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Ever heard of using a safe word for vanilla sex? - 12/8/2009 5:01:34 AM

Lucienne

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I haven't. A politically influential man in Missouri finds himself charged with felony assault for (allegedly) choking a woman and slapping her in the face prior to engaging in sexual intercourse. His defense, she didn't use the previously agreed upon safe word ("green balloons" wtf?).

I'd love to see how a small town jury deals with the consent issues in this case. Story here.

My initial impression, Rod Jetton is a dick swinging ass and it wouldn't surprise me at all if he thought that breath play wasn't the sort of thing one needed to discuss in advance and get express consent for.

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RE: Ever heard of using a safe word for vanilla sex? - 12/8/2009 5:34:56 AM

slaveluci

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The story reports: "The affidavit says Jetton and the alleged victim agreed on a safe word — “green balloons” — that could be used to stop sexual relations during the evening. Instead, the affidavit says, Jetton hit her on the face and choked her before engaging in intercourse. Jetton allegedly said, “You should have said ‘green balloons,’ ” before leaving her home the next morning."

I don't know what happened or didn't. None of us do. But IF they agreed upon a safeword, there must have been an expectation from at least one of them that it would be needed for some reason. IF she agreed upon the safeword, I have to wonder why she DIDN'T use it. If that's the case. Doesn't seem weird to me that they had one. Just seems weird she didn't use it. But, who knows, maybe she did. We're only hearing part of one side of the whole story here.............luci

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RE: Ever heard of using a safe word for vanilla sex? - 12/8/2009 6:06:01 AM

Lucienne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci
But IF they agreed upon a safeword, there must have been an expectation from at least one of them that it would be needed for some reason. IF she agreed upon the safeword, I have to wonder why she DIDN'T use it.

I don't think it's strange they had a safe word. I find it interesting the way the story is written. Most people would not consider choking and face slapping as "sexual relations." The story is writing around the implicit bdsm activity.

As for why she didn't use the safe word, I think it would be hard to talk when you're being choked.

Of course that article isn't telling all sides of the story. I just find it interesting to imagine what a jury would do with this story. Or imagine what the affirmative defense instruction would look like. Consent is a defense. How would consent be defined for a jury? Would choosing a safe word mean "anything goes" until the safe word is used?

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RE: Ever heard of using a safe word for vanilla sex? - 12/8/2009 6:47:08 AM

DesFIP

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Breathplay and slapping don't qualify as vanilla sex. As to why she didn't say it? If he hadn't discussed what he planned to do, then she could easily have been afraid that if she used the safeword, he would have choked her to death. To most vanillas choking and slapping come under the heading of abuse. As they do here if done by a new partner without negotiation.

Plus it's hard to talk while you're being choked.

< Message edited by DesFIP -- 12/8/2009 6:48:37 AM >

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RE: Ever heard of using a safe word for vanilla sex? - 12/8/2009 7:14:49 AM

mnottertail

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The safeword for vanilla sex that I've always heard is:

Not tonight, I have a headache.

Ron

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RE: Ever heard of using a safe word for vanilla sex? - 12/8/2009 7:17:14 AM

DesFIP

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Snort!

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RE: Ever heard of using a safe word for vanilla sex? - 12/8/2009 10:36:16 AM

Hierodule

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Exactly what I was thinking. I don't consider this vanilla sex. I do think this guy was inexperienced in thinking that a safe word would work for breath play. Don't most people who are really into this kind of thing use a hand signal or something to indicate they need air? If you can't inhale you can't talk.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Breathplay and slapping don't qualify as vanilla sex. <snip>
Plus it's hard to talk while you're being choked.

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RE: Ever heard of using a safe word for vanilla sex? - 12/8/2009 10:37:46 AM

mnottertail

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yeah if she couldn't say the safeword 'blue' you shoulda been able to see that she was trying to signal it with her visage.

Ron

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RE: Ever heard of using a safe word for vanilla sex? - 12/8/2009 11:01:56 AM

outlier

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This paragraph from the story may explain
why she didn't say "green ballons". Or may
just be part of DA's version.

"Detective Bethany McDermott’s affidavit says Jetton went
to the woman’s home around 9 p.m. Nov. 15 with two bottles
of wine, which he allegedly opened alone in her kitchen. After
drinking some of the wine and watching football, the statement said,
the victim “began ‘fading’ in and out and remembered losing consciousness several times.”

Drinking a bottle of wine each, or engaging with someone who
has had more than a bottle, is not what anyone with common sense
would recommend doing. Especially with someone new. So if this
is to be believed they are both guilty of questionable judgment.
But we will never know what really happened.

OL

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RE: Ever heard of using a safe word for vanilla sex? - 12/8/2009 11:14:40 AM

pahunkboy

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RE: Ever heard of using a safe word for vanilla sex? - 12/8/2009 11:47:18 AM

LadyPact

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule

Exactly what I was thinking. I don't consider this vanilla sex. I do think this guy was inexperienced in thinking that a safe word would work for breath play. Don't most people who are really into this kind of thing use a hand signal or something to indicate they need air? If you can't inhale you can't talk.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Breathplay and slapping don't qualify as vanilla sex. <snip>
Plus it's hard to talk while you're being choked.

My thoughts as well.

One thing that does have Me puzzled is the 'fading in and out' mentioned regarding the wine. It makes Me tend to think there was more than wine involved and perhaps only one of them knew that fact at the time.

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RE: Ever heard of using a safe word for vanilla sex? - 12/8/2009 11:57:46 AM

LafayetteLady

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I don't think it's strange they had a safe word. I find it interesting the way the story is written. Most people would not consider choking and face slapping as "sexual relations." The story is writing around the implicit bdsm activity.

As for why she didn't use the safe word, I think it would be hard to talk when you're being choked.

Of course that article isn't telling all sides of the story. I just find it interesting to imagine what a jury would do with this story. Or imagine what the affirmative defense instruction would look like. Consent is a defense. How would consent be defined for a jury? Would choosing a safe word mean "anything goes" until the safe word is used?

[/quote]

I think that they are only discussing the "relations" that pertain to the injury. They may feel it makes better press. Personally, I think running the story saying that they engaged in breath play and face slapping during sex would be better press.

This leaves questions. There is no mention that they ever had sex, but he didn't leave until the next day. They say they drank "some" of the wine, not all and there is no mention of what time the battery allegedly occurred. A normal size bottle of wine will barely pour 4 glasses, so two bottle is around 8 glasses. If they didn't drink all the wine, one could assume that they had 3 glasses each. That does not typically result in a loss of consciousness. It does happen, however, if there was something in the wine or some other drugs involved.

Yes, Lucienne is an affirmative defense, but one can not consent to a battery so it isn't much of a defense. They can certainly assert consent as part of their defense, but then experts in BDSM play will need to be called to discuss how consent works within that context. Good luck with that one. Not that they couldn't find an expert, it wouldn't be that difficult. But this guy's political career is already over from this, I doubt that he will attempt to do damage control by claiming consent and providing enough expert testimony to explain how that consent works. Even if he did, then the prosecution will make the argument that there was no consent and if there was consent, when she lost consciousness he sould have known to stop, not to mention that the wine created diminished capacity which prevented her from consenting.

A large number of "vanillas" get the concept of kinky sex and will understand that breathplay can be deemed enjoyable. The face slapping they will find harder to swallow. I think we all remember the Chambers case way back when, so people are well aware of how breathplay is supposed to enhance a sexual experience. A jury wouldn't find that far fetched.

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RE: Ever heard of using a safe word for vanilla sex? - 12/8/2009 12:10:52 PM

Hierodule

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The article says:

quote:

Jetton hit her on the face and choked her before engaging in intercourse. Jetton allegedly said, “You should have said ‘green balloons,’ ” before leaving her home the next morning.

Ok I have only engaged in serious (read potentially dangerous) play with one person and we don't use a safe word. But for those of you that do, I have a question: Have you ever realized after play ended that your partner let it go to far? Have you ever said to your partner "you should have said the safe word?"

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RE: Ever heard of using a safe word for vanilla sex? - 12/8/2009 2:48:20 PM

Lucienne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
but one can not consent to a battery so it isn't much of a defense.

Sure one can consent to another knowingly causing you physical injury. Football players do it every week. Patients undergoing surgery do it every day. "Without consent" was an element of battery at common law. Now it's an affirmative defense, as in, if you prove consent, the charge is defeated.

quote:

They can certainly assert consent as part of their defense, but then experts in BDSM play will need to be called to discuss how consent works within that context.

The defense might want to call an expert, but I doubt they'd be legally required to do so to support the defense. Consent is something a jury can understand without assistance from experts. They may not understand why the hell someone would consent to such a thing, but they still know what consent looks like.

quote:

But this guy's political career is already over from this, I doubt that he will attempt to do damage control by claiming consent and providing enough expert testimony to explain how that consent works.

The guy's statewide political ambitions were basically already over before this, due to some ethics issues. But he's still making bank as a consultant. I doubt this will put much of a dent in his back room dealings - they'll just blame it on the trashy slut and a democratic conspiracy to undermine him. And, I never underestimate Missouri politicians in the shameless department. His attorney is going to have to make some pretty aggressive slut-shaming noises in the direction of the complaining witness if he wants to work out a decent deal.

quote:

Even if he did, then the prosecution will make the argument that there was no consent and if there was consent, when she lost consciousness he sould have known to stop, not to mention that the wine created diminished capacity which prevented her from consenting.

Well, of course the prosecution will argue those things. It still all comes back to consent. There's a MO case where a guy faced similar charges for injuring his girlfriend while fisting her. The court wouldn't let him argue consent because the girlfriend had a bac of .30 and was incapable of consenting. Not because no one can consent to being fisted.

quote:

A large number of "vanillas" get the concept of kinky sex and will understand that breathplay can be deemed enjoyable. The face slapping they will find harder to swallow. I think we all remember the Chambers case way back when, so people are well aware of how breathplay is supposed to enhance a sexual experience. A jury wouldn't find that far fetched.

They do get cable tv in Sikeston. But even if the concept of consensual breathplay and slapping isn't alien to the jury, it would still come down to what the lady consented to.

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RE: Ever heard of using a safe word for vanilla sex? - 12/8/2009 2:50:07 PM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

...His defense, she didn't use the previously agreed upon safe word...

the number 1 reason dominants and tops insist on them, in this slave's opinion, is so that when there's some responsiblity to be taken for a fuck-up, the alleged "dominant" or "top" can blame the "submissive" or "bottom" for not stopping the action that detrimentally harmed them.

what a crock of shit.

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RE: Ever heard of using a safe word for vanilla sex? - 12/8/2009 2:59:51 PM

dreamerdreaming

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Fast reply:

1. That was NOT vanilla sex. I find it amazing that anyone would characterize it as such.

2. A safeword will be useless if you are being choked. To have worked, it would have had to been a safe signal. And he would have had to been a trustworthy person, instead of just an asshole.

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RE: Ever heard of using a safe word for vanilla sex? - 12/8/2009 3:01:21 PM

Llyren

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I just keep thinking that it's safe WORD, not safe phrase. When I accepted that this was part of me, I chose a safeword, and it's ingrained in me so that even under duress I will know it. And it certainly isn't something that would come up normally.

I find it interesting that he chose a phrase that wouldn't be easy to say while being choked.

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RE: Ever heard of using a safe word for vanilla sex? - 12/8/2009 3:30:04 PM

Hierodule

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You know, I am totally new to this, and it never occurred to me before, but after reading your words, I agree. It does put the responsibility on the sub to ensure their own safety. And I don't think I am in any position to that when I am bound and being beaten. For one thing my ass (and mind) go numb after a while and I wouldn't even know if real damage was being done. I have only been in this one D/s relationship, and I don't know any other way, but I'm sure I prefer not having a safe word.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

...His defense, she didn't use the previously agreed upon safe word...

the number 1 reason dominants and tops insist on them, in this slave's opinion, is so that when there's some responsiblity to be taken for a fuck-up, the alleged "dominant" or "top" can blame the "submissive" or "bottom" for not stopping the action that detrimentally harmed them.

what a crock of shit.

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RE: Ever heard of using a safe word for vanilla sex? - 12/8/2009 3:32:47 PM

Missokyst

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I don't see any indication that this was nilla (if it were true). If it was true and what she says about his opening the wine and her going in and out of consciousness, might be the reason she could not use a safe word. If this did happen, not only is that guy not nilla, he is also a jerk.

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RE: Ever heard of using a safe word for vanilla sex? - 12/8/2009 3:53:42 PM

shadevarr

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Definitely nothing 'nilla there and I am favoring the odds the girl just consented to rough sex and wanted to get a little sloshed before hand. Any of us in the lifestyle know not to play a drunk subbie, it is just not safe. As far as the comment about "you should have used your safe word", straight up jerk. Probably said that as he was calling a cab for her.

On the plus side, we have moved from psychotic murder/rapists to idiotic politicians when it comes to S&M in the news so I consider this a win.

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