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is this right or wrong? - 10/28/2009 11:06:37 PM

fadedshadow

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this is a question somewhat inspired by the boondock saints movie but do you think people who kill bad people are good or bad? why or why not?

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RE: is this right or wrong? - 10/28/2009 11:40:06 PM

GreedyTop

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define bad?

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RE: is this right or wrong? - 10/29/2009 4:18:26 AM

Viridana

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There is good and bad in every person. And "good" and "bad" can be very complicated concepts depending on the situation at hand.

< Message edited by Viridana -- 10/29/2009 4:19:46 AM >

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RE: is this right or wrong? - 10/29/2009 4:34:11 AM

Aneirin

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Two wrongs don't make a right, but to kill another human being, you are in effect wiping out the history of a person, all that love and energy exchanged between the victim and where they came from, the times, they weren't 'bad'. Their families, their loved ones, all the people that person has touched in their lives, their death will take something away from them. It is not just about stopping someone functioning and denying them a future.Someone dies we all feel it, if someone dies violently, we feel it more, and those that have been there on that, you know. Maybe killing hardens the person to their own fate, with each kill, they kill themself.

Everyone who is bad, has the capacity to be good, and by denying a person a living future, you are denying that person to be good.

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RE: is this right or wrong? - 10/29/2009 4:50:59 AM

Starbuck09

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It depends entirely on what you think constitutes a bad guy. Outside of Hollywood piffle there are almost never good and bad guys there are just guys. Brave, skillful, dedicated and selfless by all means but morally entirely subjective to their circumstances. A British soldier fighting the Taliban is good by the standards of his own society by those of the Taliban clearly he is not.

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RE: is this right or wrong? - 10/29/2009 5:28:31 AM

devilishpixie

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I think that you can be justified in murder, if the murder is one of 3 things:

1. Self-Defense. It is much easier to kill somebody and subdue them, and without proper training, one may have no choice but to kill. Also, many times the original intent of the person trying to escape is just to escape or 'knock out' their attacker, but the killing is unintentional.

2. In an impossible scenario. For example, if someone said to you, kill this person or I will blow up this schoolbus full of orphans, you're going to have to kill the person, or feel the guilt of letting the orphans die. Some scenarios are just impossible like that.

3. If the person killed/raped/etc your or one of your family members or friends. If somebody did something so vile to you or those you love that you'd be willing to die to kill them, then it's ok, because you probably will die of the death penalty for doing so.

This then leads to the question, is the death penalty simply state sanctioned murder? Why or why not?

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RE: is this right or wrong? - 10/29/2009 5:32:04 AM

Starbuck09

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Would it not be state sanctioned punishment Pixie? The question is not whether or not it is murder but whether death is an acceptable punishment for certain crimes. Again the response will be entirely subjective depending on who and where you ask.

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RE: is this right or wrong? - 10/29/2009 5:34:18 AM

Rochsub2009

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fadedshadow
... do you think people who kill bad people are good or bad?

Yes.

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RE: is this right or wrong? - 10/29/2009 5:44:35 AM

devilishpixie

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Starbucks, I used the term state sanctioned murder for a reason because I dont see as punishment but just that murder. That doesn't mean it isn't justifiable that again that doesn't change what it is either.

A popular bumper sticker says, "We kill people to show people that killing people is wrong." The slogan is short, simple, and to the point. Irony is a wonderful thing.

< Message edited by devilishpixie -- 10/29/2009 5:46:45 AM >

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RE: is this right or wrong? - 10/29/2009 6:03:06 AM

Aneirin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Starbuck09

It depends entirely on what you think constitutes a bad guy. Outside of Hollywood piffle there are almost never good and bad guys there are just guys. Brave, skillful, dedicated and selfless by all means but morally entirely subjective to their circumstances. A British soldier fighting the Taliban is good by the standards of his own society by those of the Taliban clearly he is not.

A british soldier in Afghanistan, Iraq or wherever there is conflict, kills because it is their job to kill if the enemy cannot be stopped in any other way. I am sure if one asks a soldier if they wanted to kill, their answer on the whole would be no, because when you do so, you put yourself at risk of being killed too, and soldiers like enemies have families they wish to go home to when it's all over. I am of course against the war in Afghanistan, as I was with the invasion of Iraq. Politicians, it's easy for them to put others lives at risk, very easy when it is not your own or your families.

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RE: is this right or wrong? - 10/29/2009 6:19:35 AM

Starbuck09

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Precisely Aneirin a soldier kills because he has chosen to enter a profession wherby to protect the interests of his nation [as determined by it's ruling government]. In the eyes of the nation he is serving he is good. In the eyes of his enemies he is not therefore the label of right and wrong is entirely subjective. I'm sorry Aneirin but I am not quite sure what you are trying to say.

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RE: is this right or wrong? - 10/29/2009 6:24:30 AM

Starbuck09

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Exactly Pixie though you believe execution to be nothing short of murder there are millions of people who disagree. Neither side is right as such but they both believe themselves to be right which is entirely different. In the context of the original question therefore the answer is whatever you be;ieve there is not and can never be a definitive answer.

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RE: is this right or wrong? - 10/29/2009 6:27:01 AM

Moonhead

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I'm with Vridana and Starbuck09: any judgement on whether somebody's a bad person is going to be subjective, and even given that saying that somebody deserves killing for being a bad person is pretty ridiculous.

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RE: is this right or wrong? - 10/29/2009 6:30:52 AM

SL4V3M4YB3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: devilishpixie
2. In an impossible scenario. For example, if someone said to you, kill this person or I will blow up this schoolbus full of orphans, you're going to have to kill the person, or feel the guilt of letting the orphans die. Some scenarios are just impossible like that.

What if the person they wanted you to kill was a US government official or scientist required to maintain US security at a vulnerable instillation? You should perhaps question why anyone would want you to kill one person; they obviously have an agenda you don't know about which could be worse than the thing they are asking you to do. In any case you can never weigh up one life lost versus one hundred lives lost because you don’t know what great things that one life could be capable of in the future. The bus load of orphans may turn into a bus load of future criminals: individual lives are too complex to weigh up the benefits of one person existing over another.

quote:

3. If the person killed/raped/etc your or one of your family members or friends. If somebody did something so vile to you or those you love that you'd be willing to die to kill them, then it's ok, because you probably will die of the death penalty for doing so.

You can only speak for yourself regarding such matters and not perpetuate the myth that everyone suffering from such crimes would resort to killing or wanting to kill. I’ve seen victims and the families of victims speak of forgiving those that committed crimes against them, so I know this isn’t as two dimensional as you are making out.

quote:

This then leads to the question, is the death penalty simply state sanctioned murder? Why or why not?[/color]

The only answer to that is yes. It is state sanctioned murder because nobody has the right to take life according to the laws in civilised society thus why should civilised society have such a right, is it above its own laws? If it is then that is hypocritical.

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RE: is this right or wrong? - 10/29/2009 6:41:05 AM

devilishpixie

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I was speaking only for myself that is why I started out my post with "I think.."

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RE: is this right or wrong? - 10/29/2009 6:58:24 AM

Termyn8or

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FR

Thinking in terms of right and wrong no longer works today. Threads like this are proof. Think of what some posters have said - boils down to "Who's side are you on ?".

That's OK though. The problem will rectify itself, because those who will not kill are more likely to die. Assailants in the home, carjackers, etc., as far as I am concerned they are fair game. Rapists, murderers all OK for the shoot.

And note, those who won't kill need to be saved by those who do. If nobody who is "good" will kill, eventually the world will be full of people, good or bad, who will. I will refrain from going further at this time - it has all been said before.

T

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RE: is this right or wrong? - 10/29/2009 7:19:13 AM

Starbuck09

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Termyn8or I don't understand what you are saying why does this thread illustrate that thinking in terms of right and wrong is obsolete. Right and wrong are essential to all societies it is simply important to remember that what you deem right is not universally so.

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RE: is this right or wrong? - 10/29/2009 7:31:05 AM

DesFIP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
That's OK though. The problem will rectify itself, because those who will not kill are more likely to die. Assailants in the home, carjackers, etc., as far as I am concerned they are fair game. Rapists, murderers all OK for the shoot.

Term, do you really face this on a daily basis? Wow, just, wow.

I don't remember to lock the door most of the time. I've gotten out of the car, left it running and come back after shopping to find it safe. In the 20 years I've lived here there have been 3 murders. One a woman who claimed she was being abused by her husband. One a drug deal being held here by NYC drug dealers. And one a murder/suicide, man stalked his ex.

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RE: is this right or wrong? - 10/29/2009 7:48:24 AM

SL4V3M4YB3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: devilishpixie
I was speaking only for myself that is why I started out my post with "I think.."

If that is so may I suggest the following should be rephrased accordingly:

quote:

3. If the person killed/raped/etc your or one of your family members or friends. If somebody did something so vile to you or those you love that you'd be willing to die to kill them, then it's ok, because you probably will die of the death penalty for doing so.

quote:

3. If the person killed/raped/etc my family or one of my family members or friends. If someone did something so vile to me or those I love that I'd be willing to die to kill them, then it's ok, because I will probably die of the death penalty for doing so."

This way I wouldn't be getting so confused about what you think rather than what you think others think. Putting the 'I think' disclaimer at the start won't stop others from telling you what you assume about others in your thoughts could be wrong.

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 10/29/2009 7:54:25 AM >

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RE: is this right or wrong? - 10/29/2009 8:07:03 AM

SL4V3M4YB3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
And note, those who won't kill need to be saved by those who do. If nobody who is "good" will kill, eventually the world will be full of people, good or bad, who will. I will refrain from going further at this time - it has all been said before.

There is little evidence of that in the modern era the last time any statement like that could be justified was WW2.

Also how many people have tried to save people by killing only to find they make the situation worse by making other people hold grudges? I'm tired of this ‘hawks save the doves’ crap there is just as many times where such hawks have been released through doves negotiating. Unfortunately the more the hawks act the less room the doves have in such negotiations and the less credible they seem. Peace is based on the good intentions from both sides and nothing else will lead to it. People may think they can secure peace through violence but someone will always be holding resentment and hostility for a later date.

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 10/29/2009 8:08:14 AM >

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