RE: Colorado will lower it's minimum wage

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RE: Colorado will lower it's minimum wage - 10/15/2009 3:44:39 PM

variation30

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this is relevant.

http://mises.org/story/3732

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RE: Colorado will lower it's minimum wage - 10/15/2009 4:13:14 PM

pahunkboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

this is relevant.

http://mises.org/story/3732

If every person obtained just one ounce of silver honest money would return- the system would clean up real fast.

Maybe Bernanki will win the Nobel Peace Prize ,.,and the Congressional Medal of Freedom.

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RE: Colorado will lower it's minimum wage - 10/15/2009 5:23:50 PM

lusciouslips19

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quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19

I believe lower production costs will lead to greater profits but NOT lower prices. Big business does not work that way. Competition between businesses leads to lower prices. The difference in pay between the haves and have nots continues to grow.

well, first off competition does not necessarily drive down prices - prices are nothing but a reflection of information (though competition and lower prices are a corollary...but that's being a bit nit-picky).

and what is wrong about pay differences growing?

but yeah, let's say one has greater profits...would it not be wise to lower a price to have a larger base of consumers (increasing profits further).

So you are contradicting yourself now. You said greater production would lead to lower prices so we have no need for a higher minimum wage. You obviously just proved why we need a minimum wage. Greater profits do not lead to lower prices or better pay for minimum wage workers.

< Message edited by lusciouslips19 -- 10/15/2009 5:25:02 PM >

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RE: Colorado will lower it's minimum wage - 10/17/2009 12:30:53 AM

variation30

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19

So you are contradicting yourself now. You said greater production would lead to lower prices so we have no need for a higher minimum wage. You obviously just proved why we need a minimum wage. Greater profits do not lead to lower prices or better pay for minimum wage workers.

I'm not contradicting myself. what I said was that if you want a real increase in wages - the way to do it is through deregulating business, not forcing employers to raise the wages of people above the productivity of the employee (which will lead to nothing but downsizing and outsourcing). a smart businessman would lower prices when it was available to increase the consumer base...but I'm not saying that it will happen 100% of the time just as competition will not lead to lower prices 100% of the time.

and while lower prices may not necessarily lead to better pay for minimum wage workers (again, 2% of the US population - and let's keep in mind this is a country with double-digit unemployment), it will lead to an increase in buying power.

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RE: Colorado will lower it's minimum wage - 10/17/2009 2:34:14 AM

Louve00

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quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

you work for minimum wage? only around 2% of the us population works for the federal minimum wage.

Big assumption on your part. I don't work for minimum wage. But the state of fla still has the minimum wage set at the federal level. I doubt seriously, lowering the minimum wage in CO means everyone in CO is getting a pay decrease. It means people will be cheaper to hire.

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RE: Colorado will lower it's minimum wage - 10/17/2009 5:51:03 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

Well, I live in FL where we only have the federal minimum wage in place here. Which means while we still work for peanuts, at least they'll be leaving our peanuts alone.

you work for minimum wage? only around 2% of the us population works for the federal minimum wage.

anyhow, the idea that raising minimum wage somehow equates to increasing people's livelihood is just silly.

if you want people's wages to really go up, cut regulations and taxes on businesses (minimum wage included) so that business owners are able to invest more in increased methods of production. this'll result in lowered prices - which means your dollar will buy more.

lol.

You just claimed that cutting government regulation would result in significant price deflation. Significant price deflation is one of the surest ways to close businesses known.

Essentially what you are advocating is that due to the delay between buying raw materials and selling finished product whatever it may be that prices for your finished product will go down without a corresponding decline in your raw material costs. Therefore while you bought the raw materials for your company's widget at a final sale price of $1 your actual sale price is only $0.99. Which wipes away some significant amount of the profit you built into the pricing of your product. Any business that operates on tight margins counting on volume to make money just went under right there.

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RE: Colorado will lower it's minimum wage - 10/17/2009 2:27:35 PM

variation30

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
lol.

You just claimed that cutting government regulation would result in significant price deflation. Significant price deflation is one of the surest ways to close businesses known.

Essentially what you are advocating is that due to the delay between buying raw materials and selling finished product whatever it may be that prices for your finished product will go down without a corresponding decline in your raw material costs. Therefore while you bought the raw materials for your company's widget at a final sale price of $1 your actual sale price is only $0.99. Which wipes away some significant amount of the profit you built into the pricing of your product. Any business that operates on tight margins counting on volume to make money just went under right there.

why would prices of a finished product drop below the price of the raw material if markets were deregulated? I hardly see a causal link between the two.

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RE: Colorado will lower it's minimum wage - 10/17/2009 3:44:54 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
lol.

You just claimed that cutting government regulation would result in significant price deflation. Significant price deflation is one of the surest ways to close businesses known.

Essentially what you are advocating is that due to the delay between buying raw materials and selling finished product whatever it may be that prices for your finished product will go down without a corresponding decline in your raw material costs. Therefore while you bought the raw materials for your company's widget at a final sale price of $1 your actual sale price is only $0.99. Which wipes away some significant amount of the profit you built into the pricing of your product. Any business that operates on tight margins counting on volume to make money just went under right there.

why would prices of a finished product drop below the price of the raw material if markets were deregulated? I hardly see a causal link between the two.

Because the overall rate of price deflation is progressive the raw materials are bought on one or more days well before the date of the sale of the finished product. Price deflation continues though so when the finished product is ready for sale prices have deflated more. Which is disastrous for businesses. It's happened twice in US history, before the present, and both times it almost brought down our nation. See 1929 to 1933 and 1870 to 1890 for details.

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RE: Colorado will lower it's minimum wage - 10/17/2009 7:48:48 PM

Muttling

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I'm not up to date on the implementation, but I'm for the basic idea of the law Colorado uses.

They are supposed to raise minimum wage when cost of living goes up and lower as it comes down. They lowered by .04 per hour, but they're already more than $1 per hour higher than most of the country.

Unlike most of the country, if the cost of living goes up, it doesn't take passage of a law for the wage to go up. It just happens. How long has it been since we've seen an adjustment to the minimum wage laws? How much has the cost of living increased since then?

You have to give in that minimum wage should drop with the cost of living if you're going to expect a raise with the cost of living. Colorado has the right idea. (Again, I don't know details so I can't comment further than the concept.)

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RE: Colorado will lower it's minimum wage - 10/18/2009 11:25:14 AM

variation30

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Because the overall rate of price deflation is progressive the raw materials are bought on one or more days well before the date of the sale of the finished product. Price deflation continues though so when the finished product is ready for sale prices have deflated more. Which is disastrous for businesses. It's happened twice in US history, before the present, and both times it almost brought down our nation. See 1929 to 1933 and 1870 to 1890 for details

you point to two instances of bubbles collapsing as the woes of price deflation? really? the bust was the necessary fix to artificial booms brought about by central banking ("necessitated" by wars). attempts to hold prices at unsustainable rates only prolong these disasters. I'd suggest you compare the depression of 1920 to the great depression. or the panic of 1817, for that matter.

you know what is disastrous for business? malinvestment caused by cheap money/credit. it's the only thing that leads to businesses pricing their goods so unrealistically.

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RE: Colorado will lower it's minimum wage - 10/18/2009 11:43:53 AM

einstien5201

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Muttling

I'm not up to date on the implementation, but I'm for the basic idea of the law Colorado uses.

They are supposed to raise minimum wage when cost of living goes up and lower as it comes down. They lowered by .04 per hour, but they're already more than $1 per hour higher than most of the country.

Unlike most of the country, if the cost of living goes up, it doesn't take passage of a law for the wage to go up. It just happens. How long has it been since we've seen an adjustment to the minimum wage laws? How much has the cost of living increased since then?

You have to give in that minimum wage should drop with the cost of living if you're going to expect a raise with the cost of living. Colorado has the right idea. (Again, I don't know details so I can't comment further than the concept.)

The Colorado minimum wage for non-tipped employees is tied to the Consumer Price Index for Colorado. There isn't actually a CPI for Colorado as a whole, so the state uses the CPI for the Denver-Boulder-Greely area instead. Kind of a shaft to the rest of the state, but it's understandable. The minimum wage in CO is currently $7.28/hour, a whopping $.03 above the federal one. With the decrease in the CPI, the wage will drop to $7.24/hour. Most employers will still be subject to the provisions of the federal law, however, so the effective minimum wage will be $7.25/hour. A typical worker will work 2080 hours in a year (40 hours/week x 52 weeks/year), so this means a difference of $62.40 over the course of a year.

Honestly, though, I don't expect this to affect any existing employees. It might affect any new hires though.

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RE: Colorado will lower it's minimum wage - 10/18/2009 2:08:08 PM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Because the overall rate of price deflation is progressive the raw materials are bought on one or more days well before the date of the sale of the finished product. Price deflation continues though so when the finished product is ready for sale prices have deflated more. Which is disastrous for businesses. It's happened twice in US history, before the present, and both times it almost brought down our nation. See 1929 to 1933 and 1870 to 1890 for details

you point to two instances of bubbles collapsing as the woes of price deflation? really? the bust was the necessary fix to artificial booms brought about by central banking ("necessitated" by wars). attempts to hold prices at unsustainable rates only prolong these disasters. I'd suggest you compare the depression of 1920 to the great depression. or the panic of 1817, for that matter.

you know what is disastrous for business? malinvestment caused by cheap money/credit. it's the only thing that leads to businesses pricing their goods so unrealistically.

The cause of both events is irrelevant to the matter at hand. The effects of sustained price deflation, no matter the cause, is disastrous for businesses.

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RE: Colorado will lower it's minimum wage - 10/18/2009 2:25:12 PM

pahunkboy

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Actually 30 has it right.

It is ALL about the central banks - rigging wars so as to get rich off of the common man. Study the history of it- and it is not too hard to see. Astoundingly-, the methods do not vary that much- but the game is the same.

More people have got to wake up.

In a few years- it will be clearer to others as to what is happening. By then- tho- it will be too late to stop it.

http://bobchapman.blogspot.com/ <-- this is 10-16-09 Bob Chapman vid talks about the economy.

< Message edited by pahunkboy -- 10/18/2009 2:58:59 PM >

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RE: Colorado will lower it's minimum wage - 10/18/2009 4:12:10 PM

GoDolphins

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I didn't even know some states had their own minimum wages. I thought it was just a federal thing.

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RE: Colorado will lower it's minimum wage - 10/18/2009 9:55:54 PM

einstien5201

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Nearly all states have thier own minimum wages. For most employers (those subject to the FLSA), both the Federal and State standards apply with the employer being required to use whichever is higher. There are currently 13 (including Colorado until Jan 1, 2010) states that have minimum wages higher than the Federal, and 27 with rates equal to the Federal. To be fair, though, most of those 27 seem to be attempts by the states to plug the loopholes in the FLSA to ensure that all employers in the state are subject to the same minimum wage requirements (i.e., they don't have a minimum wage rate of $7.25/hour written into the state laws, it just references the Federal rate).

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RE: Colorado will lower it's minimum wage - 10/18/2009 11:38:16 PM

GoDolphins

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Apparently from what I found looking it up I happen to live in one of the very few states that doesn't have one.

Oh well, I can't really feel too bad for the people of Colorado now.

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RE: Colorado will lower it's minimum wage - 10/19/2009 7:33:27 AM

pahunkboy

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...in the 80s IL did not- PA did. I thought it was odd when I first learned that.

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