RE: The NCSF and the DSM revision project

RE: The NCSF and the DSM revision project (Full Version)

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Whiplashsmile4 -> RE: The NCSF and the DSM revision project (2/4/2010 3:39:13 AM)
quote: politically – not scientifically – based I think this statement in the opening post expresses the true concern that is at the center of the issue. I was reflecting upon the big moral majority push that was going on before the 911 attacks. The influence of the "Moral Majority" from the Right Wing side of politics. Before 911 hit us, Politics was more focused upon moral values. A few moments ago, I was standing in my kitchen thinking about this thread and "What if the 911 attacks never happened, where would things be today?". To be honest, I'm not crazy about the FAR RIGHT WING with pushing the moral religious aspects, because then BDSM becomes sinful and threatens to taint the moral values of America's children. So we end up getting the Screw Job. Then again, I'm not Crazy about the FAR LEFT WING, that insists upon trying to protect human beings from themselves. Where S&M or consensual violence should not be tolerated nor permitted because it's harmful to ourselves and Sends out the wrong message. FRACK, FRACK, FRACK... FAR LEFT, wants to screw us, FAR RIGHT, wants to screw us. Thank God, the focus is upon "the war", "unemployment", "Screwed up Wall Street crap", "Alternative Energy" and even "Global Warming". I'm afraid, the very moment our society returns to reasonable sound state with a certain Peace of Mind... That Moral Values and People trying to protect us from ourself will resume it's regular programming schedule. This just makes me wanna kick every Peace Loving Hippy Liberal trying to make laws for the sake of our own good in the groin, and beat every extreme religious moral freak over the head with a bible. The FAR Left, The Far Right... either side can/will put their agenda screws to things. I apologize if I offend anybody, it's not my intention to personally offend. It actually sort of sickens me that Far Right Wing Christians can scream out that they are being persecuted for being Right Wing Christians, yet at the same time they take and persecute those that don't have the same moral values. It sickens me, that FAR LEFT Wing Hippy Liberals are telling us they are trying to fight for our freedom, yet are coming up with Laws to protect us from ourselves and it's taking freedoms of choice away in the process. ..................... end of rant.

angelikaJ -> RE: The NCSF and the DSM revision project (2/4/2010 3:53:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wandersalone I think I am agreeing with Redmagic and LadyAngelika here (unless I have misread them [:)] ), to me the issue is not the wording of the DSM IV which I feel is apt, but rather it is the clinical skills of the psychiatrists or psychologists who diagnose. If you have personal experience in having a psychologist or psychiatrist tell you that spanking, M/s etc is wrong or that you are sick, ask to see another person instead and if necessary report them if you feel what they said was inappropriate. But the problem with that is when someone brings up M/s or BDSM etc activities to his/her therapist, they often are wondering if their desires are normal and may not have the understanding that what the mental health professional said was inappropriate. I am wondering if a big part of the problem is that the training people receive related to paraphilias is frequently inadequate. Information is a good antidote against personal bias.

LadyAngelika -> RE: The NCSF and the DSM revision project (2/4/2010 4:11:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wandersalone I think I am agreeing with Redmagic and LadyAngelika here (unless I have misread them [:)] ), to me the issue is not the wording of the DSM IV which I feel is apt, but rather it is the clinical skills of the psychiatrists or psychologists who diagnose. Actually I'm still not sure if RedMagic and I are on the same page. But speaking of same page, that was my issue. I don't know why it is that in studying these things, that there is always a disclaimer about addiction right under them. Sex is sex, addiction to sex is addiction. That was my point. From the very little I know about additiction, is that individuals who have addiction can transfer it from one focus to another, ie reduce sexual addiction and eat more, reduce eating addiction and drink alcohol more, etc. - LA

allthatjaz -> RE: The NCSF and the DSM revision project (2/4/2010 5:12:17 AM)
Of course this is about morals. If one can implant enough morals in the people then what they get is a none thinking nation. If we can create enough fear of something as traumatic as a diagnosable mental illness then we can create controll. Who was that person that sat down and made this a diagnosable mental illness? I bet your bottom dollar it wasn’t a psychiatrist! My concern would be, if diagnosed with paraphilia, what will this imply? is there medication? how would this effect you if for example you were raped and took your rapist to court? How would it effect you if you committed a crime? how would it effect your family and your children. Are you put on a high risk register?

Firebirdseeking -> RE: The NCSF and the DSM revision project (2/4/2010 6:42:18 AM)
While most therapists might not balk at some "pain with pleasure", I do thing most therapists would mentally raise their eyebrows at the notion of a D/s or especially an M/s relationship. Most therapists operate off a humanistic model, which assumes "equality". A different model that is too far off the equality model is not what we are trained to honor and accept. Moreover, for most therapist, especially those trained in treating abuse including domestic violence would look at "control" and dominance as domineering and halfway to being abusive. I shudder to think how "sex therapists" may be reacting to their kinky clients. But then, I dont think too much of sex therapists.

allthatjaz -> RE: The NCSF and the DSM revision project (2/4/2010 7:09:58 AM)
We have some tantric sex therapists over in the UK. A lot of their stuff is based on the Karma Sutra and the Karma Sutra goes back to the 7th century and talks about pain and pleassure. I doubt you can get them on the NHS though. It sounds like Paraphillia is a spaghetti diagnosis. If it has no precise and defining lines it can be manipulated into individual cases. The problem with that it is open to each individual psychiatrist/therapist for their own decision and depending where the quacks morals lay it could be used for people like us.

lovingpet -> RE: The NCSF and the DSM revision project (2/4/2010 9:50:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4 quote: politically – not scientifically – based I think this statement in the opening post expresses the true concern that is at the center of the issue. I was reflecting upon the big moral majority push that was going on before the 911 attacks. The influence of the "Moral Majority" from the Right Wing side of politics. Before 911 hit us, Politics was more focused upon moral values. A few moments ago, I was standing in my kitchen thinking about this thread and "What if the 911 attacks never happened, where would things be today?". To be honest, I'm not crazy about the FAR RIGHT WING with pushing the moral religious aspects, because then BDSM becomes sinful and threatens to taint the moral values of America's children. So we end up getting the Screw Job. Then again, I'm not Crazy about the FAR LEFT WING, that insists upon trying to protect human beings from themselves. Where S&M or consensual violence should not be tolerated nor permitted because it's harmful to ourselves and Sends out the wrong message. FRACK, FRACK, FRACK... FAR LEFT, wants to screw us, FAR RIGHT, wants to screw us. Thank God, the focus is upon "the war", "unemployment", "Screwed up Wall Street crap", "Alternative Energy" and even "Global Warming". I'm afraid, the very moment our society returns to reasonable sound state with a certain Peace of Mind... That Moral Values and People trying to protect us from ourself will resume it's regular programming schedule. This just makes me wanna kick every Peace Loving Hippy Liberal trying to make laws for the sake of our own good in the groin, and beat every extreme religious moral freak over the head with a bible. The FAR Left, The Far Right... either side can/will put their agenda screws to things. I apologize if I offend anybody, it's not my intention to personally offend. It actually sort of sickens me that Far Right Wing Christians can scream out that they are being persecuted for being Right Wing Christians, yet at the same time they take and persecute those that don't have the same moral values. It sickens me, that FAR LEFT Wing Hippy Liberals are telling us they are trying to fight for our freedom, yet are coming up with Laws to protect us from ourselves and it's taking freedoms of choice away in the process. ..................... end of rant. Amen! Sexuality in general has always been a politically charged subject in western culture. Anywhere really, sex has a whole lot of baggage attached to it. At the end of the day, that baggage is serving some sort of purpose. Unfortunately, not all of us benefit from the what society has determined is best. I consider myself a good, moral person, but I know I am not "by the book" (nope, I don't mean the Bible either. I mean the one everyone carries around in their head and places ahead of it for some reason). I also consider myself someone who wants the best for the well being of those I care about. Neither of these excuse the demonizing of such a basic human act as sex. Deviant sex doesn't even stand a chance in such an environment either. Sex and values systems have always been a political tenderbox. I don't foresee that changing any time soon. As to the further discussions in this thread about the implied paraphilia/addiction link, I think it is quite blatant. Whether it is that having a paraphilia diagnosis is akin to a diagnosis of addiction or if the paraphilia is viewed as an addiction in and of itself really matters very little. The condescension and derogatory meaning is still the same. It is not hard to see that this was a deliberate attempt to place sadomasochism in the same moral category along with alcoholism and drug addiction. The implication is that the sadomasochist cannot stop, is driven by compulsion, and will ultimately suffer dire consequences. The inherent problem in that is the overwhelming numbers of people who manage to use drugs, alcohol, and...yes...sadomasochism in moderation and appropriately. Are they addicts? Is it really the "substance" that is the issue? No. It is the personality type that drives it. It is also fueled by individual choices. There is actually nothing that we do or take into our bodies that does not impact us in some way that may become addictive. Whether it be Twinkies, endorphines from extreme exercise, alcoholic haze, or subspace rush, it all has the potential for abuse. It is making very specific choices, following patterns of behavior, and controlling the impulse to both overindulge and to indulge with great repetitiveness that separates a normal partaking from an addiction. Therefore, if addiction is to blame, the course of therapy should have a focus upon impulse control and behavior modification alongside challenging perceptions. When the act or substance itself is demonized, it leads to the ability to blame and then we are left with an unfixable situation. If it is all alcohol's fault and why don't they just stop making the stuff, then the alcoholic is merely a victim and can wrap up in that cloak very securely. If the drive of therapy is to break the addiction, then the DSM has already set such clients up for failure. Absolutely anything in this whole world can be used to fuel an addictive mindset. Sadomasochism is certainly one of them, but exercise that "addicts" by the same basic mechanism is okay. It is the link to sex that is key. Let's face it. What are the three always mentioned together? Sex (first on the list, interesting no?), drugs, and rock n roll. LOL Sex of any kind has this cultural tendancy to be placed on the same plane as alcohol, drugs, and "the devil's music". This is what needs to stop. Let's not pretend that one thing is so much more noble than another. Anything to excess can lead down a very destructive path. Let's figure out and treat the REASONS someone goes down that path, not get so hung up on what their "drug" of choice is at the moment. lovingpet

Hawkwindblues -> RE: The NCSF and the DSM revision project (2/4/2010 10:26:20 PM)
quote: In my opinion, anyone presumptive enough to use facebook to keep the world "up-to-date" with what they had for breakfast or what their significant others did/said to/for them has a mental disorder. Where is the DSM diagnosis of an attention whore? Although i would not go as far as you, i am amazed and irritated by it. But i class it as a mixture of childlike and villagelike behaviour. I love villages and hamlets by the way and children (well some of them) are most beautiful. The way human beiigs communicate is always developing, the virtual reality as coined by William Gibson is unimaginable real today, i tend to view the developement with a lot of tolerance and interest, although you would not find me participataing any more than i do it here since a long time and the odd report on dooyoo.

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