How far can suspension of disbelif go and how do you get that far? (Full Version)

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i3ear -> How far can suspension of disbelif go and how do you get that far? (10/11/2009 1:57:08 PM)

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WillingSuspensionOfDisbelief
In other words, turning off that little voice in your head that goes "this is all pretend"

How far can it go and in what ways can you get to that point where you totally forget?

Personally I do erotic chat (lol online BDSM) and I use a lot of meta talk. Like "now you say you submit because of our little game, but soon through (way x) and (way y) I will truly have you broken and serving me forever"



alittleevil -> RE: How far can suspension of disbelif go and how do you get that far? (10/11/2009 2:43:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: i3ear

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WillingSuspensionOfDisbelief
In other words, turning off that little voice in your head that goes "this is all pretend"

How far can it go and in what ways can you get to that point where you totally forget?



Hi there,
I do think i understand what you are asking, but for me, it is not all pretend. When Master says "I want a cup of coffee," he really does want a cup of coffee and i really do get said cup of coffee and should i not do so, the beating of my ass that would take place would not be pretend.  How far can it go? How far are you willing and able to take it? About that far.  Yes, i do "forget" i have the option to vote with my feet. Somewhere in the back of my head i know i have a choice: a choice to obey or a choice to leave but it's not really applicable any longer. Imagine a fork in a maze. You can go left or right, but every time you go right something really bad happens. When you go left things are quite nice. Pretty soon,  you forget that right turn even exists.

quote:

Personally I do erotic chat (lol online BDSM) and I use a lot of meta talk. Like "now you say you submit because of our little game, but soon through (way x) and (way y) I will truly have you broken and serving me forever"


I can't speak as to "erotic chat" but in life, actually, yeah,  it does kinda work just like that.  Kinda.

Best,
aj



i3ear -> RE: How far can suspension of disbelif go and how do you get that far? (10/11/2009 2:54:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: alittleevil

quote:

ORIGINAL: i3ear

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WillingSuspensionOfDisbelief
In other words, turning off that little voice in your head that goes "this is all pretend"

How far can it go and in what ways can you get to that point where you totally forget?



Hi there,
I do think i understand what you are asking, but for me, it is not all pretend. When Master says "I want a cup of coffee," he really does want a cup of coffee and i really do get said cup of coffee and should i not do so, the beating of my ass that would take place would not be pretend.  How far can it go? How far are you willing and able to take it? About that far.  Yes, i do "forget" i have the option to vote with my feet. Somewhere in the back of my head i know i have a choice: a choice to obey or a choice to leave but it's not really applicable any longer. Imagine a fork in a maze. You can go left or right, but every time you go right something really bad happens. When you go left things are quite nice. Pretty soon,  you forget that right turn even exists.

quote:

Personally I do erotic chat (lol online BDSM) and I use a lot of meta talk. Like "now you say you submit because of our little game, but soon through (way x) and (way y) I will truly have you broken and serving me forever"


I can't speak as to "erotic chat" but in life, actually, yeah,  it does kinda work just like that.  Kinda.

Best,
aj



Whell I am not talking about punishment. In the middle of a session that nagging voice can get annoying. It can be a turn off. I am talking about what can be done to make a person REALLY believe all the insane not-truths that a master says to further the fantasy and to lose yourself in it.



tsatske -> RE: How far can suspension of disbelif go and how do you get that far? (10/11/2009 3:04:06 PM)

You might be talking about internal enslavement. Seeks discipline is a great site of lifestyle people for whom IE is the goal. The point at which I no longer make choices myself, but desire to do what Master wants. I don't think that little evil gets her Master a cup of coffee to avoid punishment, although a smartassed 'NO' would no doubt result in punishment. I suspect she gets the coffee because she WANTS to serve and please him.
  When I am owned, and strapped up to the cross, i do not have my head constantly asking 'should I safe word. It's not so bad - i can always safeword.' I don't have a safeword specifically because I play only with those I trust to play without one, and because I don't want that nagging thought in my head. I am there, strapped in, the rollercoaster will stop when it stops - the control is not mine.
    When I decide that I will turn over control to them, I might struggle with things that they want control of  - 'say what? you want me to wear pink?' - but I don't decide, 'will I obey?' I just obey, because I have made a decision to do so.
  Is that any closer to what you are asking about?



leadership527 -> RE: How far can suspension of disbelif go and how do you get that far? (10/11/2009 3:14:09 PM)

I find it particularly easy to suspend my disbelief when, in fact, everything that I am doing, feeling, and being is well grounded in reality. I tell Carol to do stuff and she does. No pretend involved.

Even online, it needn't be pretend. You can treat it for exactly what it is. A long distance relationship with at least some elements of authority transfer in it.

quote:

Whell I am not talking about punishment. In the middle of a session that nagging voice can get annoying. It can be a turn off. I am talking about what can be done to make a person REALLY believe all the insane not-truths that a master says to further the fantasy and to lose yourself in it.

Stop lying and it'll be much more believable. Why are you telling "insane not truths"?

Really, I'm trying not to be snide here. I'm just not getting it. It sounds to me like you yourself don't believe any of it so of course you'll never convince anyone else. Perhaps you could list a few of these "insane not truths" and that'd help me to better understand where you're coming from?



kiwisub12 -> RE: How far can suspension of disbelif go and how do you get that far? (10/11/2009 3:17:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: i3ear


I am talking about what can be done to make a person REALLY believe all the insane not-truths that a master says to further the fantasy and to lose yourself in it.





When my Sir and i scene, and he says he is going to hit me hard, there is no fantasy involved. He is going to hit me hard.
I have seen him do some scenes with role playing, and since it is fantasy, i don't see how you can make a relatively sane person believe it ,but then, i am a fairly concrete person

The person he was scening was into it big time, and thoroughly enjoying it - and if she really believed that she was being interrogated and tortured, i don't see her enjoying it any more.
You would almost have to induce a state of disassociation, one with time limits, and one that was easily reversed. Hmm, good luck with that one.

I would also hazard a guess that a great deal of trust would have to be involved.



tsatske -> RE: How far can suspension of disbelif go and how do you get that far? (10/11/2009 3:29:43 PM)

Role playing can be fun, and maybe since we are talking 'suspension of disbelief', that is a better ground from which to answer this question.

You are right, leadership, imo. the OP reminds me of a sisterslave I had once. She played hard and she played with a vengence, but whenever she played, there was this kind of sheen on her, you could almost see - this smile, this smirk, that said, 'gee, this is fun - of course, it's all a game, but a fun one.' She actually burst a little bubble of suspension of disbelief that I didn't relize I was enjoying until she popped it. We were tied up together, and my Master at that time left the room to bring in more toys. I was trembling, my eyes rolling back in my head with anticipation. She said, 'You're actually scared? Why would you be scared?' I said, 'He is going to hurt us.' Now, I'm a painslut, but I'm a fear slut, too, so I enjoy that fear that says, this might be the time that hurts SO bad.... she said, 'He'd never really hurt you.' I answered, 'He wouldn't injure me, he wouldn't damage me, but, yes, he often does HURT me...' but, as I said, the bubble popped. Because, yes, that Master often DID hurt me, and I loved it - but, he never, NEVER really did anything that actually hurt ME, with my high pain threshhold of a painslut - in front of others, for fear of scaring other playmates. A fact I had managed to lock into a unused storage room of my mind, until that conversation with the my modelesque sisterslave, C. Which at that moment, I thought should stand for cunt, cause I have to say, I did not enjoy that session nearly as much as I should have, once it occured to me that, she was right - he wasn't going to hurt me, Dammit! Not that night, at least.
        On the other hand, I saw her bubble of disbelief poped once, when she smarted off to him when we were just sitting around talking, not playing, and he pucked up a paddle from the table and walloped her across the back. Her look as she picked it up and walked around the table - that, 'this is a game' smirk, went to something like pure disbelief and shock when he smacked her with it. You could almost hear her safe little bubble of 'this is all a game' burst, it was almost audible, and I think the pressure lowered in the room - anyway, I know my ears popped. <grin>.



OrionTheWolf -> RE: How far can suspension of disbelif go and how do you get that far? (10/11/2009 3:41:29 PM)

Some of us do not have sessions or really play. Some of us live it 24/7 in a power exchange relationship, that many consider extreme. Our reality is, but those that have never been here would likely see it as a delusion or escape from reality. Different perspectives depending upon where you are standing.


quote:

ORIGINAL: i3ear

Whell I am not talking about punishment. In the middle of a session that nagging voice can get annoying. It can be a turn off. I am talking about what can be done to make a person REALLY believe all the insane not-truths that a master says to further the fantasy and to lose yourself in it.




graphicdesignace -> RE: How far can suspension of disbelif go and how do you get that far? (10/11/2009 4:09:09 PM)

I just wasted 2 hours at that site because of you, you jerk. :p



Andalusite -> RE: How far can suspension of disbelif go and how do you get that far? (10/11/2009 5:46:44 PM)

We might do role-playing scenes for fun, but we don't believe they're real. He doesn't lie to me, during scenes, or at other times.



alittleevil -> RE: How far can suspension of disbelif go and how do you get that far? (10/11/2009 6:55:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: i3ear
Whell I am not talking about punishment. In the middle of a session that nagging voice can get annoying. It can be a turn off. I am talking about what can be done to make a person REALLY believe all the insane not-truths that a master says to further the fantasy and to lose yourself in it.



Hello again,

I wasn't so much talking about punishment itself either...except so far as to use it as an example of how physical punishment is used as part of suspending any "disbelief" i might have that he really, really does expect me to do as he says.

If i were to be told, for example, "You belong to me and as such I am going to do exactly what I want, how I want and when I want," no suspension of disbelief is required for me to accept that that's exactly what is going to happen.  It is  not an "insane half truth." At one time, however, i did do scenes/sessions with a person who said things like that and, for a little while, it was hot.  Unfortunately once it became clear that exactly what, how and when he wanted was only exactly what i would "allow" him (that nagging voice?), it got a lot less hot real quick. No genuine internal consistency?  But that's me and how i roll.   If i'm afraid, it's because i know it's really going to freaking hurt. I can't pretend to be afraid of the Big Bad Man coming at me with a knife when i know damn good and well he isn't about to actually slit my throat (because that would deprive him of a perfectly good girl <g>). So, for someone like me i guess the answer is, you can't make me believe you are doing something unless i know from experience you are willing and able to actually do it.  I don't pretend to be Master's slave, one who serves and obeys, i really do serve and obey. I don't pretend to be afraid of Master's whip, i really (really!) am. I have tried to do such things, in play, yes, but i never was able to find much satisfaction in it.  I don't make a very good mindfuck bottom.

Best,
aj



DesFIP -> RE: How far can suspension of disbelif go and how do you get that far? (10/11/2009 7:40:57 PM)

As evil said, he isn't pretending when he wants a cup of tea. Or for me to do anything else.

Nor do I pretend when I give it to him with a kiss.

If I had to pretend, then I would not enjoy it, I would not actively be happy.

For some of us this is more than cyber sex, it is our authentic selves. And I don't have to actively seek to not look behind the curtain, because there isn't one. What you see is what you get.



ncbabe -> RE: How far can suspension of disbelif go and how do you get that far? (10/11/2009 8:56:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: i3ear

Whell I am not talking about punishment. In the middle of a session that nagging voice can get annoying. It can be a turn off. I am talking about what can be done to make a person REALLY believe all the insane not-truths that a master says to further the fantasy and to lose yourself in it.



I'm confused.  What fantasy are you talking about?



i3ear -> RE: How far can suspension of disbelif go and how do you get that far? (10/11/2009 9:51:28 PM)

Alright, still a bit of confusion about what I am talking about here.

What I am saying is that, usually there is a safe word. Usually there is a safety net. Usually there is a higher level of control that the slave puts on the master for his or her own pleasure and safety. If there is not then it is not consensual and in my opinion very wrong.

What I am saying is the ability to shut out those facts in your mind, to get you to REALLY REALLY believe things like "s/he has total and complete control over my life" despite the fact that it really is just a (really really really) fun sex game.

Even in 24/7 total  power transference, you still have to have moments where it just isn't sexual. People need time to recover between orgasms, and if a guy is hard for more than 4 hours then their boner literally breaks. :P These times the game is put on "light" and just casual equal ness happens, like in every good relationship.

But in the middle of a hardcore session, you have the suspension of disbelief. The disbelief in the game in the form of "yes this really is consensual and I do have some control over why I am here, and I have that safe word if I don't like anything"

This is much harder to do in roleplay.

In short, how to REALLY REALLY REALLY lose your mind and give total and complete total control over someone willingly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tsatske

You might be talking about internal enslavement. (words words words)


Yes that is what I am talking about, but I observe that all BDSM is a form of what you are talking about at least a little bit. Though I am new to this so meh?



littlewonder -> RE: How far can suspension of disbelif go and how do you get that far? (10/11/2009 11:32:44 PM)

If it's not real then it just doesn't work for me.
If I know something is pretend, roleplaying, I'm just gonna shrug it off and move on.
I have found I can't suspend that disbelief at all.




aldompdx -> RE: How far can suspension of disbelif go and how do you get that far? (10/12/2009 3:50:27 AM)

You can suspend objectivity as long as you can be fully invested in ignorance.

If ignorance is bliss, then why aren't more people happy?



allthatjaz -> RE: How far can suspension of disbelif go and how do you get that far? (10/12/2009 4:15:29 AM)

To some extent I get what the op is saying. Our dungeon is all but gone and that's not because we don't still get up to devious things but we both started to feel it felt too staged. I feel the same way about the pictures that pop up on the right side of this site. A woman in a harness tied to a St Andrews Cross with a fem Domme astride her dressed all in rubber looks so staged that it does nothing for me but a woman in a pretty dress, bound, gagged and looking scared is so hot.

As for the D/s side its as real as anything else in my life and that is possibly because it is part of the integration of everything else and is ever consistent. Within any relationship, nilla or not, the couple discuss personality traits, likes and dislikes and what they are actually looking for as a couple. A D/s relationship is no different and if acceptable to both will continue down their chosen way. If a fem sub sits up one day and states she no longer wants the sub dynamic its no different than a nilla wife sitting up one day and saying I no longer want to live this way. Its all reality.



ranja -> RE: How far can suspension of disbelief go and how do you get that far? (10/12/2009 4:21:58 AM)

It is all to do with your own power of imagination i think.

Some people watch movies and are constantly on the look out for mistakes, bad acting, or things that are out of place... other people watch the same movie and are totally into the story and enjoy it enormously.

If your timing is good and you can read your partner well you can make it very real indeed, if either of you is not totally focused on each other and the game, well then there is a risk that a mistake gets noticed and the bubble bursts... sometimes you can get it back but sometimes it is spoilt.

I have to say, i do not respond very well to ill thought out threats on-line... punishments and vague promises don't do it for me, but craftily spun stories, interrogation and embarrassing situations i think are hot.
Some people might play me like a marionette

edited for this:
allthatjaz said:  pictures that pop up on the right side of this site. A woman in a harness tied to a St Andrews Cross with a fem Domme astride her dressed all in rubber looks so staged that it does nothing for me

That is exactly what i mean... to me it does not matter at all that it is staged... the fact that people are so depraved that they have themselves pictured like that and put these pictures about for anyone to see is hot in my eyes... and i happen to like most of the images aswell and usually they turn me on.

Though i agree that the woman in the pretty dress might be ever so sexy aswell... real or not because that could be just as staged



subtlebutterfly -> RE: How far can suspension of disbelief go and how do you get that far? (10/12/2009 4:40:51 AM)

Nothing to do with the OP's question, but what is a meta talk?



OrionTheWolf -> RE: How far can suspension of disbelif go and how do you get that far? (10/12/2009 4:45:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: i3ear

Even in 24/7 total  power transference, you still have to have moments where it just isn't sexual. People need time to recover between orgasms, and if a guy is hard for more than 4 hours then their boner literally breaks. :P These times the game is put on "light" and just casual equal ness happens, like in every good relationship.


It is not about the sex. There is no game for some of us. No there is no casual equalness that happens between myself and my property. As far as in every good relationship, you should further qualify it by adding the words "that you have been involved in.

quote:


In short, how to REALLY REALLY REALLY lose your mind and give total and complete total control over someone willingly.


The property surrenders, and the owner uses various methods to maintain mastery over them. I use methods that reinforce things psychologically and emotionally in my property. An example is a double snap of my fingers will cause my property to stop whatever she is in the middle of and come to me. There is no game to turn off, and she is always my property.

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: tsatske

You might be talking about internal enslavement. (words words words)


Yes that is what I am talking about, but I observe that all BDSM is a form of what you are talking about at least a little bit. Though I am new to this so meh?



If that is what you are talking about, then read the valuable essays on the IE site, and most of them will explain to you what you do not seem to have understood yet. You could actually say that all of life us a form of what you are refering to, because the basic training methods used in IE, are based upon human psychology and behavior.



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