Teaching vs. Helping To Learn

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lovingpet -> Teaching vs. Helping To Learn (1/23/2010 7:29:40 PM)
I think there is a huge difference in these two paradigms, at least on a theoretical basis. Teaching, to me, implies intentionally handing a person information for a specific purpose. It means leaving out those pieces of information deemed irrelevant to the teacher. I don't like to be taught. I always know that there is something I'm not being told, either intentionally or just based on the perspective and biases of the one delivering the information. I think, however, it is useful when the teacher him/herself is the focus of the lessons. I am taught what my partner's preferences are in everything from tone of voice and dress, to what he likes in his salad. He is pretty well the expert on HIM. Helping a person learn means allowing for the free exploration of subject matter by the other person. He may offer me direction in my search, but I am ultimately responsible for finding what I need and what conclusions I draw based on it. It also has a huge element of trial and error involved. I will make mistakes and learn some of my lessons the hard way. I generally like this. I like knowing that, if I want to, I can find out whatever I want and am in the position to form a fully informed opinion on the matter. I find that aspect very empowering. I also find that I get to keep a lot of control over what I assimilate by this method. I sometimes think my learning preferences are the symptoms of a control freak! LOL I find this method good for such things as learning about various activities, dynamics, theories, etc. Let me gather all the information I can manage to find, offer me some resources I am not aware of, and discuss with me what I find along the way. Let me try some things out and see what I think and how it goes. How do these learning methods coexist, or do they, in your relationship? Dominants, when and how do you employ each? Submissives, which do you prefer and why? These are some things we can look at . As always, feel free to wander into other territory. As always, I look forward to polite and interesting discussion. Thanks! lovingpet

chamberqueen -> RE: Teaching vs. Helping To Learn (1/23/2010 8:09:01 PM)
The greatest teachers encourage their students to think and to grow. A parent teaches a child, "do not run into the street without looking both ways first". A good parent will then explain why. An exceptional parent will ask the child why and talk the possible consequences through with them. This is how I see an ideal relationship between a BDSM couple. There doesn't need to be a big difference between the two paradigms but they can be masterfully interwoven so it is almost impossible to see where one leaves off and the other begins.

peppermint -> RE: Teaching vs. Helping To Learn (1/23/2010 8:47:55 PM)
As we all have are own flavor of BDSM and our own definitions of words, we also have our own personal prejudices. Yours is teaching versus helping to learn. Mine is training versus teaching. If I have to choose between my two words, I would definately choose teaching over training. With your words, with my own definitions of them, I get a feeling of six of one, half dozen of the other. I really have no preference. as to me they both have such a similar meaning that it would mean splitting hairs to choose.

agirl -> RE: Teaching vs. Helping To Learn (1/24/2010 5:49:27 AM)
It all depends. If I'm after certain information , then that's what I'll ask for. I was taught from a VERY early age to think for myself. Nothing changes when I'm in a relationship. I don't require help to learn . I know how to learn. I'm not sure what you mean by being a control freak for getting yourself informed. quote.. I find this method good for such things as learning about various activities, dynamics, theories, etc. Let me gather all the information I can manage to find, offer me some resources I am not aware of, and discuss with me what I find along the way. Let me try some things out and see what I think and how it goes. unquote This is how most children here learn, it's the norm. I don't know one single person that would accept what they are being taught as some absolute. What has being D or s got to do with informing yourself and exploring thoughts on information available? It's fine that M teaches me what he prefers when it comes to HIM .....it has nothing to do with anything outside of him. It's nothing to do with learning. It's just things he prefers and likes. I'm not sure what you mean by being a control freak in this aspect. agirl

Level -> RE: Teaching vs. Helping To Learn (1/24/2010 5:59:32 AM)
lovingpet: you did a great job explaining the two. I can teach someone how to dress to please me. I can help someone to learn about music, I can tell her that I love the band Soundgarden, but I can't "teach" them to love them as I do.

DesFIP -> RE: Teaching vs. Helping To Learn (1/24/2010 6:06:52 AM)
It depends on what you want to learn. If this is something practical, like how to change the oil in a car then I don't want to have to figure it all out. I don't need to explore why this needs to be done. I simply need to be taught where the plug in the oil pan is, what tool is required to remove it and I want every possible suggestion on how to accomplish this without getting covered in used oil. I am a home baker. Baking requires rigid adherence to recipes. I don't need to know how baking powder works, I just need to know how much is required in an individual recipe. Opposed to baking is cooking which is anything but an exact science. Here you want the freedom to explore and try different variations.

NorthernGent -> RE: Teaching vs. Helping To Learn (1/24/2010 6:41:04 AM)
I would disagree with your definition of teaching - but that's neither here nor there. Assuming you're charting a distinction between instruction and a more open approach and assuming you're not talking of trivial matters such as what time we're going to the restaurant then I would like to think that I've demonstrated in the past that I'm one for the open approach. If there's one principle I do tend to think is a must it's that people learn by experience and must be given the room to make their own mistakes and arrive at their own conclusions. The conclusion isn't particularly important - the journey advises on the character of a person.

lovingpet -> RE: Teaching vs. Helping To Learn (1/24/2010 3:41:43 PM)
Thanks to all who have responded here so far. I apologize for not getting back to this thread for so long. We had some nasty computer problems. I think the first thing to clarify is that I have found that everybody needs help to learn. If the subject matter has any size to it at all, then sometimes it isn't even clear what all the questions are. When I want to learn about something, I find my own sources, but I also look for recommendations from those sources that will help me further. Someone may suggest I read this book or article or may encourage me to try it a different way and see if that works better. We are social creatures and there is nothing wrong with admiting that we do, in fact, lack what we need on occasion to further our own development. When I talk about being a control freak, I am delving into my own general unwillingness to accept even what seems to be fact. This stems from a long history, starting fairly young of learning that the way the world is portrayed is almost complete falsehood. I discovered the underlying truth to some things that is taught as fact. None of the many teachers I encountered along the way do I think ever intended to lie to me. They simply didn't become privy to very sensitive information. Because of this, I know that even a well meaning teacher that I trust isn't always going to have the answers that satisfy me. It isn't that I wish to control what information I take it. It is that I want ALL the information and usually less is available from any given source than I need. It is an attempt to offset perspectives and background. You can say that my experiences have jaded me. Some "experts" that people tout to me as the ultimate in objectivity and the pinnacle of research and knowledge, I don't and can't trust. It is a control thing in me that I almost lust for MORE information, the rest of the story, etc. I have a sense that if I will just dig deeper, I can reveal something else that changes everything. I will admit I'm probably not doing too well with the distinctions here. I appreciate Level saying otherwise. I gave myself a big pat on the back for doing oh so well, but the responses show I fell quite short this time. There are plenty of things I am willing to be simply taught. There's nothing to be gained by the journey, nor will it change the destination. Like Des's example, the only thing that will change if I try change the oil on my own is frustration and a great big mess. Then again, if I want to know how it came to be that we use motor oil instead of french fry grease to perform the task motor oil does in a vehicle, I am not going to be happy with simple explanations. I know there's more under the surface. (Of course, I am being silly with this example. [;)]) I doubt there are very many of us that really accept all our information being spoon fed to us. D/s aside, it really is a simple matter of being a thinking individual. I run up against wondering about my trust in my partner, however, when it seems like I am questioning him almost in an accusatory manner about theories, perspectives, etc, even though that isn't really my intent and he doesn't take my questions that way. I feel bad for being so rough on such subject matters. I don't believe that trust never asks questions. I would, however, like to more open to accepting those answers without so much skepticism attached. It is one thing to question the motives of a corporation or government official. It is quite another to bring that to lay in an intimate relationship (not so much questioning his motives as the framework upon which he builds). It is natural for me to do this, however, and he has no problem with it. I have a problem with it. That's why I was interested in the balance in other people's relationships. How much is okay to be spoonfed before you choke on it and have to have more? That point and why will be different for everybody. I doubt I've clarified a darn thing, but I hope this brings about some further discussion. lovingpet

agirl -> RE: Teaching vs. Helping To Learn (1/24/2010 4:27:52 PM)
What's the difficulty? You aren't bugging him , he's fine with you finding out your information wherever you can ........ fine with you coming to your own conclusions ......and amongst ALL that ...you say YOU have a problem with it. But you don't say WHAT problem , you just skip right over that. You never actually GET to it. Your point is lost amongst all those words. That's why I was interested in the balance in other people's relationships. How much is okay to be spoonfed before you choke on it and have to have more? There isn't anything to balance. I haven't been remotely spoonfed. All my thoughts are my own. Being with him isn't going to change the fact that I'm going to read up, listen out, in exactly the same way I have from childhood. It is one thing to question the motives of a corporation or government official. It is quite another to bring that to lay in an intimate relationship (not so much questioning his motives as the framework upon which he builds). It is natural for me to do this, however, and he has no problem with it. I have a problem with it. I am missing the difference... What framework? Why do you have a problem asking about the framework he's bulit? And if it's a natural thing to do.... again, why the problem? HE doesn't have one therefore I can't see what the problem is? agirl

DesFIP -> RE: Teaching vs. Helping To Learn (1/24/2010 7:06:16 PM)
Ah, so you're questioning him. How long have you been together? I had to ask him all kinds of questions in the beginning. As time went on and I saw that he researched problems before making decisions, I asked less questions. And the questions changed to just asking if he had considered specific things. Since most solutions cause their own problems, I then started asking him if he had considered that his solution might cause x, y or z. Once I saw that he did in fact think of these things, I didn't need to ask those questions any more. But this process took a couple of years after we were full time. No way could it be done ldr when I simply wasn't seeing him make enough decisions.

Aylee -> RE: Teaching vs. Helping To Learn (1/24/2010 7:41:51 PM)
LP, You might find this article interesting: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/10/20/081020fa_fact_gladwell?currentPage=all If that link does not work, let me know, but it did work for me. Your methodology sounds similar to what Gladwell described as the "late-bloomer." (This is not derogotory, BTW.) This may just be a part of who you are and the way that you do things. I hope that the article gives you a different perspective. [:)]

kdsub -> RE: Teaching vs. Helping To Learn (1/24/2010 9:51:11 PM)
I know you want this discussion to be about the lifestyle but I hope you don’t mind me using it for life in general. In my profession I’ve had to give many teaching seminars...what I found was because of my preparations to give the presentation and trying to anticipate all the questions I would receive I ending up learning myself. I actually got better at my job and used this to increase the knowledge of my subordinates. I would have them pick a subject related to their job and give a teaching seminar to the people they were responsible for once a week…They became better supervisors. I see no reason why this would not work for you just as you described…. In teaching, be it yourself or others, you become more skilled by gathering information on your subject. Butch

Termyn8or -> RE: Teaching vs. Helping To Learn (1/25/2010 1:26:27 AM)
pet, I blew off all the responses to give you a "pure" response. So this is a jumpthrough. You have hit upon the crux of the matter, which applies to so much other than your seemingly inteded purpose in posting this. Learning how to learn is fundamental. That is why reading is fundamental. I understand your words, perhaps even more than yourself as I am over 90% self educated. People like me have certain traits of you look for them. I can fix your helicopter but I can't name all fifty states. I can design you a dandy amp and speaker system that will knock the socks off your whole neighborhood, but if you pay me, I need help to count the money. Really. My IQ might tally up there really high. but in ways i am like a savant. If I were forced to learn things on another's agenda I would have never gotten this far. I mean one time I put $580 in the bank but punched in $480. A structured education might be a good thing, but it wasn't for me. But I did learn how to learn. Once you do that you never stop until the day you die. It sounds so simple, learning what your partner wants. "He likes it when I do this and doesn't like it when I do that" is very true, but a blatant oversimplification. T

chamberqueen -> RE: Teaching vs. Helping To Learn (1/25/2010 7:08:31 AM)
pet, I waited until after seeing your second post before chiming in even though the whole idea of teaching and learning is so important to me. You are correct: a lot of what is taught as truth is misinformation, from the history that we learn in school to certain hot political topics to the one true way to live a BDSM lifestyle. (No such thing.) It is good to see that that you realize that part of it is a trust issue. What I have found for myself that the more times the same source is reliable, say it is your Dom, the less often one feels the need to question. Take a statement like "I like my steak medium rare". That's a pretty easy one to trust, shows a preference, and you will know to cook his steaks medium rare. A statement like, "A Dom holds most of the power in the relationship" and I'm going to be out looking up information, asking others, checking myself, etc. A statement like that is not based on fact but on perception. It may be a preference, but if there aren't facts to back it up then it loses its validity. You asked for examples of how others handle it. If a new concept is brought to me I accept what my Master says because he has earned my trust. I may do additional research on the topic because I enjoy knowing as much as I can about something. I am allowed to ask questions for clarification and have trained myself to never let them come across as whiny or showing distrust. If I disagree I am allowed to tell him that I respectfully disagree and to give an example. (This came in very handy one day when we were talking about wants vs. needs in a slave. I was able to bring something to his attention that he had never thought about before, he told me I was exactly right, and that he had never thought about it from that perspective.) There are other times when I simply need to take him at his word. Either there is no time for research or it is something that is almost impossible to find out more about. At that point I allow my deep trust in him to kick in and simply accept what he says. He has never done anything to purposely hurt me and I know that he has a reason for feeling about something the way that he does. I have found that it also makes us closer if I turn to him and tell him that a situation confuses me and will he please help me to understand it. This is most valuable when I run into an emotional response in myself that I am not expecting. This happened just recently in our relationship and I realized that I had never trusted anyone so deeply in my life before, to actually expect them to be able to sort out why I was feeling a certain way because I couldn't figure it out on my own. He hit the nail on the head and helped me to understand the situation better. I realized that I felt closer to him than ever simply because he was able to teach me something new about ME. It showed me how much careful attention he has paid to me. There are few bonds as meaningful in life as those between a teacher and student and I am very thankful that he cares enough about me to teach me.

lovingpet -> RE: Teaching vs. Helping To Learn (1/25/2010 5:55:01 PM)
Thanks everyone! Despite my somewhat fumbled attempt here, I got some good feedback on what was in my head. I really did appreciate it all! If anyone has anything further, of course I will look forward to it. lovingpet

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