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RE: The Breakfast Thread - 10/7/2009 8:55:15 PM

looking4princess

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

That balance is kind of the gist of the whole thread. How can one obtain consent without somehow damaging "free will"? Especially in a submissive person who wants to please, it seems almost impossible. Regardless, when a request for consent comes from someone we care about it makes it that little bit more difficult to say no. Sometimes that is the correct answer or the answer we need to give, but there is a tug. I know you are trying to walk this line with Carol right now and I am as much at a loss to suggest what the best course of action is either.

This is more a legal question than a philosophical one in my opinion, though it may wax that way at some point. It is an exercise in futility since, legally, regardless people somehow cannot consent to certain things regardless of whether they entered it freely or not. I just am interested in if there is any way to quit just handing these folks their cases though. Is there any way for a dominant to obtain consent without damaging the free will of the submissive?

lovingpet

Aren't you just performing a shadowy dance here until you define the degree of consent that is being sought? Is the Dom/me asking for absolute Consent for all future acts? i.e. consensual-nonconsensual slavery? Or is the consent being sought for specific day to day activities that might usually be expected in a D/s relationship? Legally of course one cannot consent to slavery. There is the little matter of the 13th Amendment to the US Constitution. The answer to the big C is easy. It is prohibited. Contracts are stillborn legally.

But what about the little daily consents required in the relationship? The sub has consented to do what is required or submit to punishment. But isn't there always some degree of implicit negotiations if the Dom/me is wise, sensitive and humane? Is Free Will ever really gone at that point or is it fruitful ground for resentment if the sub doesn't really wish to consent but feels "unfree" to withdraw that consent? Free Will is always available to competant adults. It cannot be ignored I don't think. So, there is the seed of tension even in a D/s relationship. As you suggest, the submissive person who wishes to please but finds the demand repulsive say is on the horns of a dilemma and that is because of Free Will, no?

This topic seems so circular, it is hard to make sense of it without more specific definitions and examples. Sorry :)

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RE: The Breakfast Thread - 10/7/2009 9:30:13 PM

hardbodysub

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This is not a topic for debate at all. It's obvious. Free will is a prerequisite for consent. Period.

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Post #: 22

RE: The Breakfast Thread - 10/8/2009 5:31:43 AM

ncbabe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

I free willingly gave him my consent to do anything he wanted to me.
I also picked someone who was a great match for me. Makes it easier to give that consent when you really like the other person.

I'm going to second this.

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Post #: 23

RE: The Breakfast Thread - 10/8/2009 7:04:25 AM

tammystarm

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the chicken came first and then the whole adam and eve thingie.....
if in sound mind than free will but that is obvious
iagrees to freedom of consent of sane adults to do whatever T/they so choose... as long as it is respectful and mindful of children
While in St Louis this slave was rather upset, STL has the second largest mardi gras , and was always a blast until the new mayor showed up. this slave felt that during the day clothing should be on for the children's sake, but at night GAME ON, however they started policing it, closing the bars down at 10pm!!! and the crowd dropped sadly, not only did the city lose money but the fun was lost for so many.

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RE: The Breakfast Thread - 10/8/2009 7:44:53 AM

sunshinemiss

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So, Tammy, do tell.... What'd you do to get in trouble and have to speak in third person? Hmmmmm?

As to the question, I introduced a new breakfast sandwich at the hospital where I worked (the chef and I were buds). We call it the Mother and Child Reunion - Chicken sausage and egg sammich. Pretty good.

have a great day!

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RE: The Breakfast Thread - 10/8/2009 7:47:34 AM

tammystarm

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please goto the gorean thread and read choosing to be a slave..... yes this slave was wrong, but with truth as well. and didnt you mean what did you do this time? smiles

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Post #: 26

RE: The Breakfast Thread - 10/8/2009 8:56:43 AM

leadership527

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia
Some of us like negotiation & the contract thing, above & beyond the getting to know each other & all of that, not just in place of . . . . . . .
Another layer of formality & ritual & etc . . . . .

Agreed, if some n00b downloads slave boilerplate & attempts to mindlessly impose this on anyone who'll stand still for it, yeah, probable fail . . . . . .

But, come on, a contract's another opportunity for creativity, expression of self, & etc, akin to crafting one's wedding vows . . . . . .

<----- Paperwork fetish? Who? Me? What perverse fancies of black-picket-fenced BDomestic bliss dance in yon head?

*laughs* And far be it from me to stand in the way of your paperpwork fetish. Matter of fact, come tax season, I may be giving you a call.. :)

Seriously, I get it that lots of people get into lots of things that either tickle their fancy kink-wise or else work for them pragmatically. All I said is that I do not have a "paperowrk fetish" *chuckles*. And, from a pragmatic standpoint, I prefer to deal with reality on the ground rather than an indirect reflection of it. Your mileage may vary :)

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
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Post #: 27

RE: The Breakfast Thread - 10/8/2009 1:07:08 PM

DemonKia

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Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Chico, Nor-Cali
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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

*laughs* And far be it from me to stand in the way of your paperpwork fetish. Matter of fact, come tax season, I may be giving you a call.. :)

Seriously, I get it that lots of people get into lots of things that either tickle their fancy kink-wise or else work for them pragmatically. All I said is that I do not have a "paperowrk fetish" *chuckles*. And, from a pragmatic standpoint, I prefer to deal with reality on the ground rather than an indirect reflection of it. Your mileage may vary :)

Honest to gosh, Jeff, I'd given up the color thing before this, my apologies. Very annoying, I know . . . .

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Post #: 28

RE: The Breakfast Thread - 10/8/2009 6:30:41 PM

lovingpet

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But Kia, real men type in pink! Jeff knows that! LOL

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RE: The Breakfast Thread - 10/8/2009 6:43:37 PM

Andalusite

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So far, I haven't used contracts as a part of any of my relationships, but I wouldn't have any problem with doing so. I see them as a tool for brainstorming and clarification, rather than a legal document.

Yes, it is *very* difficult to say no, even to something that would be damaging, when I feel really submissive toward someone. It hurts, and makes for a huge internal struggle. I wouldn't go so far as to say that it negates my free will, though. Both of the men I've been with on the "kneel" side of D/s relationships have actively *wanted* my input, to know how I felt. Sometimes, if it was that huge of a struggle for me, and wasn't essential to them, they decided to give me a "pass" on it, or we approached it in smaller baby steps, or made a slight adjustment that helped me tremendously in being able to do/accept it. I feel inspired to constantly give more, to do more, to be more what he wants, resisting against myself rather than against him.

If he had made the "one strike and you're out" rule, that a single disobedience or reluctance, for any reason, is enough to lose the relationship, I would feel a huge amount of pressure to consent to things even if they would do harm to me. Even if he didn't ask anything of me that I couldn't handle, having it hanging over my head would be incredibly stressful, and leave me worried about what he was going to tell me to do next. I'm very glad that he doesn't see it that way, although so far, I haven't disobeyed him, haven't resisted much, and so it hasn't been a huge issue. It makes me feel that he's more confident and secure in his dominance over me, that a tiny bit of resistance on my part isn't enough to shake him, or us.

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