RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty

RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty (Full Version)

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osf -> RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty (1/24/2010 8:56:23 AM)
i kind of think once she wants to be obedient to me the loyalty will take care of itself

RealSub58 -> RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty (1/24/2010 9:19:42 AM)
The OP stated:: Do you make a distinction between your understanding of the word "obedience" versus the word "loyalty"? The discussion has been shallow, IMO, until chamberqueen. quote: ORIGINAL: MasterLark My own view is that obedience is essential to me, but loyalty is even more important. I do not see obedience in a vacuum, for obedience without loyalty has no meaning to me. I do not want a mindless robot slave. I do not want her to leave her brain at the door. So I see obedience as an active extension of her growing loyalty to me. Yes, in my context, she might disobey from time to time, and learn to obey better as time passes but her intentional disloyalty most likely severs our connection and trust. In my view, loyalty must include obedience, but I do not need perfect obedience. I do need complete loyalty, not absolute loyalty nor blind obedience; complete loyalty accepts forgiveness in certain rare circumstances. I am not perfect and I do not expect her to be perfect. I expect myself to be loyal to her, in protecting and caring, and taking her, and I require her service and surrender to be not just obedient but loyal to me. Disobedience has its limits when it is a pattern and repetitive, but if she actively learns to obey, that reflects a loyalty I cherish. chamberqueen wrote Loyalty also encompasses many other things like watching out for his best interests, keeping certain things private, never allowing my heart to become divided, etc. I think based on what both writers have stated, loyalty is something of a "character" trait. Obedience is an action based upon one's character.

osf -> RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty (1/24/2010 9:24:57 AM)
quote: I think based on what both writers have stated, loyalty is something of a "character" trait. Obedience is an action based upon one's character. like respect is an attitude and courtesy is behaviour

agirl -> RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty (1/24/2010 10:24:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterLark So I am curious. Do you make a distinction between your understanding of the word "obedience" versus the word "loyalty"? Are they inter-changeable for each other? Is one a sub-set of the other? Why so? Many posts say the Master/Dom/Domme expects loyalty and obedience from their sub/slave...as if the words mean something different. Do they? What? Yes, there's a distinction.....and they aren't interchangeable. M can expect as much obedience as he likes and he can elicit my agreement on it. My loyalty can't be expected nor asked for......it can be wished and hoped for. I'm not loyal to my rules, every time..........but I'm loyal to him. HE would say that I am fiercely loyal yet not terribly obedient. I could be MADE to be obedient , but no-one can MAKE me be loyal. agirl

ValyraenAndAqua -> RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty (1/24/2010 10:51:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterLark So I am curious. Do you make a distinction between your understanding of the word "obedience" versus the word "loyalty"? Are they inter-changeable for each other? Is one a sub-set of the other? Why so? Many posts say the Master/Dom/Domme expects loyalty and obedience from their sub/slave...as if the words mean something different. Do they? What? The words do mean different things. I can be obedient to anyone who has enough power over me to cause me to obey... till the situation changes. Only with the ones I'm loyal to do I continue to obey willingly and happily. - Aqua, the Resident Poison Ivy

Missokyst -> RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty (1/24/2010 10:58:21 AM)
I was obedient to my former mate. I was also loyal. Now he is my x. I am no longer obligated to be obedient. But I am loyal, till death. That was part of the package when I let him into my life. I knew it then and I accepted it as part of my personality. Obedience was situational for me. Loyalty is part of my makeup. quote: ORIGINAL: MasterLark Many posts say the Master/Dom/Domme expects loyalty and obedience from their sub/slave...as if the words mean something different.

agirl -> RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty (1/24/2010 11:29:07 AM)
Which always leads me think...."Loyal in what way?". I've never discussed loyalty with M. It's something we sort of know is there, in a certain way. I haven't had my loyalty tested in any way that could be considered testing ......... so how do I know I'd be loyal in testing times?....lol I might sell him down the river, for all I know.......lol How can you decide whether you're loyal or not , if you've never had to put it to the test? How can you decide HOW loyal you are....... is it quantifiable? agirl

osf -> RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty (1/24/2010 11:37:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: agirl Which always leads me think...."Loyal in what way?". I've never discussed loyalty with M. It's something we sort of know is there, in a certain way. I haven't had my loyalty tested in any way that could be considered testing ......... so how do I know I'd be loyal in testing times?....lol I might sell him down the river, for all I know.......lol How can you decide whether you're loyal or not , if you've never had to put it to the test? How can you decide HOW loyal you are....... is it quantifiable? agirl in a happy relationship i don't think questions of trust and loyalty crop up when they do it's a sign of problems to me

Rochsub2009 -> RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty (1/24/2010 11:41:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RealSub58 The discussion has been shallow, IMO, until chamberqueen. i think this is shallow. [:D]

agirl -> RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty (1/24/2010 11:53:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: osf quote: ORIGINAL: agirl Which always leads me think...."Loyal in what way?". I've never discussed loyalty with M. It's something we sort of know is there, in a certain way. I haven't had my loyalty tested in any way that could be considered testing ......... so how do I know I'd be loyal in testing times?....lol I might sell him down the river, for all I know.......lol How can you decide whether you're loyal or not , if you've never had to put it to the test? How can you decide HOW loyal you are....... is it quantifiable? agirl in a happy relationship i don't think questions of trust and loyalty crop up when they do it's a sign of problems to me I wouldn't attach trust to loyalty. And you can have a happy relationship......... with problems. I've lost count of the amount of submissives that can't "trust" their doms to look after themselves. I've lost count of the amount of girls that worry or take care of their dom's diet. Mine can die in butter heaven for all I care. Happy relationships have their fair share of problems......the difference is the way they get dealt with. agirl

osf -> RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty (1/24/2010 11:58:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: agirl quote: ORIGINAL: osf quote: ORIGINAL: agirl Which always leads me think...."Loyal in what way?". I've never discussed loyalty with M. It's something we sort of know is there, in a certain way. I haven't had my loyalty tested in any way that could be considered testing ......... so how do I know I'd be loyal in testing times?....lol I might sell him down the river, for all I know.......lol How can you decide whether you're loyal or not , if you've never had to put it to the test? How can you decide HOW loyal you are....... is it quantifiable? agirl in a happy relationship i don't think questions of trust and loyalty crop up when they do it's a sign of problems to me I wouldn't attach trust to loyalty. And you can have a happy relationship......... with problems. I've lost count of the amount of submissives that can't "trust" their doms to look after themselves. I've lost count of the amount of girls that worry or take care of their dom's diet. Mine can die in butter heaven for all I care. Happy relationships have their fair share of problems......the difference is the way they get dealt with. agirl in the relationship would the problem be one of trust or more a mundane type of problem if there's a question of trust i don't see that as a happy relationship

agirl -> RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty (1/24/2010 12:37:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: osf quote: ORIGINAL: agirl quote: ORIGINAL: osf quote: ORIGINAL: agirl Which always leads me think...."Loyal in what way?". I've never discussed loyalty with M. It's something we sort of know is there, in a certain way. I haven't had my loyalty tested in any way that could be considered testing ......... so how do I know I'd be loyal in testing times?....lol I might sell him down the river, for all I know.......lol How can you decide whether you're loyal or not , if you've never had to put it to the test? How can you decide HOW loyal you are....... is it quantifiable? agirl in a happy relationship i don't think questions of trust and loyalty crop up when they do it's a sign of problems to me I wouldn't attach trust to loyalty. And you can have a happy relationship......... with problems. I've lost count of the amount of submissives that can't "trust" their doms to look after themselves. I've lost count of the amount of girls that worry or take care of their dom's diet. Mine can die in butter heaven for all I care. Happy relationships have their fair share of problems......the difference is the way they get dealt with. agirl in the relationship would the problem be one of trust or more a mundane type of problem if there's a question of trust i don't see that as a happy relationship That depends what kind of trust you're looking for. Mundane type of problems can be a matter of trust too. agirl

Prinsexx -> RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty (1/24/2010 1:01:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterLark So I am curious. Do you make a distinction between your understanding of the word "obedience" versus the word "loyalty"? Are they inter-changeable for each other? Is one a sub-set of the other? Why so? Many posts say the Master/Dom/Domme expects loyalty and obedience from their sub/slave...as if the words mean something different. Do they? What? I've read the thread thus far and my thoughts are this. Obedience and loyalty are both abstract nouns...difficult to understsnd outside of relationship. Easier to understand both as and in part to separate them as psychological experiences and behavioural phenomena. In terms of an experience, (in my experience that is) they can often be congruent but also often not. Where obedience is prioritised there need be no loyalty whatsoever. Obedience can be a discrete experience and accrue to more than one other. It can be purely behavioural with no internal conversion whatsoever. Often in acts of obedience I have found myself going againast internalised beliefs. Because that is the nature of obedience. Loyalty can also be incongruent. That is to say there may be a deeply internalised belief in beng loyal to someone without any evidence of behavioural obedience whatsoever. Those who remain loyal to partners who have died, those who remain loyal to G(g)od(s) where there is no evdence of such we say have a loyalty verging on faith. Or we extol the virtue of such loyalty as faith. Loyalty to an ideal in the face of political repression (loyalty to the ideal of freedom of speach, or democracy) often requires covert behaviour. None of this is peculiar to bdsm. Just part of life.

littlewonder -> RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty (1/24/2010 4:43:22 PM)
loyalty = to be faithful, unswerving in allegiance. obedience = to be submissive towards another, to yield. Yup two different animals. I can be loyal to someone but not be submissive towards them. I may stick by them, I may be there for them but that doesn't mean I'm going to submit to their control. I'm loyal to friends and family. I definitely am not obedient to them at all times.

Rochsub2009 -> RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty (1/24/2010 7:59:49 PM)
Ooops, didn't mean to hit the reply button. Now how do i delete this?

Missokyst -> RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty (1/24/2010 10:19:41 PM)
Actually this is something I have thought about for years. I have decided it is not necessarily loyal to a person, but loyal to my personal credo of honoring my committment, once I have made that change in my head. Not everyone gets loyalty from me. I could walk away from many people in a heartbeat and never take a backward glance or remember much about them. But once I have let someone in my heart and mind, they are there, regardless of whether or not they stay physically in my life. This has led to me staying friends with any of my ex's. And by friends I mean we remain in contract and can call each other for help or a shoulder at a moments notice. Loyalty for me means that they always have priority in my life. The degree of which is dependant on circumstance. quote: ORIGINAL: agirl Which always leads me think...."Loyal in what way?". I've never discussed loyalty with M. It's something we sort of know is there, in a certain way. I haven't had my loyalty tested in any way that could be considered testing ......... so how do I know I'd be loyal in testing times?....lol I might sell him down the river, for all I know.......lol How can you decide whether you're loyal or not , if you've never had to put it to the test? How can you decide HOW loyal you are....... is it quantifiable? agirl

Huntertn -> RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty (1/25/2010 5:04:47 PM)
You go ResidentSadist. I find your explaxion more easy to both understand and to use titleAndStar(4199,0,0,false,"","")

JonnieBoy -> RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty (1/25/2010 7:44:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: agirl Yes, there's a distinction.....and they aren't interchangeable. [sm=agree.gif] Pirate

Kana -> RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty (1/25/2010 10:02:37 PM)
All I can say is that I am loyal to many things, ideas, morals, beliefs, self, yet not be obedient to them.

Kana -> RE: Obedience Vs Loyalty (1/25/2010 11:04:52 PM)
Example-I am a loyal American, yet in a daily act of disobedience, I break the law by speeding.

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