-ground-zero_b_578146.html

"Predictably, politicians and media blowhards are seizing on this development to cry out that "the terrorists have won." Congressman Peter King (R-NY) calls the plans for the mosque "offensive and wrong." Brian Kilmeade on Fox & Friends asked whether it was "almost taunting to put a community center right by the attack perpetrated by a group of extremist Muslims." And Steve Doocy (also on Fox) questioned whether the mosque's presence was "a great insult."

Here`s there FB page.Notice all the officers use only 1st names.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=110841015612178

I`m going to counter-protest with some buddies of mine.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

Post #: 1

RE: Is This Bigotry? - 6/6/2010 7:59:06 AM

LadyCimarron

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Yes it is bigotry.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 2

RE: Is This Bigotry? - 6/6/2010 8:04:27 AM

Elisabella

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I dunno, it depends on perspective. It could be perceived as an insult because the 9/11 attacks were caused by adherents to a fanatical version of Islam but on the other hand it shows that there is more to Islam than fanaticism and could be seen as a way to heal the wound left at ground zero.

But whatever, it's land, people are going to fight over what to do with it.

(in reply to LadyCimarron)

Post #: 3

RE: Is This Bigotry? - 6/6/2010 8:22:02 AM

maybemaybenot

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Probably. In as much as opposing erecting a statue of Willie Reed in Money, Mississipi is bigoted.
One can call it bigotry, I call it insensitive, arrogant and inciteful, on this story and my hypothetical.
Let the witchhunt begin.

mbmbn

_____________________________

Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

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Post #: 4

RE: Is This Bigotry? - 6/6/2010 8:35:06 AM

Owner59

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I think this might produce more light than smoke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7WbTv_gsx4

The protesters claim this will be a victory for bin-laden.

Just the opposite is true.

To the extent that we change our way of life and our long held traditions of religious freedom, that`s a victory for the terrorists.

If we allow our rights and freedoms to be infringed upon,the terrorists win.

They don`t define how we live,work and pray.The jihadis don`t get to veto our 1st Amendment.

Further,if we allow the few thousand jihadis to define all of the Muslim world,the terrorists win.If we allow the jihadis to define us as torturers, kidnappers and murderers of innocent civilians,the terrorists win.Especially when the primary victims of jihadis are Muslim civilians.

If I can translate into knuckle dragger: These are the good ones,folks.The moderate pro western ones.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Elisabella)

Post #: 5

RE: Is This Bigotry? - 6/6/2010 8:39:15 AM

JstAnotherSub

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Well, I guess them not wanting a mosque there is at least as nuts as cartoonists being threatened with death for showing a picture of Muhammad. So lets see, we gave in to them on that, they need to hush about this mosque.

Makes sense huh?

There are many places a mosque could be placed. Ground Zero should not be the place. It would rub salt in the wounds of everyone who loved someone who died that day, and hell it would piss me off and I did not know any of them.

Is that a bigoted outlook by me? Hellifiknow. Hellificare either.

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yep

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RE: Is This Bigotry? - 6/6/2010 8:45:10 AM

maybemaybenot

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Further,if we allow the few thousand jihadis to define all of the Muslim world,the terrorists win.If we allow the jihadis to define us as torturers, kidnappers and murderers of innocent civilians,the terrorists win.Especially when the primary victims of jihadis are Muslim civilians.

If I can translate into knuckle dragger: These are the good ones,folks.The moderate pro western ones.

I agree with you, Owner59. My problem with it comes from a humanity side. Whether right or wrong, this would be very painful for many people to see, the surviors of 9/11 and families of the fallen. The ones who want to build this mosque are aware of that fact, but want to move ahead with the project, is my understanding. I put a heavier burden on religious leaders to be sensitive to the human plight, so I do find fault with those trying to do this. Not from a bigotry view, but a sensitity POV.
mbmbn

_____________________________

Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 7

RE: Is This Bigotry? - 6/6/2010 8:55:07 AM

Lucienne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot
Whether right or wrong, this would be very painful for many people to see, the surviors of 9/11 and families of the fallen.

I think wrongness matters. If they find it very painful, it's because they're holding an entire religion responsible for the acts of a few. As a society, I think it's dangerous to indulge some irrational sensitivities. This isn't like "the widow requests that no one wear orange to the funeral because it was her husband's favorite color." It's unwise to let the grief of a few dictate policy for the many.

edit: I can spell!

(in reply to maybemaybenot)

Post #: 8

RE: Is This Bigotry? - 6/6/2010 9:14:17 AM

truckinslave

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Is it freedom of speech when we erect signage across the street with "Mohammed was not a prophet" interwoven with Mohammed cartoons?

This mosque is an affront to human decency.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 9

RE: Is This Bigotry? - 6/6/2010 9:18:48 AM

maybemaybenot

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

. If they find it very painful, it's because they're holding an entire religion responsible for the acts of a few.

How do you know this ? Have you spoken to them ?

_____________________________

Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

(in reply to Lucienne)

Post #: 10

RE: Is This Bigotry? - 6/6/2010 9:27:40 AM

Owner59

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Americans have also perished fighting for the freedoms we hold dear.Quite a few actually.We must also take care not to deminish their sacrifices

I also lost one friend in the tower attacks and know people who lost a dear one that day.But I want those responcible to be punished,not inflict collective punishment on Muslims.

We should live our ideals and be the freedom loving nation we are.We should be a world leader towards enlightenment and not get into a race to the bottom.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to Lucienne)

Post #: 11

RE: Is This Bigotry? - 6/6/2010 9:33:47 AM

LadyCimarron

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

I think wrongness matters. If they find it very painful, it's because they're holding an entire religion responsible for the acts of a few. As a society, I think it's dangerous to indulge some irrational sensitivities. This isn't like "the widow requests that no one wear orange to the funeral because it was her husband's favorite color." It's unwise to let the grief of a few dictate policy for the many.

edit: I can spell!

I would like to make a confession. Although I know that it is bigotry and I am very ashamed that I feel this way. I don't want the mosque there either. I got mad just reading the article. Words came out of me that I didn't know was in me. I am dissapointed in myself as an American and as a human being. I know that not every muslim is a terrorists, but the 911 terrorists were muslims. And it sickens my stomach to think they would want a mosque anywhere near ground zero.

But- You are right on every point. They SHOULD be able to build there. We SHOULDN'T indulge my irrational insensitivities. And its unwise to let grief dictate policy. You are 100% right on every point. So while I personally hate it to no end. (and I really hate having such bigoted feelings about it) I have to defend it. Based on religious freedom they should be allowed to do it. If we restrict the rights of one religion we restrict the rights of them all.

< Message edited by LadyCimarron -- 6/6/2010 9:51:12 AM >

(in reply to Lucienne)

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RE: Is This Bigotry? - 6/6/2010 9:46:37 AM

Owner59

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No one said it would be easy,this 200 + year experiment of our`s.Easy is usually downhill.

Also,we must`n throw the moderates under the bus.They are our only hope of reconciliation.

I hope the war mongers/neo-cons and their Muslim counterparts don`t win the day.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to LadyCimarron)

Post #: 13

RE: Is This Bigotry? - 6/6/2010 10:10:39 AM

maybemaybenot

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Again, I agree with you Owner, I will also take a lead from LadyC and admit I have long standing prejudices against many aspects the Muslim culture. < dating way before 9/11 >

I do not want to see collective punishment on the Muslims either. And asking them to move the mosque down the street or to another venue isn't punishing them, IMO. Note: I said ask, not enforce. I have trouble reconciling that good and rightoues Muslims would want to build a mosque where they knew it was insensitive and would, again whether right or wrong, cause pain to another. Reconciling the issues many Americans have with Muslims, post 9/11 is a two way street... and a big step could be taken by Muslim leaders in acknowledging the sensitivities of those who lost lives and loved ones at Ground Zero, and building their mosque somewhere else in NYC.

I wonder what the reaction would be in Mecca, if approval was given to Israel to build a synogue and cultural center there.
This is what I mean by a two way street. We know that will never happen, and we are perfectly OK with that. yet, we are not OK saying, please move your Mosque to another location. Our bigotry is not good, but another's is acceptable.

I ask this sincerely: Have the group who are building this Mosque, or any other Moderate Islamic group made any substantial donation to re building Ground Zero ? This, IMO, would be the perfect extending of the olive branch, so to speak.

mbmbn

_____________________________

Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

(in reply to LadyCimarron)

Post #: 14

RE: Is This Bigotry? - 6/6/2010 10:22:43 AM

SL4V3M4YB3

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Yeah but the US is far more tolerant than those in the middle east, apparently. Supporting the US lead wars is the only way we can ensure future religious freedom I was told.

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RE: Is This Bigotry? - 6/6/2010 10:27:13 AM

Lucienne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

. If they find it very painful, it's because they're holding an entire religion responsible for the acts of a few.

How do you know this ? Have you spoken to them ?

Um... because Islam is the only connection between the proposed mosque/community center and the 9/11 attacks? Do you seriously contest this point?

quote:

Reconciling the issues many Americans have with Muslims, post 9/11 is a two way street... and a big step could be taken by Muslim leaders in acknowledging the sensitivities of those who lost lives and loved ones at Ground Zero, and building their mosque somewhere else in NYC.

How is it a step towards reconciliation for Muslims to accept the frame by which they are collectively held responsible for 9/11? Why can't you consider that the choice of location is a big "Fuck you!" to Al Qaeda? Where the terrorists have destroyed, we shall rebuild? That there is no more appropriate location for a community center than the location of the extremists' attempt to isolate Muslims? Bin Laden wants you to believe that Muslims are the enemy. Why not listen to the Americans who seek to build and join, rather than the foreign terrorists who seek to destroy and isolate?

(in reply to maybemaybenot)

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RE: Is This Bigotry? - 6/6/2010 10:27:46 AM

Termyn8or

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FR

Before rendering an opinion, I would ask a question. Did anyone find that first article enlightening in the least bit ? I didn't read the opinions of the suits, nor watch the video. Just the first article linked to in the OP. Why do I not hear any comment about that ? I mean, you all got nothing out of it at all ? Disappointing to say the least.

And now for the opinion on my part. I don't give a shit where they put anything. That is now a piece of dirt, and being in NYC it is a very expensive piece of dirt, well it might be paved, but that is neither here nor there. Don't people understand that these issues are nothing but a smokescreen ? Don't you see what they do ? What are you teaching your children right now, where are they, what are they doing ? Is there enough oil in your car, can you pay the (eeek) cable bill, are you going to make it through the month ? Who the hell are we going to elect in 2012, the same type of assholes we've been electing for the past 70 years or so, those with no real conception of real politics, who depend on store boughten advisors to tell them what to do ?

Or is it more important to tell people where they can put certain bulidings and say what they can be used for, who is winning in sports and American Idol, your top score in the latest video game dejure ?

I am not saying me, or anyone here necessarily, but collectively we have BIG BIG problems and I now believe that we deserve them. We can't keep our eyes on the prize, our ideals or values. It's all petty bickering now. Enjoy your hell on Earth. For me I don't care if they put a mosque next door to my house, as long as they don't fuck with me. Who cares ? First the Nword, then a mural and now this. Are these really the most important issues facing us today ?

But I will agree with this much, it is stupid to put a mosque there. It is too damn expensive and would be like a megachurch. Like the Christian (supposedly) mega churches they will have to be in it for the money, they will need it. Have you tried to rent or buy commercial property in NYC lately ?

Even with my poor eyesight and improperly corrected astigmatism, I can see that people are blessed with 20/20 blindness.

T

(in reply to maybemaybenot)

Post #: 17

RE: Is This Bigotry? - 6/6/2010 10:42:43 AM

igor2003

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Fast Reply

The following is a true story:

One day I was driving down the street with a friend in the car. On the sidewalk a black gentleman was walking, minding his own business. My passenger muttered something about, “that fucking n____.” I asked him, “What did he ever do to you?”. He said, “Nothing, but I once had a friend that was killed by a fucking n____. Just walked up and shot him in the face.” So I asked the guy, “What if your friend had been killed by a white guy…would you then hate all white people?? He said, “But he wasn’t killed by a white guy. He was killed by a fucking n___!”

Nearly every religion, if it has been around for any length of time, has its share of extremists. Usually the extremist groups are not militant, but some are.

That being said, if the acts of 9/ll had been committed by an extremist branch of, say, the Methodist, LDS, or Catholic church, and the main body of that religion then wanted to build a community center and church at the location of the future mosque, would there now be the same outcry towards them that there is against the people of Islam wanting to build their mosque? I seriously doubt it.

If you hate the people that were and are responsible for 9/11, that is fine…hate them with a passion! But don’t hate people simply because they are the same religion or race. You might just as well hate everyone that eats the same kind of food or breathes the same air.

If we allow our hate to be unreasonable…that is, hating without a reason to hate…then the perpetrators of 9/11 have won. That makes you just like them except that your hate is directed differently..

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(in reply to Termyn8or)

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RE: Is This Bigotry? - 6/6/2010 10:46:58 AM

maybemaybenot

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

Um... because Islam is the only connection between the proposed mosque/community center and the 9/11 attacks? Do you seriously contest this point?

[
How is it a step towards reconciliation for Muslims to accept the frame by which they are collectively held responsible for 9/11? Why can't you consider that the choice of location is a big "Fuck you!" to Al Qaeda? Where the terrorists have destroyed, we shall rebuild? That there is no more appropriate location for a community center than the location of the extremists' attempt to isolate Muslims? Bin Laden wants you to believe that Muslims are the enemy. Why not listen to the Americans who seek to build and join, rather than the foreign terrorists who seek to destroy and isolate?

It does not automatically follow that the victims/survivors or people who disagree with the mosque ebing at Ground Zero hold the entire Muslim religion at fault. So, yes, I seriously contest that point, unless you can show me proof that that is the reason all who oppose base their opposition on.

* I * can consider that. I did not suffer any personal loss in the 9/11 attack, but I can also empathize with those who did.
Do you really believe that there is no more appropriate place than that for this mosque ? Because in your opinion it is a political statement ? It is a religious house, first and foremeost. No one is going to look at that mosque and see a political statement, they will see a mosque, because that is what it is. And don't get me wrong, that is fine, but don't try and piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

I don't think we will come close to seeing this issue evenly. You are unwilling to look at the POV of the victims, surviors and loved ones. You are willing to minimizes any effect it may have on them and see only how the side of the Muslims. I think it's quite nice they want to show a big FU to the extremists. I don't belive that has to come at the expense of a large population of NYC's grief. And while building this Mosque is indeed a FU to BinLaden, it is also self serving and self promoting, so it is not being done solely as political statement.

mbmbn

edited for clarification

< Message edited by maybemaybenot -- 6/6/2010 10:51:21 AM >

_____________________________

Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

(in reply to Lucienne)

Post #: 19

RE: Is This Bigotry? - 6/6/2010 10:56:07 AM

NewOCDaddy

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No, its not.

(in reply to maybemaybenot)

Post #: 20

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