Need info (Full Version)

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paz -> Need info (11/2/2009 4:55:02 PM)

I am in the process of setting up a dungeon in the Stoke on trent area.

I would love do set out as a legitamite business and need some help.

Is there anyone out there that have been through the same problems and issues, insurance etc, that could set me right. I'm trying my hardest to do what i love as a business, any help in this area would be much apreciated.

This is going to be a great asset to all like minded persons once established, there will be be nothing quite like what i have in mind in the midlands.

Please help.

Paz




impishlilhellcat -> RE: Need info (11/2/2009 5:24:20 PM)

Your Local library should have some great books on the business side of things.




DavanKael -> RE: Need info (11/2/2009 6:34:31 PM)

Definitely speak with an attorney about waivers, etc.
  Davan




DesFIP -> RE: Need info (11/2/2009 7:28:30 PM)

Talk to a solicitor who specializes in business law. You need to know what the zoning laws are concerning adult businesses. Also parking, noise, and other such concerns.




sincityprincess -> RE: Need info (11/2/2009 9:21:29 PM)

I commend you on wanting to do this. There aren't very many places that offer public dungeons and I know there are a lot of people who would love this. I can give you a little bit of insight to some of the obstacles you may run up against. My former Master and I actually considered investing in a similar venture in Las Vegas. You would think in Sin City that it would be the easiest place to open a business of pleasure, but there are a lot of things that made it just not a good business venture for us.

--the first and hardest to overcome is that, even though it would seem to most here that it would really just be a grown-up playground, it is hard to convince your local city planners that it is not a place for people to have sex. The fact that even though actual intercourse isn't part of what you are charging for is of little meaning to them--at some level it is inevitable that the PTB's (powers that be) will know that people do obtain sexual gratification from the activities taking place in your establishment. Once you start mixing money and anything related to sex, you are essentially running a brothel.

--in the event you cross hurdle #1, you then have the monumental task of getting it insured. A place of business where people are paying money to partake in activities that have even the slightest possibility of injury or worse is a very hard sell to an underwriter. In this economy an insurance company is going to be even more cautious about entering into a contract with a business that at some point will almost certainly have litigation involved. Additionally, if you have professionals operating the more dangerous equipment like Electro-Stims or suspension bondage apparatuses or Pro-Dommes on site you now have what the po-po see as hookers; plus as employees they would be subject to OSHA standards and entitled to Workman's Comp if they were injured on the job--pretty interesting picturesque to imagine having to fill out an injury report explaining how you wrenched your back while riding a Congressman during Pony Play.

--Because of the fact that there is the possibility of bodily fluids being exchanged (even sweat and/or saliva like at a gym or spa) you will have to get licensed by the health department. If you have no way of regulating the sanitation than they probably won't even give you the time of day either. You would have to determine how to keep your toys clean & sterile when you wouldn't always be able to know where they have been. (Shudder! [:'(] )

--At this point, you have to consider if the dungeon itself is enough to sustain a full time business? Many people who try this kind of business realize that it is pretty hard to find a hearty enough group of kinksters to keep a business like this above water. They either prefer to play in private and have their own equipment at home or will easily tire with driving across town (or further) to try out a St. Andrews cross then have to drive all the way back home to have sex. And if you provide a place for them to have sex, well, then you are back at square one. Places like Vegas have tried to cater to tourists who want to "live out their fantasies" while on vacation, but usually tourists want to "look" not pay to participate. Plus, if it becomes known as a "touristy" place then the locals really stay away, and tourist season even in a place like Las Vegas only lasts part of the year and must be supplemented with a strong local clientele to thrive. Some have tried to combine a dungeon with bar or restaurant but then you have even more liability issues to deal with and it becomes a mess.

--There are places who opt for the "private club" atmosphere which allows you to skirt some of the red tape involved with a regular walk-in type of business, they are disguised as health clubs, spas, members only places or even therapeutic reliefs. But it won't be long before the PTB's get wise to you and start staging sting ops to catch the first thing you ever do wrong. For instance, you can't charge a cover charge for a private party--only accept donations--but then you are at risk for a bunch of looky-loos who don't want to pay for showing up & getting their rocks off. Problem with having a "private" club is how to advertise and get patrons. You often have to rely on free liquor store newspapers and internet ads. If you advertise too much you will either eat up your profits in advertising or it would only convince the PTB's that you are actually a regular business. If, heaven forbid, you had a psycho-path show up and some girl ended up kidnapped or raped, you could be liable. And, because hookers know where to find horny men they would likely begin conducting business in, outside or nearby your business and the cops and local bible beaters would likely pen you as the cause of their activities not the landing point of activities that would be going on anyway.

--If after all of this, you could figure out a way to get the doors open there would be an added expense of maintaining the equipment and replacing things that would inevitably wear out quicker when you have several dozens of people using things that are usually constructed to be used by only one or two.

--I have seen some Bed & Breakfasts that have "theme" rooms, namely dungeons. This seems to me like the easiest way to get your business off the ground but then you have a quantity issue. You would only be able to accomodate however many people could sleep in your home at a time and would have to charge a pretty penny to turn a profit at that rate. Then you face the challenge again of how to attract a very slim niche of the population. Even kinksters would rather have a 4-star resort for $300 a night than to sleep in your guest room just for an opportunity to spank their girlfriends on a real spanking bench.

I really really am not trying to be a Negative Nelly; I would love to see you succeed in this business venture. I am just giving you some things to consider from someone who has been there. Great concept on paper...a lot more difficult to turn into reality. But truly best luck to you.




allthatjaz -> RE: Need info (11/3/2009 2:18:04 AM)

Hi paz.... waves from the UK
Yes I have set up 3 dungeons in the UK as well as a BDSM club.
Are you setting up a dungeon for hire business? or are you running the dungeon?
Are you doing this from an already commercial premises or are you doing it from your own dwelling?
You say insurance etc... whats the etc?
If this is not presently a commercial building then you will need planning permission to turn it into commercial use.
All the relevant commercial insurance for visitors and employees. If your building has access for the public you need to insure you have adequate accessibility for disabled. You will need all the relevant statuary requirements including fire and evacuation. You will need fire extinguishers. Pat testing of electric items and a gas safety certificate if you have gas. All of this is to protect yourself from one of your customers suing you if they have an accident on your premises. You will then have to let your local council know and apply for relevant licences for the operation you are going to run.
Things to be aware of are... If you have more than one Mistress in a dungeon with a paying client then the law classes this as a brothel and you are breaking the law.
If you are not classed as a private club then you will need a sex license or a nudity license. Breaking this law carries heavy penalties.

If you are renting a premises that already has commercial use then the venue owner should have all of these requirements in place but if you break the law with for e.g two Mistresses in the dungeon with one paying client, the onus will fall on the venue owner and he will be closed down.

There are some real draw backs to what you want to do because once the council are aware they will be watching you very carefully and will be forever on your doorstep. If you were in London then it would be much easier but being where you are I wouldn't recommend this.

You also need to think about neighbors, complaints, parking and of course the local press.

My only strong advice is to rent a building that is already classified for commercial use. I have lots of experience under my belt and I personally would not touch a private dwelling with a barge pole.




pompeii -> RE: Need info (11/3/2009 6:44:09 AM)

Since sex might be involved (or at least, the city might think so), it has been my understanding (rightly or not) that if you run the "business" as a members-only "club", then you have more leeway in things than if it's a bona-fide for-profit business.

Of course, this "club" is a charade - but it seems, to me, that is how they run 'em around here ... (other folks might know the 'club versus profit' argument better).




Moonhead -> RE: Need info (11/3/2009 7:48:09 AM)

Might it be possible to find somebody who used to be involved with the Desyre Foundation? Them and Club Republique were a pretty big deal in Stoke at one point, so they could probably give you some help if anybody who was involved is still about.
(I know that Ishmael Skyes mentions them a lot in Free Wealin': perhaps he could put you in touch with some of the ex members if you asked him nicely?)




mnottertail -> RE: Need info (11/3/2009 7:50:37 AM)

maybe draw LadyEllen's attention to this.

Ron




allthatjaz -> RE: Need info (11/3/2009 9:27:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pompeii

Since sex might be involved (or at least, the city might think so), it has been my understanding (rightly or not) that if you run the "business" as a members-only "club", then you have more leeway in things than if it's a bona-fide for-profit business.

Of course, this "club" is a charade - but it seems, to me, that is how they run 'em around here ... (other folks might know the 'club versus profit' argument better).



Absolutely agree and that is what most smaller venues do here but if you are going to run it as a legitimate business then you have to deal with the same legislation as far as the safety of your customers.
We made a sister club to our bigger open door club and we made it members only. We had to read through a heap of red tape to make sure we were doing this legitimately. Things like having to of become a member at least 24 hours before entry and having to take proven details of who these members are and keeping a full database of those members. Unfortunately in the BDSM community people prefer to keep their ID anonymous. I have been to private clubs that allow you to become a member on the night and don't ask for ID but they are not legitimate private clubs because the law clearly states that you can not work that way.
The benefit of a private club is you can have lock down and so get away with anything sexual or people walking around naked.
You can still end up with an undercover police officer locked in with you though.

a tip to the op.... Once you go 1% legitimate you have to go 100%
Here are some good reasons not to go legit.
Remember KinkFest decided they were going to come clean with the local council about what they would be doing? Virtually every workshop was banned and on the day we ended up with a huge police presence. Remember the Sphinx in Farnborough? that was as legitimate as you get and was a multi functional dungeon with some great prospects until two Mistresses were on the premises on the day a paying client turned up and they were being watched. They ended up losing everything and their escapades made headline news.

It would be well worth you making contact with The Spanner Trust. They are a great bunch of people that work diligently for people like you and me and they will be able to give you a whole heap of information that would be hard to obtain otherwise.




Moonhead -> RE: Need info (11/3/2009 2:47:18 PM)

The Spanner Trust are a very good idea: I'm ashamed I didn't think to mention them, and you're dead right that Paz should have a word with them.




Moonhead -> RE: Need info (11/6/2009 2:49:05 PM)

paz, have you tried asking TheBDSMLoft? That's somebody whose running a dungeon in Stoke already.




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