RE: Thankgiving grinch

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tazzygirl -> RE: Thankgiving grinch (11/27/2009 4:06:26 PM)
quote: If it helps your guilt any stop by one a them 400 Indian gaming establishments in the United States and watch them print money. They are generating $18.5B on their tax free reservations. Not exactly got your facts straight. quote: Taxation of Tribal Government Gaming Just like local, state and federal governments, tribal governments are not taxed on the revenue they generate. Rather, their duty is to provide healthcare, education and social programs on the reservation, the same basic services that other governments are charged with providing. Revenues earned on the reservation help to support and build infrastructure such as housing, electricity, water and other basic services. The federal government is responsible, along with tribal governments, for the health, education and welfare of Indian people, just as it shares responsibility with state governments, for the health, education and welfare of the citizens of each state. If the IRS taxed tribal gaming income, it would only mean that the burden for providing tribal government programs that the gaming revenues provide would be shifted to the federal government and all U.S. taxpayers. If tribal members live on the Pechanga reservation, they pay no state income tax. Individual Pechanga tribal members pay federal income tax. Pechanga tribal members living off the reservation also pay all of the same taxes as other California residents. Just as the federal government does not tax state government lottery income, it does not tax tribal government gaming income. Paying Federal Taxes— and State Taxes, too. Like every other United States citizen, individual Indian people are subject to federal income tax on all income, no matter how it is earned. If Indian people receive income from gaming because of tribal membership, that income is fully taxable. Indian people are very often subject to state income tax too, depending on whether they live on or off a reservation, and whether the source of the income is tribal or not. Tribal employers pay all required Federal and State Employer taxes. Reservations: Federal Lands Held in Trust State and local governments have no taxing authority over federal land, whether military bases, national parks, forests or other lands, such as Indian reservations. Indian reservations are federal lands held in trust for Indian Nations governed by tribal governments, in accordance with applicable federal law. http://www.pechanga-nsn.gov/page?pageId=51 Seems like they do pay alot of taxes.

Aneirin -> RE: Thankgiving grinch (11/27/2009 5:50:57 PM)
Mind, it is good that the US has reservations with different rules, for anywhere else or even anyone else, the conquered people would have to assimilate or be wiped out. If it were not for the settling and invading white people, in time, who would be the principal people, for was it not true that even they warred amongst themselves for supremacy, and there land holding, the rights of hunters. Could it be, and it pains me to say this, that the white invader were just another tribe that achieved supremacy through force of numbers and superior weaponr, that and the ability to lie without conscience.

Underumam -> RE: Thankgiving grinch (11/27/2009 5:59:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth quote: ORIGINAL: Underumam I'm feeling a bit grinchy tonight myself...lol. Could you steal winter instead of Chritmas?..........please? lol. I'm sorry hon, but you'll have to ask Lockit if I'm allowed to do that.....

Louve00 -> RE: Thankgiving grinch (11/27/2009 6:35:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kiwisub12 European adaptation of celebrating bringing home the harvest - as in, we get to eat this winter instead of starving to death = Thanksgiving. As for stealing the land from the "Native Americans" - I hate to point it out to you, OP, but the Indians are or were squatters, wandering down from Canada where they illegally immigrated from Siberia. There are no native anythings, they are all immigrants - from Africa, so does that make us all African-Americans, or African-New Zealanders, or what ever your place of birth happens to be? Ohg yeah, and lest we forget - there was plenty of lust for power, land and wimmins going on in the Indian nations. They are and were no better or no worse than white eyes. Nice try, kiwisub but a native is the original habitant of land. And when America was discovered and as it developed, the American Indian was already a habitant of that land. The indians may have been "squatters" in a land that nobody claimed and nobody habitated. But by the time the land was called America, indians were well-established dwellers of the land. And they were certainly here when the colony settlers came. I guess you could say that technically, the indians were the first true settlers of America. Hence the term..."Native Americans"?

tazzygirl -> RE: Thankgiving grinch (11/27/2009 6:55:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin Mind, it is good that the US has reservations with different rules, for anywhere else or even anyone else, the conquered people would have to assimilate or be wiped out. If it were not for the settling and invading white people, in time, who would be the principal people, for was it not true that even they warred amongst themselves for supremacy, and there land holding, the rights of hunters. Could it be, and it pains me to say this, that the white invader were just another tribe that achieved supremacy through force of numbers and superior weaponr, that and the ability to lie without conscience. The white man didnt come as a conqueror. If not for the natives, many would not have survived long in this "new country". Then the treaties started, the so called land purchases, the promises... politics as usual. Natives... we... were never treated as a conquered people, except by the military when it suited their purposes, and as an ally, again, when it suited their purposes. Bloody wars ensued. More peace treaties. The Natives were wiping out the settlers, slowly, methodically. The white man had no choice if he wanted to move west.

zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Thankgiving grinch (11/28/2009 5:20:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Underumam quote: ORIGINAL: zephyroftheNorth quote: ORIGINAL: Underumam I'm feeling a bit grinchy tonight myself...lol. Could you steal winter instead of Chritmas?..........please? lol. I'm sorry hon, but you'll have to ask Lockit if I'm allowed to do that..... Of course...sorry I didn't mean to make things awkward.

ShoreBound149 -> RE: Thankgiving grinch (11/28/2009 7:35:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: If it helps your guilt any stop by one a them 400 Indian gaming establishments in the United States and watch them print money. They are generating $18.5B on their tax free reservations. Not exactly got your facts straight. quote: Taxation of Tribal Government Gaming Just like local, state and federal governments, tribal governments are not taxed on the revenue they generate. Rather, their duty is to provide healthcare, education and social programs on the reservation, the same basic services that other governments are charged with providing. Revenues earned on the reservation help to support and build infrastructure such as housing, electricity, water and other basic services. The federal government is responsible, along with tribal governments, for the health, education and welfare of Indian people, just as it shares responsibility with state governments, for the health, education and welfare of the citizens of each state. If the IRS taxed tribal gaming income, it would only mean that the burden for providing tribal government programs that the gaming revenues provide would be shifted to the federal government and all U.S. taxpayers. If tribal members live on the Pechanga reservation, they pay no state income tax. Individual Pechanga tribal members pay federal income tax. Pechanga tribal members living off the reservation also pay all of the same taxes as other California residents. Just as the federal government does not tax state government lottery income, it does not tax tribal government gaming income. Paying Federal Taxes— and State Taxes, too. Like every other United States citizen, individual Indian people are subject to federal income tax on all income, no matter how it is earned. If Indian people receive income from gaming because of tribal membership, that income is fully taxable. Indian people are very often subject to state income tax too, depending on whether they live on or off a reservation, and whether the source of the income is tribal or not. Tribal employers pay all required Federal and State Employer taxes. Reservations: Federal Lands Held in Trust State and local governments have no taxing authority over federal land, whether military bases, national parks, forests or other lands, such as Indian reservations. Indian reservations are federal lands held in trust for Indian Nations governed by tribal governments, in accordance with applicable federal law. http://www.pechanga-nsn.gov/page?pageId=51 Seems like they do pay alot of taxes. I'm a little groggy this AM. Doesn't this say our federal government doesn't tax the revenues earned by the Indian tribal governments that run the casinos? The Indian governments than provide services to their people with the untaxed revenue? Giving them an incredibly large source of capital to dramatically improve the lives of their people? Either way ya slice it, it's a great fucking deal.

tazzygirl -> RE: Thankgiving grinch (11/28/2009 9:19:08 AM)
Did not say it wasnt. They also take care of their own, not asking the federal government for help. Reservations are their own property, not subject to the taxation, or protection, of the state or local governments. Again, they have to provide their own. They also employ many, many non tribal members, supporting the state and local governments with their income tax base. Tribal members do pay taxes. Something ambassadors and such from other countries do not. Tribes themselves do not pay taxes on income... they are required to take taxes out for all winnings.

Sanity -> RE: Thankgiving grinch (11/28/2009 10:22:08 AM)
[img]http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/mrz112509dAPR20091125041511.jpg[/img]

tazzygirl -> RE: Thankgiving grinch (11/28/2009 11:07:00 PM)
LOL... scared of something, Sanity?

Kirata -> RE: Thankgiving grinch (11/29/2009 12:20:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or I wish people would understand it better. Yeah really, ya think? Intertribal Warfare One hundred and seventy-five years ago Alexander Henry, Northwest Company trader, built a post on Park River, a western tributary of the Red River near the present international boundary in eastern Noth Dakota. Looking westward from that isolated post on September 18, 1800... this practical businessman wrote in his journal for that day: "This is a delightful country, and were it not for perpetual wars, the natives might be the happiest people on earth." Native American Wars Among the more densely populated Eastern Woodland cultures, warfare often served as a means of coping with grief and depopulation. Such conflict, commonly known as a “mourning war,” usually began at the behest of women who had lost a son or husband and desired the group's male warriors to capture individuals from other groups who could replace those they had lost. Captives might help maintain a stable population or appease the grief of bereaved relatives: if the women of the tribe so demanded, captives would be ritually tortured, sometimes to death... Trade contacts with Europeans changed this situation by creating economic motives to fight, as Indians sought European goods... In the seventeenth century, Algonquian and Iroquoian groups fought a series of “beaver wars” to control access to pelts, which could be traded for iron tools and firearms from Europe... On the Western Plains, pre‐Columbian warfare—before the introduction of horses and guns—pitted tribes against one another for control of territory and its resources, as well as for captives and honor. Indian forces marched on foot to attack rival tribes who sometimes resided in palisaded villages. Before the arrival of the horse and gun, battles could last days, and casualties could number in the hundreds... Bands of Lakota Sioux moved westward from the Eastern Woodlands and waged war against Plains residents to secure access to buffalo for subsistence and trade with Euro‐Americans... Mounted Lakota Sioux warriors pushed such Plains nations as the Blackfeet and the Crow westward, into contact with Plateau Indians, precipitating violence between groups that shared little common cultural ground by which to mediate disputes. Maybe these were "white" indians, eh? K.

Termyn8or -> RE: Thankgiving grinch (11/29/2009 12:35:51 AM)
FR What few consider, or even recognize is that this country was not started by a bunch of commoners. These were rich Men, not only in spirit, but in money. You get a couple dozen of us thinking we are doing good making good money at a job. What do you think our chances are of taking over about a third of a continent, setting up a government and having the country grow into the monster it has ? They were already here, they didn't just show up. They were just about running things anyway because of their wealth, and doing it under the auspices and consent of the King. But then the day came. Of course the endurance lasted a while, but they got totally fed up with English rule. They were a bunch of rich people who said "Let's make our own country". They were not paupers, nor servants nor apprentices in any fashion. They were well educated Men and knew exactly what they were doing. That is their claim to fame, and people do not realize that. They actually did put their money where their mouth is. To say they risked their lives, well they did here and there but really the grunt on the battlefield got the brunt of it. But they had amassed fortunes that they could lose, if their endevor would fail. They really didn't have to do shit. Some could actually classify them as somehow bent in the mind. They didn't need any of this shit. They had plenty of money, and I really can't speak to the percentages, but part of what inspired them was the will to create a free country. But also realize that they were also impelled by greed. People who have money have it for a reason. Man's inhumanity to Man seems to have no beginning. I don't know how much anybody is into real perfect logic, but if something has no beginning, it has no end. That's right. That means utopia will require destruction. This is logic and is very difficult to argue against. (that is one of the few times it is grammatically acceptable to end a sentence with such a word) More later. T

allthatjaz -> RE: Thankgiving grinch (11/29/2009 1:42:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or OK, suppose this. China's economy improves to the point where they are the preeminent world power. They come to the US and with the weapons and the manpower they just take over the US. We now live under Chinese law and there is not a dam thing we can do about it. Our rights are now defined by their whim. But since might makes right, this is OK then right ? T hmmm... China and the main group of far Eastern countries have for the last 50 years been importing goods to the US (and Europe)... now to pay for all those goods you have all worked hard, earned money and sent it back over there in return for your fridges, flat screen TV's and cars. Well this has been such a popular past time that your country ran out of money many years ago so had to borrow it back... from the far east. I believe (from reading the Financial Times) that on balance the far east owns the majority of the US (economy) already so no point waiting for the invasion. Its already happened and you lost the battle years ago (and so did we). So much for independence. Stephen on Marias' profile.

Termyn8or -> RE: Thankgiving grinch (11/29/2009 9:54:16 AM)
I'm impressed jaz. You see it too, and they did it without firing a single shot. We might be pawns in the game. We could be rooks and knights, possibly even kings or queens, but we do the bidding as set forth by the player. "Give me control of a nation's currency and I care not who writes the laws". Does anyone have any idea who said that ? That person was one of the players. White Man (with help) has pretty much turned the world into a giant game of Monopoly. And we the commoners have supported it and encouraged it for millenia. Unwittingly putting our stamp of approval on some of the most dastardly deeds on the planet. We went along with it because we were fooled, and the road back is pretty torn up. Looking at a joke over in Humor about "thankstaking", something like that "Women did all the work, Man went and hunted and fished all day". I think there is quite a bit of truth in those words. Don't get me wrong, you go hunting and fishing today and don't get anything, you start fire and make hotdogs and beans. But back then it made the difference between survival and death. Not so much fun under those conditions I would say. Also when they felled a nice size buffalo, the did not have a four wheel drive truck in which to haul it home. Nonetheless young males aspired greatly to be included in the hunt, but it must have become work at some point. Just like y'all with youngins, you have a free dishwasher. They love to wash dishes. That is until the first time you tell them to do it. Play turns into work. It would've been interesting to live in those times. Replace our current problems with those of the past. Yes things were sometimes complicated, but oh well. These tribes did not live in complete peace and harmony, I never said they did. In fact nobody does. Anyone care to speculate as to why ? Perhaps the Natives were as greedy and power hungry as the settlers. Maybe just by virtue of the fact that they had plenty of land which afforded them the option to get the hell away from each other is what made the old system work. Perhaps given the chance without intervention they would've eventually wrecked the place as badly as we did, or even worse. Nobody knows. In my former mindset I believed that overreproducing was a trait mainly shared by those of ethnicity with darker skin. The evidence was clear but is now pretty much debunked. At the forefront is the fact that White Man needed this land. Why ? There was still plenty of Europe to go around. The same argument was used against African Natives, that because they did not play the game of explore and conquer, they were therefore somehow inferior. Today I do not accept that as a valid argument. Who is to say that our way is better ? But if refuse that argument I also must refuse any bias shifted toward the settlers in Austrailia vs the Aborigines, the Jews vs the Palestinians, the.... list could probably go on for quite a way. So are we admitting that all we are are killers and squatters, but it's OK because we are simply killing the old squatters and moving in in their place ? Molding their place to our whim, fancy and needs ? If so, so be it. But by extension that means that if we ever get conquered and displaced, we should just suck it up like a Man and move on. Like with some other issues, you just can't have it both ways. If might does indeed make right, what happens when we come across somebody mightier than we ? Do we bow down and just hand over the land and get the hell out ? Thus the main problem with the whole theory. Our gang can dish it out but not take it ? One hell of a legacy I think. T

allthatjaz -> RE: Thankgiving grinch (11/29/2009 2:32:58 PM)
Termyn8or I am on your side to an extent but our wars are no different than the old tribal wars other than we have more effective killing machines. When one country is conquered by another then it may well become the property of the conqueror. When a border is drawn it is simply to define where the front line stopped. My grandfather was involved in the partitioning of India. The border was drawn at a point they could defend remembering to include all the valuable resources. He was an army officer, not a politician. There was no discussion with the natives. His actions were typical of those that have been repeated many hundreds of times throughout history. We don't own our country, we occupy it. We don't control it. We are puppets and the strings are pulled by a few people we will never meet. They continue to control us by offering tempting goodies with one hand and supplying the credit with the other. Weather we are individuals or a government we are still controlled. I don't consider my ancestors to be natives of my country (England). I have no idea about my long term routes. The Celts and the Picts ran England, Whales and Scotland after the invasion of the Danes and the Vikings but then the Romans killed or enslaved most of the English Celts and in turn our by now mixed up race tried to invade Scotland and that is just the history we know about.

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