RE: Pretence: dynamic without responsibility

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Elipsis -> RE: Pretence: dynamic without responsibility (1/17/2010 9:58:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: osf quote: ORIGINAL: Elipsis Don't forget the flip side of the coin. The submissive can "submit" with no real commitment or responsibilities either. "Did you flog yourself for 4 hours yesterday?" "Oh yes Master, of course I did." that's not the way i conduct myself, we just talk I didn't mean you specifically... I just mean that such things are possible.

osf -> RE: Pretence: dynamic without responsibility (1/17/2010 9:59:52 AM)
quote: I didn't mean you specifically... I just mean that such things are possible. true enough

lally2 -> RE: Pretence: dynamic without responsibility (1/17/2010 10:12:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prinsexx .Whilst 'under consideration' the D simply disappears. Or drops her. Or takes another. Or returns days later without a single word of explanation and then says she's whining. Let's suppose they meet. Half way because of distances. For coffee. To extablish the deed of consideration. They meet. He then drops off the planet. Anyone had this experience? Anyone owning up to having done this unto another? What's missing in my understanding is responsibility... which I define as an ability to respond. That in the real world of give and take, of relating, there are those who are able to actually respond to another's confusion or need. Responssibility is an aspect of relationship not peculiar to the lifestyle but to life in general surely. So what is it with the pretence of being in control? The pretence of being dominant? The pretence of mastery? What is it within submission whereby one would submit under such a set of circumstances? [/size][/font] all of that sounds to me alot along the lines of a D enjoying the 'game', playing along, gets a bit like hard work without the fringe benefits of actual physical release and either takes time off and uses his position to 'excuse' that or just buggers off completely because it was fun at the time, but real life has taken over. its fantasy with no strings attached. the meeting up and dropping off the planet is probably down to the fact that he didnt feel any chemistry with the sub. i think that as you get more experienced with all of this you tend to avoid the whole online saga until the meet up, well i do anyway. so often in the early days id submit to a guy i hadnt met, get all intense and happy, then meet and realise that they werent right for whatever reason and then there was the whole 'gap in my life' thing to get over. the online getting to know can be really intense, especially as a person who needs control and direction in her life, i have in the past let the on-line stage get to me too much. i have let people down and renaiged on the responsibility of my part in the relationship after realising that its just not right. people can feel baffled and bemused by that and wonder what went wrong. but i just know in my gut what and who will work usually before i even meet them but usually not until theres been a period of correspondence and talking on the phone. if they are puzzled by me then turning them down then thats really theyre problem and not mine. if they couldnt feel the disparity then it just proves a little more to me that we were not tuned in. in the end i think there is no responsibility until the meet and i do not submit on line any more. if anyone writes to me referring to me as 'slave' i rarely even bother to respond. i just know where its going and im not interested.

agirl -> RE: Pretence: dynamic without responsibility (1/17/2010 10:27:24 AM)
No idea. People submit in all sorts of conditions that would leave my head reeling , but their head finds it fine. Dropping off the planet, disappearing without saying a word or taking another girl without any mention don't have a great deal to do with D/s. It's just unreliable and inconsistant behaviour. There are plenty of people being controlled by others with those behaviours and just as many reasons why it's accepted. It's perfectly possible to be in control of someone else and behave like that. All you need is someone willing to accept it and people accept all sorts of things out of naivete, lack of confidence, low self esteem, stupidity, love, denial, desperation, lust, rushing....and so on. Basically, expectations of any kind are best tailored to circumstances. agirl

sexyred1 -> RE: Pretence: dynamic without responsibility (1/17/2010 10:39:04 AM)
I don't really get involved in pretence. That is one reason I don't really become engaged at all until I actually meet a person. I have found that men in particular, tend to get overly invested in the online chat, they get overly excited before knowing if there will be true chemistry. I am sure women do as well, but not me. I literally have no feelings beyond whether I like their emails, or speaking on the phone and if someone and I seem to get along in one of those venues and they do not ask to meet me right away, I lose interest. It amazes me when someone calls or writes, seems interested and then disappears and come back a few weeks or months later expecting me to still be interested in them. To me, loss of contact mean immediate loss of interest. Actions speak louder than words so don't tell me you are so interested and then not follow up right away. I know life issues sometimes get in the way, but in general, write me, talk to me on the phone and then let's meet for a drink/coffee. That is why long distance is not really something I engage in because of the inability to meet fairly soon. I am sure I might be missing out on someone wonderful long distance, but...that is the way it is.

MasterSlaveLA -> RE: Pretence: dynamic without responsibility (1/17/2010 11:18:07 AM)
1) Personally, I've never considered the "online only" thing as any type of ACTUAL power dynamic... and think the "under consideration" thing nonsensical. 2) What you refer to as "cyber control" can be an effective PRIMER prior to meeting in R/T... provides an s-type with a flavor of the D-type, gives the D-type a flavor of what the s-type is responsive to (and how well they respond/how willing they are to respond), as well as gives the s-type the "headspace" they may be seeking. But again... only as a primer to actually MEETING IN REAL TIME; with the intent of finding someone for a R/T dynamic. 3) The "disappearing act" happens on both sides of the slash... either can be fakes, flakes, or liars.

stella41b -> RE: Pretence: dynamic without responsibility (1/17/2010 11:44:22 AM)
I disagree about the separation between cyber and real time. The computer you're sat behind is a tool of communication nothing more. It has no bearing on your reasons, motivations or intentions. Claiming that it's more reliable to seek people in real time makes about as much sense as claiming that malicious fairies are at work on CM profiles. It's a social thing, more connected with society. A lot of people today are shit scared of the reality of who they are and their lives. They can come online and pretend, bullshit people right left and centre, but when it starts to look as if it's going to real time they chicken out and bail. Some people have just given up and making the necessary effort and commitment to start a friendship or relationship. It's too much trouble. They settle for the on-screen fuzzies and the rub a dub dub down in the crotch area because they're either too lazy, not confident enough or even not free emotionally for the human contact and to seek out real jiggy jiggy. People don't actually think about what they're doing. They try to get as far as they can without thinking. So male dom in Colchester, England hits it off with female submissive in Abilene, Texas and not until logging off for the night thinks 'WTF is Abilene?' Some are a bit more persistent. They've studied the Google Map of Scotland intensely for about half an hour and unable to find Abilene anywhere between Glasgow and Inverness conclude that it must be somewhere like Kazachstan and give up. A more popular reason for me is that nowadays people are looking for the quick payoff with minimal effort and maximum return and lose interest when it starts looking like they're going to have to make some sort of effort or incur some sort of expense. Most people are inherently selfish, very few are altruistic, and if they cannot see clearly what's in it for them then they'll back off or lose interest at the drop of a hat without saying anything. I had this conversation with the OP a few days ago. I won't even consider a dynamic with anyone until they've convinced me they're prepared to make a consistent effort towards friendship over a period of time. And if they can't be arsed to be my friend, they're not worth anything to me in BDSM terms. Nothing at all.

sexyred1 -> RE: Pretence: dynamic without responsibility (1/17/2010 11:51:42 AM)
I just had an example which perfectly illustrates the lack of effort that people make. About 5 minutes ago some "Dom" asks for a private chat. I have never seen their profile and there was a no photo, but I was in a good mood, so I said, ok, I will chat. After a couple of lines of small talk about geography (he lives not far from me) and the weather (it is cold and rainy here) he says, So tell me everything about you and what you would like in a Dom. I said, well, it is all articulately stated in my profile. What in particular would you like to know? HE says, oh I don't have time to read profiles, I am a very busy man with a great life and I believe a sub should work at interesting a prospective Dom. I said, not interested in such an arrogant idiot. You wrote ME stud. He said, you are not really a submissive and exited the chat. I rest my case. Laziness online is a curse in getting to know someone. I am bored by the lack of effort.

Prinsexx -> RE: Pretence: dynamic without responsibility (1/18/2010 10:06:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven I'd say that this is not a question of responsibility as much as commitment. Hood point. And not just a question of semantics but also a quesstion of the relationship between responsibility and commitment. Like which comes first?

Prinsexx -> RE: Pretence: dynamic without responsibility (1/18/2010 10:07:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP The only constant in all your relationships is you. That's a truism so why state it?

Prinsexx -> RE: Pretence: dynamic without responsibility (1/18/2010 10:13:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: osf quote: ORIGINAL: Prinsexx I've sat on this thought for a few days now. Kicking it around inside my head trying to find the right angle on what could so easily be mistaken for yet another virtual v real debate. Simply put: this is based on an experience of cyber and grounded in a question. The question is; why do some/many/ doms like to exert cyber control? I am talking about those relationships where the Dom and sub have either not yet met or have met but are continuing the relationship via chat or IM (because of say distance). It seems to me that it is a medium well suited to pretence. That is that is it a medium which not only enables such pretence but encourages it. And such pretence is a tool of domination without responsibility. Some examples.....(sorry if this seems gender biased)..... He (the D) contacts her (the s) by mail on and off over an extended period of time (say a year). He discloses his intrigue and then interest in her. He then asks if she would consider being under consideration. In that twist and turn of words and fate this turns out not to be a question but a statement. He sets her certain tests or trials \|(lets suppose also that these trials are written up in journals for all the world to see). Whilst 'under consideration' the D simply disappears. Or drops her. Or takes another. Or returns days later without a single word of explanation and then says she's whining. Let's suppose they meet. Half way because of distances. For coffee. To extablish the deed of consideration. They meet. He then drops off the planet. Anyone had this experience? Anyone owning up to having done this unto another? What's missing in my understanding is responsibility... which I define as an ability to respond. That in the real world of give and take, of relating, there are those who are able to actually respond to another's confusion or need. Responssibility is an aspect of relationship not peculiar to the lifestyle but to life in general surely. So what is it with the pretence of being in control? The pretence of being dominant? The pretence of mastery? What is it within submission whereby one would submit under such a set of circumstances? to me the fundamental definition of a dominant is a man that desires to own and control a woman. i don't see how he can come remotely near that in any way but in person. when i hear questions like this i have to wonder just who and what is being spoken about I agree. Whuch is why I would accpot that once 'owned' or cpllare or under contract or some equivalent agreed real time dynamic then yome spent apart physically (bur still within a tweny four seven binding) can i would accept be bridged by cyber control. But there are plenty of slave training type scenarios, of the kajira type, where domination is entirely on line. Again I wasn't trying to make this an essay in the difference between on-line and not on-line or a crtique od on-line. More a critique of responsibility.

Prinsexx -> RE: Pretence: dynamic without responsibility (1/18/2010 10:18:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xssve Some people are only happy with what they don't have- the flip side is Vanilla women: after you get married, it turns out they hate and want to change everything about you, and once they have changed it, the decide you're boring and want a divorce. I've seen it happen, my ex tried to pull that on me, I think it's more a matter of enjoying the thrill of the chase too much. [sm=wontshare.gif] I do enjoy the thrill of the chase myself, it's true, but I'm not hung on it, I enjoy devouring my "kill" too much. [8D] That's really fascinating that you should pick up on this aspect of control by remore control. I always, and just alway ask a sominant what he likes most: the chase or the capture. Most get caught ofguard by the question. But I will stick to my guns that remote control is a way of extending the chase.

Prinsexx -> RE: Pretence: dynamic without responsibility (1/18/2010 10:26:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Domin8tingUrDrmz I've had occasions where I just stopped communicating with a person. Quite simply, they weren't suited for Me, I told them I lost interest, they continued to hound Me, I blocked them. After a few times of telling someone I'm no longer interested to have them retaliate with crass remarks, or by attempting to 'submit' even more...I got to a point where I just no longer felt it was necessary to tell them I'm no longer interested and just blocked them. Then after doing that a few times, I felt bad because I didn't at least let them know I wasn't interested. LOL. I'm not trying to make light of your thread, but really, if someone tells you they are no longer interested...pleading your case likely wont help. Sure, I expect someone to ask 'why' I'm no longer interested; but if you are gonna ask why, be prepared to accept the answer and then move on. So, there ya go. I'm guilty and there are my reasons. I no longer just block, I decided My original method was the better method. But if they can't handle the truth like an adult, I still use my block. This really has nothing to do with them questioning me, at least, not for me it doesn't. I encourage questions, I PREFER questions. It also has nothing to do with any perceived responsibility. If after talking with someone for a period of time I discover they aren't compatible, I'm simply not going to continue persuing the possibilities. I don't want to bring someone into my home that isn't going to be a good match. Period. ETA: This is the internet. While I'm 'considering' someone, I don't put a whole lot of emotion into things. Don't get me wrong, I'm friendly, flirtatious, and generally just who I am naturally. But I don't get too emotionally connected at least not until I've met with them and decided they are a good fit. I cannot stop a person from becoming more emotionally invested than I am. I can warn them not to get too attached until I'm blue in the face, but their emotions are for them to control. So instead of getting hurt each time one has a failed online romance, why not find out how emotionally invested they are before one invests all of themself? It's far easier to find out how invested they are by actually meeting, in person, several times. You know I switch. Even though I have gone forwards an backwards from swith to submissive on my profile here that is because if I put switch I simply get inundated with mail from submisive males and it's not so much submissive males that I am interested in. But my point is that I have been guilty of 'dropping' somene submissive to me in this way on line. In YM for example. I've not done it consciously or by intention of not being responsible. And I have responded to them as much and as far as I have been able to. So I'm going to get off my high horse about 'blaming' and say I see the behaviour within myself. And I do think it hinges on the amount of emotional investment I could give. O'm going to suggest then that it simply takes more emotional investment to submit that it does to domnate.

NuevaVida -> RE: Pretence: dynamic without responsibility (1/18/2010 10:31:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prinsexx O'm going to suggest then that it simply takes more emotional investment to submit that it does to domnate. Unless of course the dominant is as equally invested, or more invested, than the submissive.

Prinsexx -> RE: Pretence: dynamic without responsibility (1/18/2010 10:35:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lally2 i think that as you get more experienced with all of this you tend to avoid the whole online saga until the meet up, the online getting to know can be really intense, especially as a person who needs control and direction in her life, i have let people down and renaiged on the responsibility of my part in the relationship after realising that its just not right. in the end i think there is no responsibility until the meet and i do not submit on line any more. Yes Yes Yes and ideally yes.

Prinsexx -> RE: Pretence: dynamic without responsibility (1/18/2010 10:40:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 That is why long distance is not really something I engage in because of the inability to meet fairly soon. I am sure I might be missing out on someone wonderful long distance, but...that is the way it is. I've never been that excited about what's to hand so to speak or felt that moved to fuck within my post code. I'm sure there's often been an amazing guy next door...I've just passed him by though.

Prinsexx -> RE: Pretence: dynamic without responsibility (1/18/2010 12:41:22 PM)
You already know I agree with you on most of these issues because we have talked about it and so I woild like to have a conversation with you inside your box. quote: ORIGINAL: stella41b It's a social thing, more connected with society. A lot of people today are shit scared of the reality of who they are and their lives. They can come online and pretend, bullshit people right left and centre, but when it starts to look as if it's going to real time they chicken out and bail. Let me say right here that yes I agree I am shit scared of who I actually am. I have used various strategies in my life to try to escape who I am. I have tried to dumb myself down. What I mean by this is that I have tried to narrow the range of my vocabulary...it's an effort to sound like the Sun when in actual fact my prefferred style is the Guardian. Except poetically where I dunno some afro-caribbean swing on E E Cummings rapped in the melancholia of Syvia Plath? (OK so I'm noy b;ack but I am femail and yes suicidal ar times. Who wouldn't be given the amount I've paid fo gas central heating over Xristmas?) THE most dfifficult who I am is an intellectually-creative-slave-heart. See at least four of those hyphenated words in that compound word don't sit together well. And ageing. The most important question a dom (who said he loved me, still loved me and will always love me if I translated his on line French correctly) recently asked me what colour my hair was. My answer was XXX Live Red Passion. (Waterproofed) We've ALL got issues and I simply think those who say they haven't are lying. And surely, as humans, we are all afraid of the same issues? No? People don't actually think about what they're doing. They try to get as far as they can without thinking. So male dom in Colchester, England hits it off with female submissive in Abilene, Texas and not until logging off for the night thinks 'WTF is Abilene?' Some are a bit more persistent. They've studied the Google Map of Scotland intensely for about half an hour and unable to find Abilene anywhere between Glasgow and Inverness conclude that it must be somewhere like Kazachstan and give up. It's amazing how chemistry shrinks the planet. A more popular reason for me is that nowadays people are looking for the quick payoff with minimal effort and maximum return and lose interest when it starts looking like they're going to have to make some sort of effort or incur some sort of expense. I'm going to not skip this point but link it to your next.............. Most people are inherently selfish, very few are altruistic, and if they cannot see clearly what's in it for them then they'll back off or lose interest at the drop of a hat without saying anything. Her's a thing: altruism is selfish for an s type. And yes when I really swing towatds the save in me I do grab at straws to get the need satisfied. I can't think of any other model except the D/s where altruism meets selfish proportions and selfishness becomes alrtuistic. That's the subject of yet another thread. And if they can't be arsed to be my friend, they're not worth anything to me in BDSM terms. Nothing at all. Agreed. And friends don't just drop off the planet. Well at least if they do they leave a number.

Prinsexx -> RE: Pretence: dynamic without responsibility (1/18/2010 12:47:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 I just had an example which perfectly illustrates the lack of effort that people make. About 5 minutes ago some "Dom" asks for a private chat. I have never seen their profile and there was a no photo, but I was in a good mood, so I said, ok, I will chat. After a couple of lines of small talk about geography (he lives not far from me) and the weather (it is cold and rainy here) he says, So tell me everything about you and what you would like in a Dom. I said, well, it is all articulately stated in my profile. What in particular would you like to know? HE says, oh I don't have time to read profiles, I am a very busy man with a great life and I believe a sub should work at interesting a prospective Dom. I said, not interested in such an arrogant idiot. You wrote ME stud. He said, you are not really a submissive and exited the chat. I rest my case. Laziness online is a curse in getting to know someone. I am bored by the lack of effort. The 'reality' of what actually gets said in chat beats any attempts at a theses here hands down.

Missokyst -> RE: Pretence: dynamic without responsibility (1/18/2010 12:55:48 PM)
This is why anyone I converse with online, whether it is for days or years are always just people, not dom or sub, not slave or master, not savior or swine. If you don't allow someone to take control over you, they will not have the power to disappoint you. I save that for real life encounters, if my ability to discern a dick has gone under the radar.

DesFIP -> RE: Pretence: dynamic without responsibility (1/18/2010 12:57:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prinsexx quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP The only constant in all your relationships is you. That's a truism so why state it? Because you missed the piece it follows. You pick these guys. Over and over, if there's a really good guy around you ignore him and pick the losers. Of course you think there are no decent men around because you don't see them. I've been here over two years and you've come to the boards repeatedly with drama about the latest bad fit you're attempting to get together with. If you want a good relationship then you need to identify and fix why you only chose men you will have a bad relationship with. I'm suspecting that you pick these guys because you really don't want a relationship so you always sabotage them. If that's so, fine. But it isn't fine for you to claim that since you only pick losers that every man around is a loser. Because that isn't true. I started online, we were LDR for a couple of years, we've been living together for over four. And I'm not the only one who has done this. It is doable, if you do what's required to get there.

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