RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sought to Protect Our Republic From (Full Version)

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pyroaquatic -> RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sought to Protect Our Republic From (4/13/2010 1:10:58 PM)

quote:

Something tells me, it is our beliefs toward 'value' that is our biggest problem; not money itself. Money is just a vice that can be used against us because of those beliefs.


I wholeheartedly agree with you on that Point, cpK69.
It is a 'value' problem. The question is WHY?

Appreciate the freedom to be broke.

edited to add: That PDF IS READING MY MIND




Silence8 -> RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sought to Protect Our Republic From (4/13/2010 9:26:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

You're never going to stop exchange.

You can control money without eliminating it altogether. That's a short-term solution that would have real consequences.

Plus, the war. End it. Slowly scale down military (everyone knows this in his/ her heart of hearts) with full compensation for all brave soldiers, etc.


As long as we adhere ourselves to a monetary system, there will be greed, corruption, hunger, pollution, and war.


I feel you're not really proposing anything.

One way or another there has to be a distribution of resources, and some kind of credit that is used to access those resources.

Even if, say, there is no money and you have somehow to 'apply' for all the things you want, there's still just as much room for unequal distribution that promotes class structure just as we have now.

Instead of going after the representation of value, why not go after the predatory class whose only ability is manipulating this value?

A big thing is in changing the values each and every one of us holds. Could you imagine, for instance, a girl goes on a first date, only to find that the guy is an investment banker, upon learning which she dumps her soup on his head and leaves before the entree even arrives? This could be real change -- a world where we don't value those who don't value their environment and their fellow humanity.

Add a whole system of social supports -- make it impossible to go homeless or hungry -- and watch how people break out of their shells and start flexing that innate moral sense once again.



Termyn8or -> RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sought to Protect Our Republic From (4/14/2010 2:03:05 AM)

"I feel you're not really proposing anything."

There's not much to propose. Anything that works has to be for the betterment of the commoner, also known as a sheeple. People are selfish and stupid and elected leaders with the same qualities. Since the manipulators can print money, we have no chance as long as the people take such stock in it, despite the evidence right in their face that they should not. Something has to happen, and I don't think we can make it happen, at least not easily. If we had enough public support to make anything happen there would be many other options already, but that is not the case.

It's nice to dream, it can give one hope sometimes. I would like to see the judge who fined me $900 for fucking nothing trying to hitch a ride or getting on a bus. I would like to see Obama, Bush and Clinton in line at the social security office. I would like to see all bank accounts with a balance over a million dollars simply disappear. It ain't happening. However if we can break our own dependence on money we have them all beat. We need it and they got it. We have two choices, either to get it or forget it. Either results in the same outcome.

Until and unless we can get to that point somehow, we are going nowhere.

T



subfever -> RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sought to Protect Our Republic From (4/14/2010 3:19:37 AM)

quote:

I feel you're not really proposing anything.


This is the proposal I advocate.



Silence8 -> RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sought to Protect Our Republic From (4/14/2010 10:34:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

I feel you're not really proposing anything.


This is the proposal I advocate.


So, basically it's communism, right? I'm not seeing the difference, although I sort of skimmed. A lot of the same definitions you see in Das Kapital.

Just give an example. In this system, if I want to buy a t-shirt, how does that work? What do I do for housing? Can I study philosophy, or art, or do I have to become an engineer?



subfever -> RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sought to Protect Our Republic From (4/15/2010 1:12:01 PM)

quote:


Just give an example. In this system, if I want to buy a t-shirt, how does that work? What do I do for housing? Can I study philosophy, or art, or do I have to become an engineer?


Order the t-shirt, and either pick it up or accept delivery in a few days.

Move or travel to any city, and stay in any open housing. 

Study/pursue any course.

quote:

So, basically it's communism, right? I'm not seeing the difference, although I sort of skimmed. A lot of the same definitions you see in Das Kapital.


Yes, you "sort of skimmed"... [;)]



thompsonx -> RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sought to Protect Our Republic From (4/15/2010 1:29:54 PM)


So, basically it's communism, right? I'm not seeing the difference, although I sort of skimmed. A lot of the same definitions you see in Das Kapital.

Do you feel that because it shares some of the same definition of terms as Das Capital it looses it's validity?



subfever -> RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sought to Protect Our Republic From (4/15/2010 1:35:06 PM)

I think you probably meant to direct your question to Silence8. 



thompsonx -> RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sought to Protect Our Republic From (4/15/2010 1:50:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

I think you probably meant to direct your question to Silence8. 


Correct you are



Silence8 -> RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sought to Protect Our Republic From (4/15/2010 9:01:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:


Just give an example. In this system, if I want to buy a t-shirt, how does that work? What do I do for housing? Can I study philosophy, or art, or do I have to become an engineer?


Order the t-shirt, and either pick it up or accept delivery in a few days.

Move or travel to any city, and stay in any open housing. 

Study/pursue any course.

quote:

So, basically it's communism, right? I'm not seeing the difference, although I sort of skimmed. A lot of the same definitions you see in Das Kapital.


Yes, you "sort of skimmed"... [;)]



Well, c'mon... there is after all a whole section on 'futuristic cities'. It's like, focus!



Silence8 -> RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sought to Protect Our Republic From (4/15/2010 9:09:00 PM)

Okay. So I got my t-shirt.

Now I want to buy a really big diamond ring. And so do most of my neighbors. And people in other countries.

(It's not as if, though, I think we should organize our whole economy around luxury goods. I'm trying to get a picture of what you're actually talking about.)



OwningU -> RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sought to Protect Our Republic From (4/17/2011 10:39:24 AM)

We need to talk to people, get them to listen, to understand what could be, what may never happen in our lifetime is still so very possible in the future.



subfever -> RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sought to Protect Our Republic From (4/17/2011 1:13:08 PM)

Oh wow... thanks for resurrecting this thread, almost to the day of its anniversary.

Until very recently, I've been away from these boards, spending more of my time with like-minded people. My beliefs that we live within an unsustainable monetary-economic paradigm are even stronger today than they were a year ago.

Unfortunately, most of us are still thinking inside the box, as a result of carefully engineered conditioning. We don't realize just how profoundly conditioned we are when we worship competition and feeding off each other, to sate our voracious appetitites to accumulate tangible assets. Our conditioned egos come into play here too.

We've been conditioned to believe that in order to be happy, we must accumulate a certain amount of tangible assets, and have the opportunity of accumulating infinitely more. We never even entertain the notion that a tangible asset is only as good as the utility it provides, or that we eventually become slaves to maintaining possession, by way of ownership.

We've been conditioned to believe that these pursuits somehow makes us "free," when most of the fruits of our labor trickle up to the top 1%. We've been conditioned to believe that government is a benevolent entity which serves the masses, when in reality it is a business that will ultimately serve the highest bidders.

We've been conditioned to worship (and participate in) the political system for the alleged "checks and balances" it provides; when in reality, its main function is to maintain the status-quo while slowly moving forward the agendas of the elite.

We've been conditioned to fear, which is why we justify war, as well as ultimately allow the gradual erosion of our human rights and dignities.

We've been conditioned to focus upon addressing effects as opposed to causes, as well as blaming each other for our problems instead of the underlying system itself that we worship.

John Lennon's lyrics in Working Class Hero are just as true today, as they were 40 years ago when he wrote them.

And you're right, OwningU. Deconditioning is a long and tedious process. We may not see the changes we wish to see in our lifetimes, but they are possible for our children, if enough of us patiently continue to express our views.








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