Rationalizing red flags

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oceanwynds1 -> Rationalizing red flags (10/22/2009 4:22:42 AM)
Life has taught me well, or so i thought. At my age i should have known better, but rationalizing came into play. Now i cannot trust my ownself in how i will act in any type of relationship. I feel like humpty dumpty and shattered into pieces and i hold myself in total accountability. Right now i do not know how to get my dignity back or self-respect. Everything i have learned was discarded by me and i cant trust my thinking any more. I do not know how to begin to put my pieces together, and because of my lack of trusting and having faith in myself, i find myself now very unsteady. I will not seek a Dom at this time, because i have to find me again. I have to find the trust in me again. This will take a long time, and i am in no hurry to enter another relationship. I don't blame him, because i should have known better. I failed myself. How do i begin walking through my ruins? thank you all for your advice oceanwynds

sirsholly -> RE: Rationalizing red flags (10/22/2009 4:54:03 AM)
quote: i find myself now very unsteady. How do i begin walking through my ruins? One tiny baby step at a time. Do one thing every day that scares you, and do not deny the fear because you think it is silly. When i was at my lowest point i was afraid to get the mail. I was in a state of isolation and mail was an interference to my protective shell. It sounds silly to you certainly, but to me it was a real fear. I set the goal on day one to bring it in. Day two, bring it in and actually look at it....and so went the baby steps, until i realized i was getting a tiny bit stronger, one day at a time. You will not regain your self esteem overnight. But you can take a tiny step toward it today. Ocean...you CAN di it!!!

oceanwynds1 -> RE: Rationalizing red flags (10/22/2009 5:22:15 AM)
Thank you Sirsholly Your advice makes perfect sense. Tomorrow i have to take a big step though, since i am flying out of Miami to Cabo, Mexico. i never been Mexico, but that is where my daughter is getting married. I need to put 'my mommy can do anything hat' and do it. The ocean will be of help to me though, and i will be totally there for this joyous occassion. i tend to isolate too, and going out of my home is very hard now. oceanwynds

lovingpet -> RE: Rationalizing red flags (10/22/2009 5:24:14 AM)
I have been nearly exactly where you are OP and I can assure you it is no small thing to fix. In case it isn't painfully obvious, I am a nearly naive, very trusting soul and I just tend to not see the dangers right in front of me. I am much better than I used to be, but not remotely as cautious and perhaps as cynical as I need to be. Since I couldn't necessarily trust my own impressions of people, I have come to knit a network of very wise people who care very much for my well being to help me. Situations and people that I am having trouble discerning or that are too important to screw up, I take these to someone among that group. I am very careful to run prospects through someone else's filter. I may or may not accept what they see, but it is an extra assurance when needed and a way to have to own my decision. It takes a lot of time to find these kinds of people, but it is well worth it. How do you move on. You get up, dust yourself off, and go forward. Lean on those who care about you. Take good care of yourself. Forgive yourself. One day at a time dear girl. hugs lovingpet

CarrieO -> RE: Rationalizing red flags (10/22/2009 5:28:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: oceanwynds1 How do i begin walking through my ruins? I don't know you or the situation that brought you to this place of failure. I can't address that, but I would like to offer something in regards to the question quoted above. How do you begin? Just as you said...by finding who you are again. By realizing that only you can make this journey back to self. One of the easiest things to do would be to fall back on allowing another person to make things right...make you right. I had a good friend who recently went through a tough divorce to take the time and do the work required to become a whole person again instead of jumping into the next relationship...the next drama. She didn't listen and now she is repeating the same mistakes and hasn't learned from choices made. It may sound silly to say this but...everything that happens can be seen as a chance for learning and growth. You're the only one who can make the decision to grow from this experience. There are many books out there that offer a wealth of information and advice on how to move forward after a negative experience. One thing they generally have in common is the understanding that, for a time, it's not only okay but almost a necessity to confront the demons of our past in order to realize they have no power. It sounds like this is what you're starting to do...I wish you only the best in that. Just remember, it's not a forever place...confront and move forward. Ask for help when needed...seek guidance if you can...don't swallow your self again. Make the steps to find what pleases you...what gives meaning...no matter how small it may seem, always be sure the goal is to move forward. Trust me, you aren't the only one who has had a dark night of the soul...and it seems you aren't alone or without friends here. I wish you the best.

oceanwynds1 -> RE: Rationalizing red flags (10/22/2009 5:39:07 AM)
Thank you loving pet:) CarriO, i have known so many of these things you spoke of, and this is one thing that makes me angry at myself. I should have known better. I do not trust myself at this time because of that, and will not even consider speaking to a Dom at this time. I do not have many Dominate friends, and the only one i have is an ex Sir. I will not turn to him either. I have to rebuild all that I built when my husband died. I have to discover why i rationalized the red flags. I take full responsibility for this situation. As in losing my husband, i know the journey will be difficult and hard, and one i will take again by myself. Thank you for your posting and offering me your welcome advice. oceanwynds edit to add: i know i need to forgive myself too

Acer49 -> RE: Rationalizing red flags (10/22/2009 5:46:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: oceanwynds1 Life has taught me well, or so i thought. At my age i should have known better, but rationalizing came into play. Now i cannot trust my ownself in how i will act in any type of relationship. I feel like humpty dumpty and shattered into pieces and i hold myself in total accountability. Right now i do not know how to get my dignity back or self-respect. Everything i have learned was discarded by me and i cant trust my thinking any more. I do not know how to begin to put my pieces together, and because of my lack of trusting and having faith in myself, i find myself now very unsteady. I will not seek a Dom at this time, because i have to find me again. I have to find the trust in me again. This will take a long time, and i am in no hurry to enter another relationship. I don't blame him, because i should have known better. I failed myself. How do i begin walking through my ruins? thank you all for your advice oceanwynds Like has been said, little steps until your confidence returns, when all is said and done, it is about trust

barelynangel -> RE: Rationalizing red flags (10/22/2009 6:05:04 AM)
I have been where you are and still am still working through a lot even years down the road. However, one thing you have to do is 1) forgive yourself and 2) stop blaming yourself. Life happens, sometimes things just go wrong and what you thought may be the future turns into something different than what you had planned. You will find as things go on hor resiliant you really are, and once you get passed the self-anger and self-recriminations, you will have a better perspective of yourself and the world around you again. The hardest thing to overcome is perhaps not necessarily trusting yourself because you may not have actually done anything where you can't trust yourself, but more so believing in yourself and understanding sometimes things may not turn out as planned and yes may actually turn out bad. Its okay -- not easy but it is okay. Should you really have "known" better -- i doubt it, every situation is different and if we always live by the should have known betters we would never spread our wings and fly. grins, you wouldn't be saying "I should have known better" if it worked out for the better instead of the worse as it did. So should you have known better -- NO, you shouldn't have. You can't live your life in a bubble. You need to TRY before you can triumph. TRYING doesn't guarantee triumph but it puts you in a better position of never trying at all. If you keep telling yourself you should KNOW better in situations you will stop yourself from trying. I presume you don't have a chrystal ball, rather than it simply being in the shop regarding this situation. So give yourself a break. It doesn't seem like you are holding yourself in total accountability, it seems like you are holding yourself in complete BLAME! Accountability is not blame. Once you stop putting the obstacle of blame and self-recriminations in your way, things will be seen clearer. Then as others have said, its simply baby steps. I am not saying don't learn from the situation, what i am saying is don't believe what you have learned in the past should somehow build a chrystal ball for you to see into the future. If the situation that put you hear worked out -- none of this would be occuring and you wouldn't be saying -- i should have known better. Give yourself some time to heal, not only from the situation but from the self-inflicted hairshirt you seem to be wearing. You walk through the ruins as you do in all ways - in reality what do you do? You look at the house that has been torn apart and strewned all over, you then start dividing it into sections and sifting through what can be salvaged to help you rebuild. A lot however you simply leave for trash to be hauled away because its not worth bringing it forward in your life. angel -- now if i can just take my own advice lol. Its not easy nor do you come out of it unscathed, but it is doable.

impishlilhellcat -> RE: Rationalizing red flags (10/22/2009 6:10:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sirsholly quote: i find myself now very unsteady. How do i begin walking through my ruins? One tiny baby step at a time. Do one thing every day that scares you, and do not deny the fear because you think it is silly. When i was at my lowest point i was afraid to get the mail. I was in a state of isolation and mail was an interference to my protective shell. It sounds silly to you certainly, but to me it was a real fear. I set the goal on day one to bring it in. Day two, bring it in and actually look at it....and so went the baby steps, until i realized i was getting a tiny bit stronger, one day at a time. You will not regain your self esteem overnight. But you can take a tiny step toward it today. Ocean...you CAN di it!!! This is such good advice!!!!!!! I've been where you are I may still be where you are. I found that taking it minute by minute at first, hour by hour, and then day by day (really like taking it more than one day at a time is an option) is what worked for me. I also, found that I would have really good days, which turned into weeks, and then months, but then I would find myself going in a backward direction. It's hard especially when you place all the blame on yourself. I had a conversation the other day with someone who said I know your hurting now, but where do you see yourself in 5 years. Is this where you want to be is this what you want your life to be like. Keeping thinking of where you want to be, what you want to accomplish and when the going gets tough imagine yourself there. The emotional scars are the ones you always remember and at this point all you can do is learn from your past and move forward.

impishlilhellcat -> RE: Rationalizing red flags (10/22/2009 6:14:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Acer49 quote: ORIGINAL: oceanwynds1 Life has taught me well, or so i thought. At my age i should have known better, but rationalizing came into play. Now i cannot trust my ownself in how i will act in any type of relationship. I feel like humpty dumpty and shattered into pieces and i hold myself in total accountability. Right now i do not know how to get my dignity back or self-respect. Everything i have learned was discarded by me and i cant trust my thinking any more. I do not know how to begin to put my pieces together, and because of my lack of trusting and having faith in myself, i find myself now very unsteady. I will not seek a Dom at this time, because i have to find me again. I have to find the trust in me again. This will take a long time, and i am in no hurry to enter another relationship. I don't blame him, because i should have known better. I failed myself. How do i begin walking through my ruins? thank you all for your advice oceanwynds Like has been said, little steps until your confidence returns, when all is said and done, it is about trust Unfortunately it's really hard to trust someone else when you can't trust yourself. Sometimes we have to use our heads to guide our hearts.

oceanwynds1 -> RE: Rationalizing red flags (10/22/2009 6:20:57 AM)
Thank you barelynangel I know i am blaming myself. When you see so many red flags but rationalize them then who else is to blame? i just hung on to the words verses the actions. i wanted to believe in him. I have a friend who told me yesterday that i was will to push my limits with him and had the brains to know when it was time to get out. i am hold on to that right now. i did know i had to leave, yet it doesn't make it any easier. I will give a lot of thought to what you wrote and i thank you for taking the time to post. It is much easier to help others, instead of following my own advice :) thank you oceanwynds

oceanwynds1 -> RE: Rationalizing red flags (10/22/2009 6:23:13 AM)
Thank you impishlilhellcat and Acer for posting. It means a lot to me that both of you took time to add your thoughts. oceanwynds

Notsweet -> RE: Rationalizing red flags (10/22/2009 6:37:39 AM)
Ocean, I think it's that way for all of us, no matter how smart or world-wise we are. And it's true that we have an easier time telling others how to do something, rather than take our own advice. <smile> When you have a lot of love to give, you attract two kinds of people--people who also have love to give and exchange, and people who prey on those who do. They fake it well, and have learned over the years how to pretend and portray genuine feeling and caring, so that they can get their own needs met. They are NOT interested in anyone else's needs. Unfortunately, it's easy for them to dress it up within what it is that we do. You expect a level of "selfishness" from a Dom, so their malignant brand of selfishness often goes unnoticed. That's a shame for Doms, because it makes it harder for them to stand out from the users. The red flags are so easy to see in someone else's relationship, but when it's yours, and you care, you're always willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt. And that's a sign of the good things in you--that you are willing to be open and non-judging. But again, the few among us who are...well, sociopaths, to be blunt, know how to find and exploit that, and they will. I've recently been through the same experience. Imagine looking at 13 years of red flags, being TOLD by others that they exist, and still working your behind off trying to make it work. And if anyone should have seen and responded to the red flags, I should have. I had to question my choice of career over this fiasco. But the heart wants what it wants, and doesn't always check in with the brain. :) Certainly give yourself a little rest, remind yourself of the things you DON'T want, and remind yourself to look for what you do want. Next time around, you'll be older and wiser, and you'll make better choices. Don't beat yourself up over not seeing the problem. Congratulate yourself for learning a new lesson that you can use from now on. Feel better!

MsSavra -> RE: Rationalizing red flags (10/22/2009 6:46:11 AM)
Well, for a start: stop berating yourself. You chose to overlook the red flags, true, not a wise choice, but a thoroughly human experience. We do that when we love. We do not want to see when we love. In German we say "Liebe macht blind", love makes you blind. And I believe subs are even more prone to this because they trust, they commit themselves. How can you fully commit youself and continuously doubt your Dom/me? So, stop berating yourself for what you did in the past, it's not going to help you master your present. On the contrary, these thoughts are destructive if they only come back to the one conclusion that you have failed, that you are the only one to blame, that you are somewhat flawed. It's a vicious circle and will only result in shattering any self-confidence that's left. What you should do is concentrate on your strong points. What are you good at? What are your assets? Where can you trust yourself? Rebuild your self-esteem and strength by setting yourself small tasks that you can achieve. Give yourself good experiences with yourself. Practice saying No to things you don't want. And all the others are right: Give yourself time and take one little step at a time. And let your good friends look after you. Remember, there is no shame in falling, only in not getting up again. Wishing you all the best and lots of strength.

BitaTruble -> RE: Rationalizing red flags (10/22/2009 6:56:03 AM)
quote: How do i begin walking through my ruins? I'd start off by doing things that I know I can do that give me a sense of satisfaction and accomplishment. Nothing builds confidence like successful completion of a task. A short 'to do' list, maybe 3 or 4 things that are feasible that I can complete on day one, even if they are things I've done 100 times before are a good reminder for me that I don't totally suck in every area of my life and even if I suck at some stuff, I don't suck at 'this' stuff. I'd probably do that for a few days then add a few more things to my list and one thing that I wasn't 'sure' I could accomplish, but if it didn't work out, it would be okay because it's not like any major thing (like maybe making a souffle or something). If it doesn't work, okay, then I messed up a souffle but it's not the end of the world. If it comes out, then that's a success and yay me! Slow and steady. Give yourself some time, you've already been given the advice of baby steps and those really do work to get you places.. maybe not as fast as you'd like, but you'll get there. Give yourself reasons to try, reasons to succeed and small things that it's okay to mess up and the more successes you have, the more you'll build up your confidence and the little backwards that happens once in a while won't be nearly so hard because it will only be 1 out of 10 things that you even give an opportunity for that to happen. Last, you are not alone, you have lots of folks here who will support and encourage you. Best to you! Have a great time at the wedding! Celeste

MMagic -> RE: Rationalizing red flags (10/22/2009 7:05:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsSavra Well, for a start: stop berating yourself. You chose to overlook the red flags, true, not a wise choice, but a thoroughly human experience. We do that when we love. We do not want to see when we love. In German we say "Liebe macht blind", love makes you blind. And I believe subs are even more prone to this because they trust, they commit themselves. How can you fully commit youself and continuously doubt your Dom/me? So, stop berating yourself for what you did in the past, it's not going to help you master your present. On the contrary, these thoughts are destructive if they only come back to the one conclusion that you have failed, that you are the only one to blame, that you are somewhat flawed. It's a vicious circle and will only result in shattering any self-confidence that's left. What you should do is concentrate on your strong points. What are you good at? What are your assets? Where can you trust yourself? Rebuild your self-esteem and strength by setting yourself small tasks that you can achieve. Give yourself good experiences with yourself. Practice saying No to things you don't want. And all the others are right: Give yourself time and take one little step at a time. And let your good friends look after you. Remember, there is no shame in falling, only in not getting up again. Wishing you all the best and lots of strength. I think you are dead on here. As subs we tend to think in what I'm going to call Victim circle logic. You may feel as though this is your fault but you're still feeling like a victim in an odd sense. Everyone here is right, stop berating yourself, these things happen and you'll have to find your own way out. I personally say give yourself one day where you go as deep as you can into this pain. Hit the bottom. Cry, eat your ice cream, listen to your sappy love songs, watch the movies, whatever you do, but get it out. Then tell yourself this is the bottom and it's time to go back up, because there is no where else TO go. As Sirsholly said take the baby steps and you'll get stronger every day. And yes do something that scares or thrills you or something you always wanted to do but never did for some reason. I actually wrote a post similar to this in my journal about the movie Something's Gotta Give. The main character had her heart broken and she let herself cry it out and then she poured all that energy in to writing a blockbluster play and began learning Italian and everything to make sure she didn't sit around moping...and Keanu Reeves as a consolation prize ain't bad either. You CAN do it, it's not going to happen overnight and tell yourself it's ok to grieve and it's not ALL your fault. Take 2 to tango. And of course as it's been said...we're all here. Vent as much as you like. We'll listen.

Lucienne -> RE: Rationalizing red flags (10/22/2009 7:08:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: oceanwynds1 Thank you barelynangel I know i am blaming myself. When you see so many red flags but rationalize them then who else is to blame? i just hung on to the words verses the actions. i wanted to believe in him. I have a friend who told me yesterday that i was will to push my limits with him and had the brains to know when it was time to get out. i am hold on to that right now. i did know i had to leave, yet it doesn't make it any easier. Whatever credit you're giving yourself for leaving, multiply it by ten! When I found myself in a similar position - a self imposed time-out from relationships because I didn't trust myself - it was after a five year relationship. Five fucking years. I still can't believe it lasted that long. In terms of blaming yourself, I don't think it's helpful to think of it in terms of blame. If I knew more about the situation, I'm sure I could go into detail about how this man being a jerk is not your responsibility. Exposing yourself to him was your responsibility. And you have wisely taken responsibility and stopped the exposure. You are angry at yourself for exposing yourself to him in the first place, because you should have known better. You say you wanted to believe in him. I'd recommend giving some thought to what it was in your life, your history, your deeper needs, whatever, that made you want to believe in him. Don't look at it from the perspective of "he was an attractive mate." Consider what parts of you were so invested in him being an attractive mate that they vetoed your better senses spotting the red flags. I'm not sure I'm making any sense. In my experience, the "should've known better" things happen not because the other was so spectacularly seductive, attractive, or great at hiding their true natures (see abundant red flags). They happen because some part of me wants something badly enough that the "want" scenario guides my actions instead of reality. Identifying that want is what allows me to recognize when it is effecting my decisions to an unhealthy degree.

LaTigresse -> RE: Rationalizing red flags (10/22/2009 7:09:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: oceanwynds1 Life has taught me well, or so i thought. At my age i should have known better, but rationalizing came into play. Now i cannot trust my ownself in how i will act in any type of relationship. I feel like humpty dumpty and shattered into pieces and i hold myself in total accountability. Right now i do not know how to get my dignity back or self-respect. Everything i have learned was discarded by me and i cant trust my thinking any more. I do not know how to begin to put my pieces together, and because of my lack of trusting and having faith in myself, i find myself now very unsteady. I will not seek a Dom at this time, because i have to find me again. I have to find the trust in me again. This will take a long time, and i am in no hurry to enter another relationship. I don't blame him, because i should have known better. I failed myself. How do i begin walking through my ruins? thank you all for your advice oceanwynds So you made some bad choices......... guess what, we all do. The most together appearing one of us has done it. It is part of being human. You accept it, learn from it, and move forward. Accepting that you will very likely make quite a few more stupid decisions/choices, in your life. You simply try to avoid repeating the same ones. Spend time with people you trust, doing things you know you are good at, things that feed your soul. And yes, begin to challenge yourself again. Gain confidence in accomplishments. You can accept personal responsibility without martyring yourself. Accept the responsibility but release the guilt. Don't allow yourself to take away your own value, question your worth, just because you feel you have screwed up. Just accept it, learn from it, then let the guilt go. It is a process and a helluva lot easier to type or read, than do. But it is possible, just a process. No shortcuts. And each of us will have a different time table. Just don't lose yourself in feeling overwhelmed with "I should have..."s. It isn't productive, just destructive. You would begin to believe more and more negative about yourself, and you might end up, unconsciously repeating the destructive patterns, because at some level you will think that is all you deserve. And remember, there is a HUGE difference between assigning blame, and accepting responsibility. Blame is negative, responsibility is a learning process.

oceanwynds1 -> RE: Rationalizing red flags (10/22/2009 7:27:22 AM)
Thank to everyone who has posted. Your comments have been read, and i do see now blaming myself is not a healthy road to take. i have put on paper my recent achievements to refer too when i start the blaming. I am listing 3 goals per day that i will finish. I am proud of myself that i left this relationship. I know i hurt and yes i miss him dearly, but i also know i did what was best for me. Something/somewhere down the road i will look back and say 'good girl' to myself and smile. One thing i am proud of is i came back here and let people know i am hurting. Thanks for the support. oceanwynds

Andalusite -> RE: Rationalizing red flags (10/22/2009 7:51:35 AM)
A lot of people who are abusive or just extremely incompatible take the frog-boiling approach. They wait a while, and start out with such subtle things that the target doesn't notice, and gradually increase the intensity over time to something that would have made the frog or victim jump out of the situation. I've been in a couple of similar relationships, and it did affect my opinion of my own judgement. I'd suggest you focus less on "why didn't I notice sooner," and more on "what are some of the subtle changes he made early on?"

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