Jealousy. (Full Version)

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SirAldric -> Jealousy. (4/10/2010 2:33:50 AM)

I was reading a slave's profile and noticed how she struggled with her jealousy in the moment her Master indicated that he wanted other female slaves to get involved in their relation. That hurdle seemed to be too high, the relation ended and the slave was left with a lot of feelings of guilt; she felt she was to blame.

I know many people have different opinions about a complicated subject like this (which I respect of course); I just wanted to share my opinion on this issue with you.

To my personal opinion there are some background processes one needs to take into account when looking at something as complex as jealousy within M/s (or D/s) relationships:

1. Personally I have a clear and straight forward opinion regarding M/s relations: a Master is always responsible for anything that happens within or to that relation. That seems maybe an unfair burden to bear, but of all men a true Master should and must bear it. The other side of that same coin: a Master gets a lot in return, never underestimate the value of the submissive gift.

2. Jealousy is one of the strongest emotions, deeply embedded in one's personality. Telling people not to be jealous, 'training' or forcing them to get rid of it, is just fooling yourself. It can't be done that simple as Freud found out himself a long time ago. For any Master jealousy should be serious business; you don't mess around with jealousy, not while you as Master yourself are responsible for the M/s relation you started..

3. Making a commitment as Master is sacred; there are no excuses as Master for breaking your own commitments, not if you want to look in the mirror again.. Not if you want to look an other Master in the eye..

So back to jealousy, looking to it from the above perspective ..

If you as Master encounter a slave (rl, online or ldr), both are interested to start a long-term relation, but you get the impression that said slave is quite jealous (and it is your task as Master anyway to figure that out before going further..) then you as Master have to move carefully and watch your steps. If you want that slave, make a commitment not to involve other women, then you are bound as Master to keep your own commitment.

If you want that slave, but like to keep the option for other women open, then this has to be crystal clear from the start (your responsibility as Master that there is no misunderstanding..).

As Master you DON'T start a relation, take the submissive honey first and blame her afterward for not being 'willing' to overcome her jealously feelings. Doing so would reflect bad on you as Master since you made the mess yourself, failed as Master from the start already, neglected the fact that you are responsible first and foremost, blamed the other and left it to the other to live further with that. That would be 'Master' unworthy behavior..

As always, to my personal opinion,

SA



Aileen1968 -> RE: Jealousy. (4/10/2010 4:05:00 AM)

We are monogamous. He can't share and I can't either. We have known that from day one of our relationship.

On a side note.... none of that makes him or I "true" and my submission is not a gift.
There is nothing sacred about either of us. We are just two people doing our best to have a healthy, functional relationship. It just happens to also involve some extra spice.
Once people fall into the mindset that there is something unique or special about a bdsm relationship above and beyond a vanilla one, then it becomes easy to make excuses for fuck ups.



DarkSteven -> RE: Jealousy. (4/10/2010 4:08:05 AM)

SA, you seem to have made the assumption that the relation was entered upon as a monogamous one, and then the M type decided to change it to poly.  I once had a relationship blow up on me where I had an existing service sub relationship that took perhaps five hours a week.  When I added a submissive to that existing relationship, the new (full) sub was unable to get past her feelings of jealousy even though she had accepted it initially, and it ended up destroying the whole relationship eventually.

I'm not sure why you made your hypothetical situation gender specific...

Please note that there is also a forum here dedicated to poly relationships.  You may want to skim through it.



JhonDean -> RE: Jealousy. (4/10/2010 5:26:35 AM)

A different prospective where jealousy is concerned.
When Jealousy befell me, it was an indulgence in selfishness, the product of possessiveness and uncertainty. Insecurity and inexperience played a roll and as I began to recognize how these character flaws altered and changed my thinking and behaviors I refused to allow them to influence me. In fact, today, I don’t allow jealousy into my thinking at all.



masmiss -> RE: Jealousy. (4/10/2010 5:58:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JhonDean

A different prospective where jealousy is concerned.
When Jealousy befell me, it was an indulgence in selfishness, the product of possessiveness and uncertainty. Insecurity and inexperience played a roll and as I began to recognize how these character flaws altered and changed my thinking and behaviors I refused to allow them to influence me. In fact, today, I don’t allow jealousy into my thinking at all.



I have to go along with this perspective, for the most part.  To say that jealousy is "deeply embedded in one's personality" is just an excuse to not be responsible for one's behavior.  As someone who has kicked back on the therapist's couch on and off through the years I've learned that one may not be able to control how one feels but one certainly can control how one reacts to those feelings.  Childhood events have much to do with adult feelings and reactions.  Examining negative feelings when they occur and not allowing them to poison a relationship - any relationship - is critical for the health of that relationship whether it's vanilla, bdsm, family, work, etc.  Communication is key.

Like DarkSteven I'm also curious as to why you made your example gender specific. Male subs/slaves are certainly capable of jealousy, no?



DesFIP -> RE: Jealousy. (4/10/2010 6:39:43 AM)

In a situation such as that I would need to know if she was told upfront that he would have others. Because if he waited until after she was collared to spring it on her, then he's a manipulative ass. Poly has to be discussed ahead of time because many of us simply aren't interested. And bait and switch is never an honorable thing to do.

But a relationship takes two people to make it work. It takes only one to break it.




RealSub58 -> RE: Jealousy. (4/10/2010 8:08:08 AM)

I did not read the OP as being gender specific or from an assumption of monogamy.

And I do believe that jealously is imbedded, as are emotions like betrayal, abandonment, within the first 5-8 yrs of a child's life.

What most do not do, as is true of me, know how to control the reactions to some emotions and thus it becomes a task through out life to learn ....
I control my own feelings....
Other people's actions and words CANNOT controll my feelings. 
I Choose how I respond/react.
Only I am the secret to MY happiness. NOT others.

I was under the greatest assumption, because it was stated openly and clearly, understood by me that one relationship I was in was to be monogamous but open to play with the other knowing all...most him playing with others and telling me.  I was told when to play with others.

He deceived me.  I felt betrayed and when I realized it was a behaviour that would not stop, jealousy creeped in and finally I had to stop the relationship because my own emotional well being was in peril.   He took NO responsibililty except to say...finally after we were through, "that's just who I am."  That I found out.

Deception is everywhere and full disclosure of POTENTIAL DESIRES should be stated strAight up...I would add that to the OP's message.




reynardfox -> RE: Jealousy. (4/10/2010 8:18:09 AM)

When you get a bit more experience you will find out a great big truth.
People are always jealous, of anything and everything, it's an inetgral part of the human pysche and it can't possiby be done away with .
Anyone can tell you that. That's why, by and large, people don't like each other very much.
We can all have fantasies, the idea that we know all about people, for example.
A woman is a dangerous big cat like any other, you can earn the trust of one and experience great pleasure as a result, but you damage that trust and she will damage you. I kid you not. Honesty and loyalty and communication are the only ways.  Listen carefully to a woman or indeed a submissive male, you only get one warning. If they are not happy, think carefully about what you are doing.



Wolf2Bear -> RE: Jealousy. (4/10/2010 9:41:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirAldric

2. Jealousy is one of the strongest emotions, deeply embedded in one's personality. Telling people not to be jealous, 'training' or forcing them to get rid of it, is just fooling yourself. It can't be done that simple as Freud found out himself a long time ago. For any Master jealousy should be serious business; you don't mess around with jealousy, not while you as Master yourself are responsible for the M/s relation you started..


So back to jealousy, looking to it from the above perspective ..

If you as Master encounter a slave (rl, online or ldr), both are interested to start a long-term relation, but you get the impression that said slave is quite jealous (and it is your task as Master anyway to figure that out before going further..) then you as Master have to move carefully and watch your steps. If you want that slave, make a commitment not to involve other women, then you are bound as Master to keep your own commitment.

If you want that slave, but like to keep the option for other women open, then this has to be crystal clear from the start (your responsibility as Master that there is no misunderstanding..).

As Master you DON'T start a relation, take the submissive honey first and blame her afterward for not being 'willing' to overcome her jealously feelings. Doing so would reflect bad on you as Master since you made the mess yourself, failed as Master from the start already, neglected the fact that you are responsible first and foremost, blamed the other and left it to the other to live further with that. That would be 'Master' unworthy behavior..

As always, to my personal opinion,

SA



As I see it, yes jealousy is a strong emotion yet it is a reactionary one. Jealousy in a relationship, for the most part, stems from insecurity, self esteem issuse and/or other factors. A person can not blame others for feeling jealous, that comes from within and if I was to enter into a relationship where my dom or sub has jealousy issues, that would have to be dealt with before we can move forward. As I see it (me as a person and not the role) I am primarily responsible for my actions and my emotions and my partner is responsible for theirs. When we have agreed to enter into a relationship, then I do take some responsibilty but only to help them with their coping skills to overcome their jealousy issus. Jealoust can be erased in a person, it can be made powerless by me assuring my sub/slave that they are important to tme through me actions and my words - after that it is still up to them to either accept and believe that or not.


eta: often jealousy is easily confused with envy which are two separate emotional reations



alhamdullilah -> RE: Jealousy. (4/10/2010 10:55:54 AM)

While I agree that jealousy may be borne of insecurity and low self-esteem, I also believe that it is "imbedded". There are a lot of elements of human character that are innate that we must struggle to control. I think is jealousy is no different in that respect.

However, jealousy is one of the MOST horrendous of emotions to bear, in my opinion. And because it stems from security and self-esteem issues, it requires action and attention from both parties. Even then, if the ultimate conclusion is that one party live with it, hoping and endeavoring to control his/her reaction to the emotion - an internal strife that is akin to pain and suffering of a mental illness, if you ask me - chances are, it isn't going to work out. If the party expected to learn to live with it (and there certainly is a sense of guilt that drives one to feel like a failure if unable to) has any sense of self-preservation, that existence is bound to become unbearable. Can he or she learn to curb the unwanted emotion? I think once it's there, if not addressed and resolved another way, the jealous party has to almost love their partner less in order not to feel jealousy. That is highly contestable, I realize, but it is what I think.

Because there is guilt, an ideal that says one should not be jealous, the submissive can agree wholeheartedly going in and find that the reality down the road just isn't as anticipated. Who is to blame then? People aren't perfect and emotions aren't black and white. There are circumstances under which jealousy has value; that's why it's innate. We complicate our existence, though, beyond the capacity of our emotions sometimes. I don't think poly relationships are impossible, but I think they have to be pretty darn near perfect to work, emphasizing on the security felt by the submissive because I think that's always imperative in order for the submissive to be wholly relinquished and focused on the pleasure of the one he/she serves. When it comes to situations where jealousy may come into play, I think the demand for security and trust is that much higher.

Welcome to the message boards, SirAldric! :)

-llilah



dreamerdreaming -> RE: Jealousy. (4/10/2010 11:32:51 AM)

OP, you could have saved yourself a lot of keystrokes by just saying that bait-and-switch is wrong, and that knowing yourself well is necessary in order to be able to find a partner whose needs and desires fit well with your own.






CreativeDominant -> RE: Jealousy. (4/10/2010 12:00:52 PM)

I am going to say what others have said...bait and switch is wrong.  That is not to say that a person cannot change what they want as the relationship goes on.  A person who entered into a relationship promising monogamy but now wants poly...it can happen just as we've seen it happen to people who've come on here who entered into a relationship weeks/months/years ago as a vanilla and who have found that they crave D/s and/or BDSM.  The fact that this happens, while a problem in terms of being a distinct life-changing course of action, is not so much a problem as not communicating it to your partner OR making your partner feel that they HAVE to go along with it.  No, they don't.  They have a right to how they want to live.  If they choose to try and follow your path, hurray for them...but it is not required of them and they should not be made to feel that way.

While we are on the subject of emotions, I will also note what I have been told by my therapist.  There are some emotions that seem to be innate and some that are learned.  The belief that you alone are responsible for your emotions is setting an undue burden on yourself, just as laying the responsibility for your emotions on another is an undue burden on them.  Our emotions are often brought on by our own thoughts or deeds but it is equally true that another's words or actions can provoke our emotions.  What we are solely responsible for is how we handle those emotions and to what level we allow them to reach.  e.g....if bear playfully nuzzles Me and I become white-hot angry and react like some radical gayhater/basher and beat him to a pulp, both my emotional response and my reaction to that emotion are out of proportion to bear's emotion-provoking action.



leadership527 -> RE: Jealousy. (4/10/2010 12:20:06 PM)

OK, with this one I'm going to be very explicit about my disclaimer. This is my opinions, my marriage, my life. These opinions are not meant to be "shoulds" for anyone else. It's just my experience.

I'm forced to disagree with this. While I absolutely agree that I bear TOTAL responsibility for the success or failure of my marriage, I could never conceive of it as a M/s relationship if things like "jealousy" were in play. In my mind, "jealousy" is not a slave emotion. It implies a claim that just doesn't exist in my concept of M/s. Carol is my property, not my lover, not my wife, not my friend.

Let me be clear, Carol and I are not kinky and we are monogamous by nature. We don't swing or any other such thing. So these "boundaries" are very real for her. All that being said, I fully expect Carol to have sex with who I tell her to (and yes, I actively toy with that concept although the right situation needs to present itself). I also fully expect to have sex with whomever I wish. It is MY decision who is or is not invited into our marriage... and yes again, I have actively toyed with the idea of adding a 3rd. And, for that matter, I have semi-added a 3rd in the form of an online slave. It is MY decision not only who I love, but who Carol loves. And all of this is changing the rules on Carol after the fact. We married 15 years ago with the full normal expectation of a life long exclusive and monogamous relationship.

Much more importantly, if I could not successfully command Carol to let go of her jealousy and embrace this new person with love and openness then I would not be able to call Carol my slave. I DID in fact give that command and it fully succeeded. This is not a hypothetical situation for us.

I would completely agree with you if we were talking about submissives. But you mentioned a SLAVE's profile and the rules change there in my mind. As carol once said, "99% is an awful lot, but there is a world of difference between 99% and 100%." In my own head, when I say TPE, the T is real. I am ill-inclined to say "total, except for this, that and the other thing and whatever else may come up down the road".

That's how I conceive of our master/slave dynamic. Everyone else's ideas are, of course, their own.



dreamerdreaming -> RE: Jealousy. (4/10/2010 12:41:23 PM)

~threadjack~

So Leadership, if you wanted to add a realtime 3rd, and it turned out that Carol wasn't okay with it after all, what would happen?


(Edited for clarification)



leadership527 -> RE: Jealousy. (4/10/2010 12:47:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamerdreaming
So Leadership, if you wanted to add a realtime 3rd, and it turned out that Carol wasn't okay with it after all, what would happen?
I would realize that she is not my slave and therefor I shouldn't treat her as one. She would revert to my submissive wife where she very much WOULD get a vote in such decisions. That outcome is certainly possible given the nature of what we are talking about here. But honestly, I think we have gone way too far for that now. Only a real test, of course, would determine fact from fiction here.



lovingpet -> RE: Jealousy. (4/10/2010 1:09:04 PM)

GET OFF THE LEDGE AND PLEASE DON'T JUMP JEFF!!!!!!!!!!  LOL

I have to agree with Jeff though.  I know (potential ledge jumping going on here too).  We are talking about property here.  That's what a slave is.  Now to be fair, she is human property and, therefore, has emotions and has them regardless of her slave status.  I have had jealousy rear its ugly head.  The thing is, though, there's this thing called trust between us.  The root of jealousy is at least some degree of a lack of trust.  It may be further entrenched in such things as insecurity, low self esteem, and even in past history where trust was broken.  For me, it was insecurity.  As part of the whole, however, it meant that I didn't trust that he meant what he said and that he could mean those things about me.  His track record has taught me otherwise, however.  I have learned to trust him even if I don't necessarily believe what he says applies to me.  He believes they do.  That's all that matters and that is where I derive the ability to take my next step with him in those moments.

Some people are strictly wired for monogamy.  That is fine.  Chances are, though, that a good master will know this about his/her property.  My partner would never change the rules on something that he knew was just how I'm put together at the core.  I am not wired for monogamy, so the example falls flat in that instance.  On the same par would be telling me I could no longer do humanitarian work.  I would wither and die in spirit very quickly.  He knows that.  He would never, ever ask it of me in the first place.  I trust him to know me deeply and know what will enhance me, break me, heal me, or even destroy me and to use great care and wisdom in the use of that knowledge.  THAT is trust.

lovingpet



leadership527 -> RE: Jealousy. (4/10/2010 1:35:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet
GET OFF THE LEDGE AND PLEASE DON'T JUMP JEFF!!!!!!!!!!  LOL

*laughs* Too late. I think I already plummeted off this particular ledge. I find that whole look before you leap thing to be terribly tedious.

I have to agree with Jeff though.  I know (potential ledge jumping going on here too).  We are talking about property here.  That's what a slave is.  Now to be fair, she is human property and, therefore, has emotions and has them regardless of her slave status.
*nods* And Carol certainly has her emotions also. But just as LP posted in a recent thread, I expect her to get those emotions in line with my desires when I tell her to.

The thing is, though, there's this thing called trust between us.  The root of jealousy is at least some degree of a lack of trust.  It may be further entrenched in such things as insecurity, low self esteem, and even in past history where trust was broken.  For me, it was insecurity.  As part of the whole, however, it meant that I didn't trust that he meant what he said and that he could mean those things about me.  His track record has taught me otherwise, however.  I have learned to trust him even if I don't necessarily believe what he says applies to me.  He believes they do.  That's all that matters and that is where I derive the ability to take my next step with him in those moments.
I agree. This is about trust. Does Carol or does she not trust me to lead our marriage in a way which is beneficial to her... even when her own senses tell her "DANGER! RUN AWAY!"

Some people are strictly wired for monogamy.  That is fine.  Chances are, though, that a good master will know this about his/her property.  My partner would never change the rules on something that he knew was just how I'm put together at the core.  I am not wired for monogamy, so the example falls flat in that instance.  On the same par would be telling me I could no longer do humanitarian work.  I would wither and die in spirit very quickly.  He knows that.  He would never, ever ask it of me in the first place.
And I agree with this also. Above all else, I would not break Carol. Although I am forced to point out that you may well have much deeper trust and security 15 years from now (the length of our marriage) than you do now... I certainly hope so anyway. At that point, how you are "wired" may be not what you think it is now.

In the end, I would never harm Carol and so I would not do something which was bad for her. That being said, there are people on this board who have built relationships I very much admire and respect. They have taken the whole TPE thing and made it a reality, not pretty words. In their cases, the word "slave" has real meaning. MercnBeth, KnightofMysts, and LadyPact (and, of course, their various partners) come to mind although I'm sure there are more. I choose not to water down their accomplishments simply to make a catchy phrase like "M/s" fit my reality. I'd rather call a spade a spade than devalue what they have achieved.



LadyPact -> RE: Jealousy. (4/11/2010 4:37:50 AM)

A quick side note.  I appreciated your comments, Jeff.  Thank you.

Oddly enough, when I introduce Myself to others who are involved in wiitwd, I tell them right off the bat that there are two things that they should know.  The first is that I'm poly.  The second is that when I say sadist, I mean it.  This allows whoever I am dealing with the opportunity to decide whether or not they can handle those two things.  Some people can not and I am absolutely perfectly ok with that.  I would much rather someone not get involved with Me if it is going to be to their emotional detriment.  Not every person out there (regardless of gender or role) can be involved with someone who has multiple relationships. 

It's up to greater minds than Mine whether you can teach a person not be jealous or if that emotion is truly imbeded in someone's psyche.  What I will say is that it is definitely possible to teach someone how to deal with it better, which in My experience leads to it being an emotion that is felt less often.  I don't really see jealousy as a primary emotion.  There is always something behind it.  Both of the males in My life know that they don't get to drop the J bomb without bringing Me the root of the problem.  Don't just bring Me the top of the weed and expect Me to be able to kill it.  Come to Me, open your mouth, and tell Me what's really going on.  I'll address anything that either one of them brings Me.  If I don't know what the issue is, there's not a darn thing I can do about it.



kanina -> RE: Jealousy. (4/11/2010 5:21:08 AM)

I know that i'm jealous, i'm not the extremist jealous but i'm so i'm not going to have a poly relationship... and i make it clear in the beginning. but as the relationship goes on and if owner would like it i may have a session or two with another girl... because i know that if i had an owner and he get a second sub i would start to have bad feeling and i would star to fell unhappy...



eyesopened -> RE: Jealousy. (4/11/2010 5:22:13 AM)

Jealousy is a reaction.  It is not an emotion.  People become jealous because of a loss or more often a precieved loss.  Jealousy is as common in Dominants as it is in submissives.  Maybe more so.  It seems the majority of "poly" relationships consist of one man fucking whoever he wants with several females only allowed to fuck him.  That's not my definition of poly.  That's my definition of a really insecure man. 

In relationships where there is no loss or precieved loss, poly functions very well.  I have known poly relationships where everyone has value, has time and interaction with each other and additions do not take anything away, but simply add value to the whole.  Not everyone can function or thrive in such a group.  I'm one who could not. 



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