Lawyer, Refuses To Pay Bank Of America Credit Card, Threatens To Sue (Full Version)

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pahunkboy -> Lawyer, Refuses To Pay Bank Of America Credit Card, Threatens To Sue (1/5/2010 1:53:05 AM)

Ben Pavone told Bank of America in a letter last week that he refuses to pay off his credit card debt until the bank lowers his interest rate. And, he added, if they try to ruin his credit, he'll sue 'em. "They've got to have some kind of obligation to not totally extort the public," said Pavone. The San Diego, Calif. attorney is angry about two things: his interest rate, which has gone up to 27.99 percent, and his credit limit, which has gone down to just above his balance. "I'm sure I'm going to be hit with penalties," he said. Pavone said he got "squeezed for cash" and asked Bank of America to raise his credit limit in October. The bank responded with a two-page letter. The first page declined the request; the second told him his limit would be reduced from $32,100 to $30,400. Bank of America cited "economic trends" in both decisions. "I consider your action an anticipatory repudiation of the contract and am treating you as in breach," he wrote in a Dec. 31 letter to the bank. "I am therefore not paying the money that is currently due on January 3, 2010 out of protest." Pavone said he got the protest idea from Ann Minch, the Red Bluff, Calif. woman who launched a "debtors' revolt" via YouTube in September. Minch won imitators and also a reduced interest rate on her own card. Pavone, Minch et al are all asking the same question: Why is it fair for bailed-out banks to reward themselves with bonuses and at the same time to soak taxpayers who've done nothing wrong?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/04/ben-pavone-california-law_n_410630.html





mefisto69 -> RE: Lawyer, Refuses To Pay Bank Of America Credit Card, Threatens To Sue (1/5/2010 4:02:34 AM)

oh, we need to go Much farther than just complaining. These scum sucking Boards need to be publicly tarred and feathered.




SailingBum -> RE: Lawyer, Refuses To Pay Bank Of America Credit Card, Threatens To Sue (1/5/2010 4:38:56 AM)

and dont forget da bombster and heis morons in govt...

BadOne




theGuideGoddess -> RE: Lawyer, Refuses To Pay Bank Of America Credit Card, Threatens To Sue (1/5/2010 5:05:10 AM)

The bank has raised my interest rates and is lowering my limits as well.  They are being held to 'new' standards on reserves, hence the multitude of bank failures last year and 800 are expected to fail this year.  Therefore they are lowering EVERYONES credit limits in an attempt to bring things under control.  This will fail as long as they continue with ridiculous interest rates that truly should be illegal.  Especially considering the cost of the money to them. 
 
I have discovered that turn about is fair play.  So this month, along with my minimum payment on my credit cards I am sending them a letter.  If they cash the check they will be in acceptance of our new terms of agreement.   Those new terms change my minimum payment.   When they apply a late fee or an over limit fee I will penalize them $2500.  It will not be long when I will have no balance.  I am actually hiring a former banking industry expert to handle this for me.  Anyone wanting his name email me for further information.
 
The Guiding Goddess




Lucienne -> RE: Lawyer, Refuses To Pay Bank Of America Credit Card, Threatens To Sue (1/5/2010 6:08:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: theGuideGoddess
 If they cash the check they will be in acceptance of our new terms of agreement. 


I seriously doubt that is going to work. Payment from a pre-existing debt generally does not count as consideration for a new agreement. But have fun fucking with your bank! If you just act crazy enough, they might work with you.




theGuideGoddess -> RE: Lawyer, Refuses To Pay Bank Of America Credit Card, Threatens To Sue (1/5/2010 6:11:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucienne

quote:

ORIGINAL: theGuideGoddess
 If they cash the check they will be in acceptance of our new terms of agreement. 


I seriously doubt that is going to work. Payment from a pre-existing debt generally does not count as consideration for a new agreement. But have fun fucking with your bank! If you just act crazy enough, they might work with you.



Yes, I thought the same until I started learning the law.  Albiet, I will say that I also think some of the laws today are crazy as well.

The Guiding Goddess




pahunkboy -> RE: Lawyer, Refuses To Pay Bank Of America Credit Card, Threatens To Sue (1/5/2010 6:38:20 AM)

Perplexing it took this long....




flcouple2009 -> RE: Lawyer, Refuses To Pay Bank Of America Credit Card, Threatens To Sue (1/5/2010 6:40:20 AM)

Maybe if he hadn't run his credit card balance to almost 30 grand he wouldn't be in a money crunch.  What exactly does he think he is going to sue them for? 




DarkSteven -> RE: Lawyer, Refuses To Pay Bank Of America Credit Card, Threatens To Sue (1/5/2010 7:15:44 AM)

The guy has a legit point.  I know of no other contractual agreement that can be modified at any time by one party and not the other, and requires notification only to do so.

That said, the old "If you cash this check, you agree to the following conditions" and "I disagree with you so I'm going to welsh on my debt" are ridiculous plays that will prejudice the case against him.




pahunkboy -> RE: Lawyer, Refuses To Pay Bank Of America Credit Card, Threatens To Sue (1/5/2010 7:44:58 AM)

FL- I don't think one is allowed to copy the entire article in a post.   




NuevaVida -> RE: Lawyer, Refuses To Pay Bank Of America Credit Card, Threatens To Sue (1/5/2010 8:19:22 AM)

I started a thread about a year and a half ago on this very topic.  Having been financially ruined from my divorce and subsequent layoff, my credit score plummeted.  The result was the credit card companies lowering my limit to just barely above what I owed, and raising the interest rate to 30% so when the finance charge hit, I immediately went over my limit.  Then they charged me an overlimit fee of $35.   When I called to complain it was basically "too bad".  Total gouging in my book.  30% is criminal.  It had me posing the question of whether rates should be regulated.




pahunkboy -> RE: Lawyer, Refuses To Pay Bank Of America Credit Card, Threatens To Sue (1/5/2010 8:23:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

I started a thread about a year and a half ago on this very topic.  Having been financially ruined from my divorce and subsequent layoff, my credit score plummeted.  The result was the credit card companies lowering my limit to just barely above what I owed, and raising the interest rate to 30% so when the finance charge hit, I immediately went over my limit.  Then they charged me an overlimit fee of $35.   When I called to complain it was basically "too bad".  Total gouging in my book.  30% is criminal.  It had me posing the question of whether rates should be regulated.


even tho you dont hear much on this.  a large amount of people simply stop paying.

April 15th will be a day to watch as well...




NuevaVida -> RE: Lawyer, Refuses To Pay Bank Of America Credit Card, Threatens To Sue (1/5/2010 8:42:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

even tho you dont hear much on this.  a large amount of people simply stop paying.



I had one joint account which the ex racked up to $5000 and did not pay on.  When I called Citibank to try to work out a payment plan I could actually make, they were totally uncooperative and quite rude.  So I stopped paying on it.  It jacked my credit even more, but I see on my credit report that Citibank has written off the debt as unrecoverable loss, so I have no plans to pay now.  My credit is recovering slowly and will continue to in time.

All other cards have been paid off at this point and will remain paid off.  Too bad for Citibank.  Had they been willing to work with me, they'd probably be paid off by now.  Silly rabbits.




LadyEllen -> RE: Lawyer, Refuses To Pay Bank Of America Credit Card, Threatens To Sue (1/5/2010 9:19:28 AM)

Seems to me that there could be a loophole or two - although its unlikely they havent long since been closed up.

Pinnel's case from the early 17th century is interesting - he was owed money and agreed to accept a lower sum before the debt was due. He then sued for the remainder when the debt was due but failed, because the earlier repayment provided him with additional consideration to support the new agreement to accept a lower sum in repayment. The same would apply had the debtor offered payment other than in money, offered payment in a differerent place, in a different currency etc, as long as the payment offered advantage to the creditor in some way - which need not be adequate advantage.

So if the bank agrees to accept GBP instead of US$ in satisfaction of the debt (unlikely, but you never know), you could get away with paying, effectively, a few cents in the dollar. Pinnel's case is so early it wouldnt be surprising if the same thinking was in US law, notwithstanding the closing of such a loophole and the bank's probable rejection of your offer.

Do you have promissory estoppel in US law? Basically one party agrees not to enforce its full legal rights and the other party relies on this. The promisor is then prevented from going back on the agreement. With this, the minimum payment and interest rate could be suspended for a period or cancelled altogether, and the bank would be unable to sue.

Misrepresentation is another good area to look into. If the bank offered terms in the contract which you relied on and which later came to be seen to be untrue, you have grounds to counter sue. Unfortunately this is likely only to apply to the actual credit agreement and not to the bumf they use to induce you to sign, and it would be very unlikely that after all these years such a problem in the terms and conditions had not been rectified in the bank's favour.

Anticipatory breach as our lawyer friend seems to opt for is an interesting one. Again the terms and conditions are the reference point and it would be surprising indeed to find that the bank did not have the option in the contract to basically do as it pleased with regard to interest rates, minimum payments, payment dates and credit limits, such that it might amend any or all at any time and remain adherent to its duties under the contract. Our lawyer friend might well find himself in breach, rather than the bank.

The problem ultimately amounts to this question - is the credit agreement such that it survives each amendment (to which the creditor has agreed) or is there a new agreement at each instance of amendment? If the former, then any well drafted agreement will have the creditor by the balls at all times, which is most likely the actual situation. If the latter then there are many defences to any suit against the creditor.

E




DomImus -> RE: Lawyer, Refuses To Pay Bank Of America Credit Card, Threatens To Sue (1/5/2010 4:44:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009
Maybe if he hadn't run his credit card balance to almost 30 grand he wouldn't be in a money crunch.  What exactly does he think he is going to sue them for?


That was my thought. I have to dig pretty deep to find any sympathy for an attorney with thirty large on his plastic.




Termyn8or -> RE: Lawyer, Refuses To Pay Bank Of America Credit Card, Threatens To Sue (1/5/2010 7:02:20 PM)

FR

It's not going to work. On a cardholder's agreement you sign that you agree that Bank Of America can change the terms of the contract as they see fit. Now there are a few limitations. First of all with a varible rate, it will be based on prime or LIBOR usually. If that rate goes up your interest will go up, but they did not change the terms. There is nothing you can do.

However if they change your spead, which is what they tack onto the base prime or LIBOR, that is a change. They must notify you of that change and give you the option to opt out. Then you can pay the card off on the previous terms, but can't use it. They can also change the calculation of the minimum payment, but then again you will be given the option to opt out.

If this guy is a lawyer he should know at least that much about contracts. If not I wouldn't want him defending me for jaywalking. I not only read my original cardholder agreements and all subsequent revisions, I actually save them.

The only hope this guy has is to find something improper in the contract or it's revisions, other than that, all he will succeed in doing is to wreck his credit. And he must have had some to get a card with a high limit. Good credit is an asset. That doesn't mean there is never a time in life to spend it, to wreck it, to let it go. But that is something you plan, you don't take it lightly. It takes near a decade to get it back to anything like it's former state.

Maybe somebody should take a poll. Is the guy a crackpot, incompetent or both ?

T




LafayetteLady -> RE: Lawyer, Refuses To Pay Bank Of America Credit Card, Threatens To Sue (1/5/2010 8:20:31 PM)

I hope that your friend also explained to you that you need to send the payment somewhere other than the address on the envelope provided. Those are processing centers and it is written somewhere on your bill that all correspondence needs to be sent to a different address. This will prevent the theory of them cashing the check and accepting the agreement. Shame, because it would be so cool if the plan worked, lol.

LadyEllen,

You are absolutely correct. Although I'm not sure if US law has adopted such things as yet.

Termyn8or

quote:


If this guy is a lawyer he should know at least that much about contracts. If not I wouldn't want him defending me for jaywalking.


Would you also expect your podiatrist to be versed in brain surgery? A criminal attorney shouldn't represent someone on a breach of contract case, and a contract lawyer shouldn't represent someone on a jaywalking matter. If it isn't their specialty, they generally do not know much about the area. I worked for a Harvard educator Matriomonial attorney and a Cornell educated Securites attorney. When the Cornell attorney wanted to refinance his house, it took us about a week to figure out all the paperwork because no one in the firm did real estate. Most areas of a law are very complex and you don't want someone who isn't well versed in whatever you need. Like I said, you wouldn't want your foot doctor working on your brain.

Aside from that, the old saying that "an attorney who represents himself has a fool for a client" applys here.




LadyEllen -> RE: Lawyer, Refuses To Pay Bank Of America Credit Card, Threatens To Sue (1/5/2010 8:44:20 PM)

Thanks Lafayette Lady - I'm studying this stuff at the moment so maybe I have an unfair advantage though?

T - I'd say the guy was both incompetent and a crackpot if I thought for one moment he were serious in what he's saying; closer to the truth I expect is that he has a case of advocacy-itis, a distressing condition to be sure, whose sufferers, as right as they may be in pursuing a valuable and just cause are thereby rendered blind to the law and often wind up destitute.

E




LafayetteLady -> RE: Lawyer, Refuses To Pay Bank Of America Credit Card, Threatens To Sue (1/5/2010 10:02:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Thanks Lafayette Lady - I'm studying this stuff at the moment so maybe I have an unfair advantage though?

T - I'd say the guy was both incompetent and a crackpot if I thought for one moment he were serious in what he's saying; closer to the truth I expect is that he has a case of advocacy-itis, a distressing condition to be sure, whose sufferers, as right as they may be in pursuing a valuable and just cause are thereby rendered blind to the law and often wind up destitute.

E


Personally Lady Ellen, I would rather have root canal than do anything involving contract law, it bores the crap out of me. But I did just go read the remainder of the article, and since he is threatening to file on the unconscionability of the rate hike and limit reduction, while not a slam dunk in favor of the attorney, it isn't a slam dunk in favor of the bank either. When you add to that the bank's statement that they change rates and limits based on risk and performance, his case is a lot stronger than most would think. Essentially, he has a good credit score and a good payment history (lack of risk), his limit of even the lowered thirty grand says they wanted him to use the credit. There is a good argument that there is an implied intent to cause him to go over his new limit with the higher interest rate.

Unconscionability is one of those legal arguments in contract law that is very open to interpretation so depending on the judge, he might not do to badly. If BoA were to force a trial, the Plaintiff is sure to demand a jury trial and does anyone really believe that anyone in the USA right now is going to find in favor of a bank trying to screw its customers? The cost of BoA fighting the suit would cost them more than the interest he would pay on the outstanding debt.

This case will likely not go to trial, but the attorneys credit will take a small hit. His legal reputation on the other hand would probably improve if he has to resort to filing.

Totally off topic though, the attorney is kind of cute.




LadyEllen -> RE: Lawyer, Refuses To Pay Bank Of America Credit Card, Threatens To Sue (1/5/2010 10:13:14 PM)

True enough he might get equitable relief but I think its pretty unlikely unless he can really establish the bank has done wrong in some way first. They are permitted to amend anything they wish according to criteria they themself determine in any way they prefer to determine them. If his position is then amended such that he is likely to incur additional charges because he is close to the new credit limit then that is his look out and he needs to ensure his payments cover his liabilities such that additional charges are not incurred. Unfair? oh yes. Legal, most likely since the bank is permitted to make amendments as it wishes under the contract and he agreed to that.

He is a lawyer after all, and my argument would be that he had special knowledge here that he ought to have applied before entering into such a contract, rather than waiting to complain later when the permitted amendments turned things against him as he sees it.

E




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