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Doctor Doctor Give me a CLUE! - 5/6/2010 11:28:39 PM   
SailingBum


Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline 		This is a update to my previous post.  Shelia is my doc.


http://www.collarchat.com/m_2988027/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#2988027

So I went to my primary care doc today.  She said the same thing Simvastain will not cause heart issues.  It has been 6  months since I did the research so I couldn't remember exactly what I had read.  I looked it up again and burned a letter off to her.  The point I am making.  We need to do our own research so we can make "informed decisions".

Sheila,

I remember asking the heart doc a couple of times if the drugs I was taking could be the cause of my heart issue.  Dr Dan assured me that the drugs were not the problem.  After quite a few tests including wearing a heart monitor for 30 days he could not find any heart issues.  I'm guessing  at least 4 heart doctors reviewed my case and none of them verbalize to me that it might be the drugs that were prescribed to me. 

After 8 months of doctors unable to trouble shoot my heart problem, I did my research and 5 minutes later I discovered this "Cardiovascular side effects including angina have been reported in as many as 3.1% of Simvastain treated patients"  Imagine my surprise that 4 doctors missed/ failed to inform me that the drugs I was talking "might" be the cause of my heart issues when it 5 minutes I at least had a starting point.

Dr Dan was unconvinced that the Simvastatin or caffeine could be the problem maybe he slept though that class.  My heart issues cleared up after I stopped taking the drug.  Since then I have spoken to numerous ppl including 2 doctors that have experienced that very same side effect.

It is apparent to me that some of the doctors need to be kept more up to date regarding drug interactions and side effects.

Hope to see you on the lake this summer.  <her and I race the same course on different boats>  Brian


I was quite sure about the heart issues and Simvastatin.  FYI

CardiovascularThe Scandinavian Simvastatin Survival Study (4S) demonstrated a 30% reduction in total mortality in patients followed for a median of 5.4 years and a 42% decrease in death from coronary heart disease compared to placebo. Simvastatin reduced the risk of major coronary events by 34%, hospital verified nonfatal myocardial infarction by 37%, and the need for coronary artery bypass graft or angioplasty by 37%, all significant compared to placebo.

Cardiovascular side effects including angina have been reported in as many as 3.1% of treated patients. In addition, study data indicates that total mortality is decreased in patients with hyperlipidemia and coronary heart disease using simvastatin.

Read more: http://www.drugs.com/sfx/zocor-side-effects.html#ixzz0nDQGlxJy


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RE: Doctor Doctor Give me a CLUE! - 5/7/2010 5:40:29 AM   
windchymes


Posts: 9410
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline 		I've worked around and with a lot of doctors in my career, and there are none worse than those who think they know everything, won't open their minds to other opinions and possibilities, and won't even consider that they might have been wrong about something.  Worst of all, when you can show them that they may have been wrong but they still argue that they're right.  And there are a lot of them out there. 

This is one reason that I'm predicting a shift from Western Medicine back to some of the "old" ways, with folks starting to seek out naturopathic, homeopathic, massage, acupuncture, etc. in the years to come.    

Good job! :)



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RE: Doctor Doctor Give me a CLUE! - 5/7/2010 5:47:29 AM   
DarkSteven


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Status: offline 		I treat doctors like intelligent people who have a lot to contribute and can answer my questions.  But I'm in charge of my own health, and try to dictate my own terms.

I had bead results before with a doc that tried to get me to take Lipitor. Keep in mind that doctors are trained to find drugs and other quick treatments to address symptoms, not to get the entire human organism healthy.


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RE: Doctor Doctor Give me a CLUE! - 5/7/2010 7:48:31 AM   
DomMeinCT


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quote:

After 8 months of doctors unable to trouble shoot my heart problem, I did my research and 5 minutes later I discovered this "Cardiovascular side effects including angina have been reported in as many as 3.1% of Simvastain treated patients"  Imagine my surprise that 4 doctors missed/ failed to inform me that the drugs I was talking "might" be the cause of my heart issues when it 5 minutes I at least had a starting point.


Statistically, for 3.1% of a population to have a side effect seems like a pretty large number.  Maybe Dr. Dan and Sheila have had the good fortune that they've only prescribed it to the other 96.9%. 

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RE: Doctor Doctor Give me a CLUE! - 5/7/2010 7:51:37 AM   
SweetDommes


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Status: offline 		That is one thing that I'll say for the doc that I work with ... for all that I think he's a pompous, arrogent asshat, he does try to work with the guys to find them meds that work for them without causing problematic side effects.

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RE: Doctor Doctor Give me a CLUE! - 5/7/2010 12:12:16 PM   
angelikaJ


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I treat doctors like intelligent people who have a lot to contribute and can answer my questions.  But I'm in charge of my own health, and try to dictate my own terms.

I had bead results before with a doc that tried to get me to take Lipitor. Keep in mind that doctors are trained to find drugs and other quick treatments to address symptoms, not to get the entire human organism healthy.



DS

For some odd reason when one is diabetic, MDs like to have their patients on statins. It seems we tend to live longer that way.

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RE: Doctor Doctor Give me a CLUE! - 5/7/2010 4:37:27 PM   
peppermint


Posts: 5175
Joined: 10/18/2005
From: Montana
Status: offline 		I learned the hard way that doctors are not always right.  Late husband was given a new wonder drug for his heart and his heart hadn't worked so well in 14 years.  However, shortly after he had a period when he needed 3 blood transfusions in a week for blood he was losing and no one could discover where it was going.  Then his knees swelled up and he couldn't walk.  Then his vision went.  Last, his kidneys shut down.  The ER doctor informed me that when he was put on the new wonder drug he should have stopped taking one of his other drugs.  Anyway, his primary care doctor saw fit to release him from the hospital after 3 days as he did well as long as he was on IV fluids.  He died the next day in the ER of a different hospital.  On top of everything his primary care physician refused to sign the death certificate which made it impossible to bury him for 10 days as the county coroner had to get involved. 

When Gary was ill 2 months ago I fought like hell to keep them from releasing him when I felt he wasn't stable.  They finally ganged up on me bringing 5 people in the room to convince me that Gary was going to a nursing home whether I liked it or not.  At the time he was sicker than when I'd taken him to the hospital in the first place.  Four days later he was back in hospital where....thankfully, they transferred him to a REAL hospital with REAL doctors who actually fixed what was wrong with him. 

Some of the problems I've had seen seem to come from the insurance companies themselves.  Apparently the hospitals are only given X amount of dollars for a specific diagnosis.  Whether the patient stays in hospital for 3 days or 7 days, the hospital gets the same amount of dollars.  So they release patients early.  In cases such as my husband and Gary, they were both back in hospital within a day or so. Once with my husband I had him readmitted in 3 hours.   The hospital can then start the billing process again as they were just admitted.  I don't know for sure if this is the way things work, however, several health care people have told me this is what happens all too often. 

You can fight early release, at least for awhile using the social workers at the hospital.  You can also contact your insurance company and get them involved. 

Anyway, thank you for this thread.  It's a reminder to everyone that they have a duty to double check what the doctors say and make informed decisions of their own. 

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RE: Doctor Doctor Give me a CLUE! - 5/7/2010 4:45:03 PM   
DarkSteven


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Joined: 5/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

For some odd reason when one is diabetic, MDs like to have their patients on statins. It seems we tend to live longer that way.


I doubt it.

Statins lower cholesterol.  In my family, there is a history of high cholesterol levels and no incidence of heart attacks.  Until me, there was no history of diabetes either.

I'll take my chance of a possibility of heart issues versus the certainty of liver issues. 


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RE: Doctor Doctor Give me a CLUE! - 5/7/2010 5:24:55 PM   
peppermint


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Joined: 10/18/2005
From: Montana
Status: offline 		Statins can also cause restless leg syndrome to be worse.  It was Lipitor that was causing the problem.  He's been great since he's off Lipitor and on another statin.  

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RE: Doctor Doctor Give me a CLUE! - 5/7/2010 6:43:04 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		Statins do all sorts of horrible things to the body; I will never, never, take one again.

Steven nailed it; high cholesterol means nothing. The only benefit one can gain from a statin, is the lowering of inflammation, which can be achieved in other ways.

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RE: Doctor Doctor Give me a CLUE! - 5/9/2010 10:13:19 AM   
SailingBum


Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I treat doctors like intelligent people who have a lot to contribute and can answer my questions.  But I'm in charge of my own health, and try to dictate my own terms.

I had bead results before with a doc that tried to get me to take Lipitor. Keep in mind that doctors are trained to find drugs and other quick treatments to address symptoms, not to get the entire human organism healthy.



That was partly my reason for the post.  I view my doc the same way I view my accountant, Lawyer, or any other person that I pay to advise me.  The advice they give me is only one of the factors I use in my decision making process. 

Keep in my the 3 rd leading cause of death in the US is doctor error.  Something to think about the next time your in the hospital.

BadOne


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RE: Doctor Doctor Give me a CLUE! - 5/10/2010 5:31:28 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Doctors are never the first people to ask about drug interactions. Pharmacists are. But if you go to a Walmart where there's a different person there each time, you won't get the needed warnings. You need to go to a small pharmacy where the pharmacist runs the place and knows his clientele and cares about them. Then you will be warned about drug interactions and side effects.

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RE: Doctor Doctor Give me a CLUE! - 5/10/2010 6:21:02 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		My Dad is dead now, but would be dead sooner if he had just followed doctor's orders without question. He refused quite a few drugs. The doc wanted to put him on something and he said hell no, that's a calcium blocker. He found out all about MAO inhibitors and all this stuff. We've had a PDR for years and then he discovered the internet at about 60 years old.

At one point they asked him "How do you know all this" and he replied "Well there is such a thing as the internet". His main drug was a vasodilator as he had had a stroke. At one point the bottle was mismarked, tripling the dosage ! Even at the current dosage he had to cut it down. He monitored his own BP and sometimes cut the pills in half. Whatever it was he was out of it, I remember him driving somewhere and trying to pass another car and I had to yell at him "Dad, what the fuck are you doing, this lane ends right there !". And this was not something new, it had been that way for decades. Towards the end we had to do a key-ectomy on him, as he was a danger on the roads. How much of that was attributable to drugs I don't know.

But for some reason in his 60s he had the heart of a 20 year old. His problem was the pipes. The spread between diastolic and systolic was about 45 points. The cause of death eventually was listed as something totally unrelated, and I don't really trust that so much.

So basically I agree with you even more than you. With health issues no matter how much money or insurance you have, the primary responsibility is your's. Incompetence is rampant in all fields. Remember the word professional means ONLY that you get paid. It does not imply anything else. And now, the license on the wall doesn't mean much either. Trust noone with your health.

T

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RE: Doctor Doctor Give me a CLUE! - 5/10/2010 6:43:08 AM   
sirsholly


Posts: 42360
Joined: 9/7/2007
From: Quietville
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Doctors are never the first people to ask about drug interactions. Pharmacists are. But if you go to a Walmart where there's a different person there each time, you won't get the needed warnings. You need to go to a small pharmacy where the pharmacist runs the place and knows his clientele and cares about them. Then you will be warned about drug interactions and side effects.


Many yrs ago i had a bladder infection that hit my kidneys. I was on a heavy hitting anti-biotic which worked for a while, but the infection returned within a week or two. I was on my third prescription, taking the highest dose possible and getting pretty scared, because the next step was a biopsy.
When i had the third rx filled the pharmacist was alarmed at the dose and duration. He knew me a little and knew i was a vitamin taker because i always bought them there. Finally he had the answer that the doctor missed...vitamin B will counteract the anti-biotic.

No one in Walmart would have picked up on this. It is so important to stay with one small pharmacy where the pharmacist has the time to know the customers. They are less convenient and do not spit out the prescriptions as fast as Walmart, but worth the wait.


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RE: Doctor Doctor Give me a CLUE! - 5/10/2010 7:06:30 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		Agreed. But it is hard to find that little hole in the wall type pharmacy these days. Walk in "Hiya George", throw the scrips down. He might say "Hey, you can't take this with that". But then if you even get to that point, alot of people have more than one doctor. Some drugs are cheaper at one place than another, so you might not get them all at one place.

It's like going to the mechanic because your car won't run. Ask him when you get the estimate, say two grand, what it needs. If he gave you an answer like "It needs two grand" you wouldn't accept that would you ? But so many people follow blindly. That might be OK if the caregiver is really competent, but you can't count on it.

T

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RE: Doctor Doctor Give me a CLUE! - 5/10/2010 7:43:51 AM   
sirsholly


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From: Quietville
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Agreed. But it is hard to find that little hole in the wall type pharmacy these days. Walk in "Hiya George", throw the scrips down. He might say "Hey, you can't take this with that". But then if you even get to that point, alot of people have more than one doctor. Some drugs are cheaper at one place than another, so you might not get them all at one place.


thats a valid point Term...but the cost evens out in the end.  Perhaps someone is taking prescription strength Ibuprofen from their Ortho for joint pain and getting it filled at Walmart.
Their PCP is giving them an anti-ulcer med such as Prilosec for complaints of an upset stomach and this is being filled at Walgreens.
The patient is paying for two prescriptions. If they had the same pharmacist there is little doubt he/she would see that the Ibuprofen is probably causing the stomach issues and possibly eliminating the need for the Prilosec.


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