RE: is dominance and submission a choice or is it like sexual orientation? (Full Version)

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CelticSubM -> RE: is dominance and submission a choice or is it like sexual orientation? (11/17/2009 9:55:12 PM)

I'm not sure that sexual orientation is a good thing to use as a comparison. It's fluid in much the same way: Some persons report same-sex attraction early in life. Others remain strictly heterosexual until late in life. There are bisexuals, and there is "opportunistic homosexuality", such as in prisons or on ships at sea.

I would describe dominance and submission not as sexual orientations, but as styles. I think both are basic human options for relating to others, emotionally and romantically, as well as erotically. (It's certainly no accident that much of the most conventional romance fiction contains thinly veiled d/s themes.) I believe that everyone does have the innate capability for either mode of expression, but for most persons, one or the other will seem more natural. It's not unusual for dominants, especially dominant women, to begin to explore d/s on the request of a submissive partner, out of a desire to please that partner. Who is really dominating whom in such instances?



maugseros -> RE: is dominance and submission a choice or is it like sexual orientation? (11/18/2009 7:11:33 AM)

All I can speak of is that for me it's like it is hardwired into my soul and something I've always felt, even if I didn't have the words or analagies to describe it.



Mercnbeth -> RE: is dominance and submission a choice or is it like sexual orientation? (11/18/2009 9:42:51 AM)

quote:

...is dominance and submission a choice or is it like sexual orientation?...


depending on the individual in question, either...or both.
 
"submissive" is a part of this slave's sexual orientation...the other parts are labelled "heterosexual" and "masochist".  none of those parts were specifically chosen...it is just how this slave is wired.
entering into a relationship where this slave is expected to submit in all ways was very much a choice.
 
quote:

...Curious to know whether someone can choose to be dominant in the relationship but not feel dominant, just wants to be in control...


this part is hard to relate to.  this slave perceives "controlling" a relationship the same as "dominating" it ---regardless of the labels applied to the individuals involved---and has no experience with what dominance or submission, as a "feeling", is like.  this slave understands when folks report feelings of  being powerful/helpless/joyful/relieved/comforted/turned on/gratified, etc. when dominating or submitting, but doesn't relate to either dominance or submission as a feeling in and of itself.

quote:

...Or is it more like someone needs to feel capable of being dominant before setting foot into that kind of relationship?...


the only experience this slave personally has with required dominant capability is that of someone who has owned animals.  this slave was taught that it is the owner's responsibility to keep their animals under control, fed, watered, exercised, housed and, if possible, trained to behave.  if this slave didn't feel capable of training/controlling/feeding/watering/exercising/housing an animal, it would be rather silly and unfair to both of us to attempt to own one.
as far as relating that to relationships with human beings...this slave has never been, nor desired to be, nor felt comfortable being considered "the dominant one".



breatheasone -> RE: is dominance and submission a choice or is it like sexual orientation? (11/18/2009 10:08:32 AM)

i still think its both, i believe we are all born to be who we are. So i believe everyone has a "slant" one way or the other. Then i believe when we get older we decide act on what we already feel lead to do.



antipode -> RE: is dominance and submission a choice or is it like sexual orientation? (11/18/2009 10:18:04 AM)

quote:

not feel dominant, just wants to be in control.


That's what dominant means, in control. It isn't something you choose, just as IRL some people make good managers, others do not. No need to make it complicated... I discovered, just as an example, in my vanilla marriages I wanted to exert much more control than was reasonable in a democracy [8D] so eventually gave up on vanilla and lead a D/s, or BDSM, or whatever name you want to use, life. It is more than a sexual orientation, with me, but that's highly personal. Your posting reminds me of the sub who came to me as a sub, then proceeded to dictate how she wanted everything, and what she wanted. I was eventually able to convince her she was very far from submissive, and I think she is happy with that - she moved from Ohio to Beijing - to learn Mandarin.



sweetsub1957 -> RE: is dominance and submission a choice or is it like sexual orientation? (11/18/2009 3:48:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelain20

Curious to know whether someone can choose to be dominant in the relationship but not feel dominant, just wants to be in control.

i can't speak for Dominants, but i know i was just born submissive.  i've always been that way my entire life.  I tried being Domme, but it just felt so unnatural to me I couldn't do it.  Thank goodness for Those out there who are Dom/mes.  :)

quote:


Or is it more like someone needs to feel capable of being dominant before setting foot into that kind of relationship?

Can't answer that one, except that everyone needs to start somewhere.  Maybe that's what mentors are for.



Hierodule -> RE: is dominance and submission a choice or is it like sexual orientation? (11/18/2009 4:59:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Veda

It seems to me that there are separate and independent "channels" to everyone's sexuality: Sex/Gender/Sexuality/Role  each on a continuum between poles.  Like a set of dials that define who you are and what you desire.  Flat-earth vanilla thinking collapses all these into two standard issue sets and labels everything else strange or wrong. Therefore Male/Masculine/Hetero/Dominant and Female/Feminine/Hetero/Submissive are OK. But you really need all the dials and Dom/sub is still often left out.  It's not enough to say someone is a gay male - is he a top or a bottom, masculine or not? And to what degree? There are women who are not into being highly feminine but are still hetero and may be inclined to either top or bottom. 

So, direct to your question, I do think D/s is a normal feature of sexuality, with a lot of variation in the spectrum. One not often discussed outside of gay circles because it is assumed to be sex based. As one friend told me he was asked at a club - "If you were a book, would you be on the top shelf or the bottom". Obviously it makes a difference.



I like this.



Hierodule -> RE: is dominance and submission a choice or is it like sexual orientation? (11/18/2009 5:16:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PainfullyCurious
As a matter of fact, the only behaviors that might be seen as dominant have been in attempt to get myself into a submissive position. You know, pull a few arm hairs out in hopes of getting put in my place for having done it...



I have done that and worse too. Like starting a physical fight with a male friend when we were both drunk so he would have to pin me down. Or verbaly abusing boyfriends  (you know call them a little bitch and stuff) to try to get them to act like a man. I guess that's the closest I've come to "Domming" someone. Butgod how manipulative and passive agressive. I think/hope I'm a better person now that I "came-out" as a sub.

As to the question: I did have submissive fantasies before I knew what sex was. But I'm pretty sure they stemmed from events in my early childhood. So I could have been born this way or it could have happened when I was very young. Or a little of both. Not really sure.

I don't think anyone can really choose what gets them off sexually. As AquaticSub said you can't fake it. You can go through the motions, but it the end, either it gets you off or doesn't. So in that way it isn't a choice. But it might be a sort of condition, brought on by factors after birth, yet not within the individual's control.



stella41b -> RE: is dominance and submission a choice or is it like sexual orientation? (11/18/2009 7:29:10 PM)

FR

The way I see it being dominant or being submissive hasn't got anything to do with your sexual orientation and in fact I doubt that it's got very much to do with sex at all.

The way I see it it's got much more to do with the way in which we relate to others on a personal, intimate level and how we feel most comfortable in showing and expressing our feelings towards someone who means something to us with whom we share a certain degree of emotional and physical intimacy.

It can have a basis which is either emotional or psychological, acquired as a result of an experience which we went through in our childhood, or in the past or a previous relationship, or it can indeed be spiritual, or just as emotional and psychological and inborn or innate, triggered in certain situations in certain relationships with certain people.

I personally believe that the tendency to dominate or submit in a relationship with someone else is highly individual, complex, and for most people takes some time, some experimentation, a few intimate experiences or even relationships or a certain amount of interaction with others before we can properly work out what makes this tendency tick within us, and with whom.

This is why just because you have say a dominant heterosexual male and a submissive heterosexual female it's not always guaranteed that they are able to relate to each other with any degree of success. It's not that simple, and usually both have to find that specific dominant or submissive who they can relate to in a way in which they feel comfortable.

This is why I am sceptical about BDSM checklists. You might as well both draw up your own individual shopping list and compare the items you've written down. 'Do you like bread?' 'Live for it.' 'Spinach?' 'Hard limit!' The actual information you really need is to actually spend time with the other person, seeing how they live, and experiencing how they interact and relate to you, and how you relate to them, whether you can accept each other, live with each other, understand each other and communicate with each other.

And until you know all of these things, that little box in the top right hand corner of their profile is meaningless and all you are looking at is just another person.



KateyCaine -> RE: is dominance and submission a choice or is it like sexual orientation? (11/18/2009 8:44:57 PM)

For me, it is like brown eyes or right-handedness - a naturally occuring variant; the way i was born, as opposed to a choice i have made to be a certain way.

k.



PainfullyCurious -> RE: is dominance and submission a choice or is it like sexual orientation? (11/19/2009 3:49:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule


I have done that and worse too. Like starting a physical fight with a male friend when we were both drunk so he would have to pin me down. Or verbaly abusing boyfriends  (you know call them a little bitch and stuff) to try to get them to act like a man. I guess that's the closest I've come to "Domming" someone. Butgod how manipulative and passive agressive. I think/hope I'm a better person now that I "came-out" as a sub.



Guilty of that too. Always in a flirtatious way though... I tend to say, "I don't think you have the balls..." but always with a huge smile on my face.



LadyAngelika -> RE: is dominance and submission a choice or is it like sexual orientation? (11/19/2009 10:09:31 PM)

quote:

Curious to know whether someone can choose to be dominant in the relationship but not feel dominant, just wants to be in control.

Or is it more like someone needs to feel capable of being dominant before setting foot into that kind of relationship?


I just have a dominant personality. I have a lot of authority in all areas of my life, work, school, friends, family. I just assume it is natural that I have it in my romantic relationships.

- LA



hopelesslyInvo -> RE: is dominance and submission a choice or is it like sexual orientation? (11/19/2009 11:03:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CelticSubM

I'm not sure that sexual orientation is a good thing to use as a comparison. It's fluid in much the same way: Some persons report same-sex attraction early in life. Others remain strictly heterosexual until late in life. There are bisexuals, and there is "opportunistic homosexuality", such as in prisons or on ships at sea.

I would describe dominance and submission not as sexual orientations, but as styles. I think both are basic human options for relating to others, emotionally and romantically, as well as erotically. (It's certainly no accident that much of the most conventional romance fiction contains thinly veiled d/s themes.) I believe that everyone does have the innate capability for either mode of expression, but for most persons, one or the other will seem more natural. It's not unusual for dominants, especially dominant women, to begin to explore d/s on the request of a submissive partner, out of a desire to please that partner. Who is really dominating whom in such instances?


sexual orientation is a perfect to compare to dominance and submission to, only slight issue is that dominance and submission are relative whereas orientation is absolute. (leaving out the concept of pansexuals not knowing what the hell they want until they see it being counted as an orientation)

find me the most dominant woman you know and i'll pit her with a lion that's submissive amongst their pack, then we'll see who gets beaten into submission.  that's the issue of relativity.  dominance and submission don't need each other, if you're submissive you'll still be submissive when you're around another submissive, if you're dominant you'll still be dominant when you around another person who's dominant. 

you don't choose those things, and you don't choose which trait you have in what amount.  that's nature.

much like orientation as well, you don't choose what you'll want to be attracted to.  you might be submissive but be attracted to the idea of having control, you might be attracted to giving up control when normally you can't seem to stop trying to run others lives.  a lot of it  is like orientation and out of your control to decide what you'll end up attracted to or wanting.  but this next part... it's completely your choice.

in bdsm we choose dominant roles and submissive roles, for short times, or extended times.  people tend to go with the obvious role to reflect the obvious round hole / square peg common sense equation, but it's a choice none the less in what we do.  if it wasn't a choice, it'd be rape; albeit "natural, unavoidable, and not very logical rape", but still rape.

much like orientation, we can choose the role that goes against our desires, the domineering can choose to accept domination, the straight can choose to accept sex with the same gender; hence forced bi/forced straight/forced anything. 

forced bi sounds a lot like rape unless you look at it in the same way as before; you're making a choice.  by choosing to accept the whims of someone else, and choosing to follow through with them even when they go against what you want... in the end, it's you that's forcing yourself in "forced bi", it's kind of like raping yourself or as close as you can get to such a concept.

or in short.

orientation is a great way to look at the nature of being submissive or dominant / wanting to have control or have someone else control
having sex is a great way to look at the roles of a submissive or a dominant / choosing to keep control or give someone else control
and claiming to know a way to willfully rape yourself is a great way to make people think you're nuts



aldompdx -> RE: is dominance and submission a choice or is it like sexual orientation? (11/20/2009 11:05:09 AM)

Does one always feel the same way about everything in life? There are many different levels or layers of control/surrender. One never has the same degree of bias at every level. Is being a "switch" a choice or one's nature? It is both, and neither, depending upon the specific circumstances. You can only know what is your reality through greater self awareness. As Plato quoted Socrates, "First know thyself."

Sometimes a person must do things they would rather not. The relationship of employment by another for money is a form of surrender. An employee is duty bound to serve in the best interests of their employer. Some "dominant" people are so locked into employment as their means for survival that they ignore other means by which they can earn income without such surrender.



Musicmystery -> RE: is dominance and submission a choice or is it like sexual orientation? (11/20/2009 11:20:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelain20

Curious to know whether someone can choose to be dominant in the relationship but not feel dominant, just wants to be in control.

Or is it more like someone needs to feel capable of being dominant before setting foot into that kind of relationship?



Well, in my case, at work or "play," I never set out to be in control. I just always ended up that way, time and time again.

After a while, I took note and started working with reality.



LaTigresse -> RE: is dominance and submission a choice or is it like sexual orientation? (11/20/2009 11:45:38 AM)

I could pretend to submit and do a fairly passable impersonation of it. I would be miserable and sooner or later, I would bust out of my skin (so to speak), and people would get hurt. I tried being the good submissive little housewife that was expected of me and I made everyone miserable.

I simply will not allow anyone else to have control over my life choices. And for whatever reason I end up being the one that runs the show. This job is a prime example. I didn't start working here with the thought of managing. I didn't ask for the promotion. Hell I didn't even think I was qualified to do this job! It's just natural for me to be the one in charge.

My family, work, everyone, ends up looking to me to plan, decide, lead the charge, or whatever. It is my personality and what works for me.



catize -> RE: is dominance and submission a choice or is it like sexual orientation? (11/21/2009 11:54:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

~Fast Reply~

I think you are splitting hairs a bit. A gay man can choose to have sex with a woman, regardless of how much he enjoys it. I regard dominance and submission as similiar to sexual orientation.


I think that it is a combination of many things. Some of it may be inherent in our personalities but we also should consider what and how we were taught along the way. When I was young I was very passive, and that trait was encouraged by my parents. However, once I was out in the world and on my own, I made the decision to learn ways to be more in control of things in general. It seemed to me, at first, to be a survival skill, but I also realized that in many areas I thrived when in the position of decision maker and leader.
It is only in my intimate relationships that submission feels right. So if we are going to compare D/s orientation to sexuality, perhaps I am bi-dominant or bi-submissive?



ExSteelAgain -> RE: is dominance and submission a choice or is it like sexual orientation? (11/21/2009 12:30:35 PM)

It’s a fallacy to correlate D/s orientations to employment and life in general. There are too many cases of people being one thing in their open life and employment while being the opposite in private D/s play. The boss who likes to submit and so on. Likewise, the good peasant may be quite the opposite in private.



scattered -> RE: is dominance and submission a choice or is it like sexual orientation? (11/21/2009 2:13:01 PM)

quote:



ORIGINAL: Hierodule


I have done that and worse too. Like starting a physical fight with a male friend when we were both drunk so he would have to pin me down. Or verbaly abusing boyfriends  (you know call them a little bitch and stuff) to try to get them to act like a man. I guess that's the closest I've come to "Domming" someone. Butgod how manipulative and passive agressive. I think/hope I'm a better person now that I "came-out" as a sub.


I've done this too. I have a friend whose grammar isn't the greatest and for a while I would jump in and correct him mid-sentence all the time, because sometimes in response he would grab hold of me and shove me or shake me, and even that was enough to get me to keep bugging the shit out of him. 



topleaseyou555 -> RE: is dominance and submission a choice or is it like sexual orientation? (11/21/2009 4:16:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: maugseros

All I can speak of is that for me it's like it is hardwired into my soul and something I've always felt, even if I didn't have the words or analagies to describe it.


this



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