Doesn't anyone study history?

Doesn't anyone study history? (Full Version)

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JohnWarren -> Doesn't anyone study history? (10/5/2009 9:10:51 PM)
This is a rant. It's not a political rant or a "why are we there/should we be there rant." It's simply a rant of an old grunt seeing incredible stupidity. On tonight's news, I watched extensive coverage of an American unit in Nuristan taking heavy casualties in Afghanistan over the weekend. It was based in a VALLEY. Surrounded by MOUNTAINS. Without a secure route of withdrawal. During the latter, critical stages of the battle the Predator over-watch was discontinued. A year ago, I visited Fort Bragg after an absence of what is approaching a half century. I'll admit to being a bit awestruck and not a little jealous of the neat toys today's military has. It seems a bit odd to remember field stripping my carbine or zeroing the scope on my Springfield (YES, a Springfield). HALO in my day was a matter of a air-pressure altimeter and a wind-up stopwatch. Looking at GPS displays and radar altimeters and tactical computers was humbling. Now, I hear about a bunch of grunts stuck out in the middle of nowhere with what generally amounted to the gear I had at my disposal. Now, Afghanistan isn’t my combat area of expertise, but the kind of “squish when you take a step” terrain, where I fought, favored the indigenous defender. Deserts and mountains lack that kind of concealment and "noise." Just look at how someone shows up against cool rock through a thermal sight! Still that's no excuse to put admirably equipped troops (which these didn't seem to be) in the middle of a valley. Just looking at the computer-generated map scrolling across my TV screen, I could pick out five much more defensible positions on near-by military crests. Even Sargon the Great built his castle in Calah on a hill (and in THAT part of the world, hills are hard to come by) Valleys have been bad news ever since one hominid wacked another with a tree branch. It's no coincidence that the ancient writings speak of "Valley of Death." Hannibal barely got out of one after the Gauls gave him a nice lunch and directions and then ambushed him as he followed them. The French thought that Dien Bien Phu was a nice camping spot and Khe Sanh went from being a hilltop surrounded by higher hills to a Marine curse word thanks to "those above my pay grade." "Take the high ground" isn't just a neat slogan. Worse, Afghanistan isn’t a military unknown. Alexander the Great didn’t make it as far as Nuristan, but there are accounts in Greek about the problems with the area and the locals. British commanders such as General William Elphinstone and their accompanying journalists left chilling accounts of what combat in that area could be like. Also, I can hope that while the CIA was supplying anti-Soviet forces they were also taking extensive notes on the local’s strategy and tactics as well as precisely where the Rompin’, Stompin’ Red Army went wrong. We know a bit about how to win and a hell of a lot about how to lose in that part of the world. Let’s use it.

Termyn8or -> RE: Doesn't anyone study history? (10/5/2009 11:15:21 PM)
Simple, the death toll wasn't high enough to keep our interest away from what they are doing, which is to continue to steal the wealth of this country. It's really all a show for y'all to watch, even though it is real and makes real enemies. It is not real today. The attention span of the sheeple is very short, and without a body count and a dollar cost, you will not hold their attention for long unless you are a video game or a movie. Therefore these useless excursions are necessary. Yes, an oxymoron almost, but it applies. Oh, the title has a question ! OK here's the answer : Not the right people. Those who are supposedly leaders have not obviously, either that or they are incredibly greedy, shortsighted or stupid. Or all of the above. Wait, they might just be. Current evidence indicates that they have been since about the 1930s. That's when opium was around. Good thing I don't like that shit. We can sit here and debate this all day. Any one of us on this board is probably more qualified to run the country than those who do. To me that is a foregone conclusion, and it applies to those with different beliefs as well. These people probably can't even tie their own shoes. I mean this sounds like a joke but it is getting pretty damnear serious. We have SENATORS, not just congressmen, who would ask about the price of a bus ticket to Hawaii. Even if we showed up and put the fear of "God" into them and they did actually work for us, I don't think we can trust them because they are just too stupid. Now what the fuck do you do ? T

HatesParisHilton -> RE: Doesn't anyone study history? (10/5/2009 11:24:24 PM)
is history on my iPod? can I d'load it off iTunes? can I steal it from Rapidshare or TorrentWhore? does it have a BIG BEAT for my wankerous "earbud" earphones that don't affect my cockswaddle side-swept 20-something PSP bitchboy wannabe hipster follow-the-herd haircut? No? what the fuck does history have for me to like about it then?

ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: Doesn't anyone study history? (10/5/2009 11:42:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or We have SENATORS, not just congressmen, who would ask about the price of a bus ticket to Hawaii. ... Now what the fuck do you do ? Well... since you bring it up.... I say that for a lot of these senators and congressmembers, putting them on a bus for Hawaii is an absolutely outstanding idea. And make sure their seatbelts are tightly fastened.

Arpig -> RE: Doesn't anyone study history? (10/5/2009 11:52:08 PM)
No John, damned few have read their history it seems. The Afghans have made killing foreigners a national sport since at least 330 BCE (probably earlier than that, but I don't have the time or inclination to research that). Every invader managed to take it over quite quickly and easily...but holding the place was another story. And as for making a camp in a valley without holding the surrounding mountains, well you are right, that's just begging for trouble, and one would think that the military would know that, I mean they have those expensive academies...presumably to teach the brass how to fight and win a war, But that being said, I doubt that Afghanistan is winnable...the locals will go on happily killing the foreigners until the foreigners give up and leave...just ad they have always done.

sappatoti -> RE: Doesn't anyone study history? (10/6/2009 6:32:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JohnWarren ... On tonight's news, I watched extensive coverage of an American unit in Nuristan taking heavy casualties in Afghanistan over the weekend. It was based in a VALLEY. Surrounded by MOUNTAINS. Without a secure route of withdrawal. During the latter, critical stages of the battle the Predator over-watch was discontinued. ... ... We know a bit about how to win and a hell of a lot about how to lose in that part of the world. Let’s use it. This was exactly my thought when I listened to the news while preparing dinner last evening. It's one of those WTF? moments that I thought our leadership would have learned from all of the history of past military campaigns in that part of the world. I had, at least, assumed that defending the highest ground (particularly when we control the airspace) would be considered the obvious thing to do. I am baffled, angry, and saddened at the unnecessary loss of life with this ill conceived plan.

pahunkboy -> RE: Doesn't anyone study history? (10/6/2009 6:39:42 AM)
We are there for the drug trade. There is a bumper crop of opium. As to logistics and logic- no clue here.

DesFIP -> RE: Doesn't anyone study history? (10/6/2009 8:44:25 AM)
If you set up in a valley, then the people on the heights won't even need weapons. They can just roll rocks down at you. This is incredibly stupid.

LadyPact -> RE: Doesn't anyone study history? (10/6/2009 9:25:56 AM)
It's stuff like this which is EXACTLY why I don't watch the news. It drives family members nuts when this kind of stupidity is reported. It doesn't take a great strategist to figure out that the scenario described translates quickly into "sitting ducks". All I'm going to say here is I'm glad My boy is in the high ground and there are times February can't come soon enough. (Forgive My personal indulgence there, folks.)

IrishMist -> RE: Doesn't anyone study history? (10/6/2009 11:05:56 AM)
quote: All I'm going to say here is I'm glad My boy is in the high ground and there are times February can't come soon enough. I hear you on that one. I have two of them out there; no idea where though. About all I do know is that they are still alive. [&:][:o]

einstien5201 -> RE: Doesn't anyone study history? (10/6/2009 4:55:41 PM)
Personally, I think it's due to all the fancy new toys that things like this happen. We've got so much more advanced weaponry and technology than our current enemies that our commanders have gotten complacent. If you've got planes and rockets and infrared sights, what harm could some backwards ragtag army possibly cause you? /sarcasm.

TheHeretic -> RE: Doesn't anyone study history? (10/6/2009 9:10:56 PM)
And the latest news from the top is that we aren't going to be leaving. The ptb aren't done dawdling over just how we are going to stay, (computer modeling glitches, perhaps), but they are sure we aren't leaving.

LadyPact -> RE: Doesn't anyone study history? (10/6/2009 9:19:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: IrishMist quote: All I'm going to say here is I'm glad My boy is in the high ground and there are times February can't come soon enough. I hear you on that one. I have two of them out there; no idea where though. About all I do know is that they are still alive. [&:][:o] I know that's got to be a difficult position at times. Please take My best wishes for all of you.

Sanity -> RE: Doesn't anyone study history? (10/6/2009 9:28:55 PM)
Could the valley base be a shiny lure? What good is all the US militarys high tech weaponry without things to track and target.

LookieNoNookie -> RE: Doesn't anyone study history? (10/6/2009 9:37:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JohnWarren This is a rant. It's not a political rant or a "why are we there/should we be there rant." It's simply a rant of an old grunt seeing incredible stupidity. On tonight's news, I watched extensive coverage of an American unit in Nuristan taking heavy casualties in Afghanistan over the weekend. It was based in a VALLEY. Surrounded by MOUNTAINS. Without a secure route of withdrawal. During the latter, critical stages of the battle the Predator over-watch was discontinued. A year ago, I visited Fort Bragg after an absence of what is approaching a half century. I'll admit to being a bit awestruck and not a little jealous of the neat toys today's military has. It seems a bit odd to remember field stripping my carbine or zeroing the scope on my Springfield (YES, a Springfield). HALO in my day was a matter of a air-pressure altimeter and a wind-up stopwatch. Looking at GPS displays and radar altimeters and tactical computers was humbling. Now, I hear about a bunch of grunts stuck out in the middle of nowhere with what generally amounted to the gear I had at my disposal. Now, Afghanistan isn’t my combat area of expertise, but the kind of “squish when you take a step” terrain, where I fought, favored the indigenous defender. Deserts and mountains lack that kind of concealment and "noise." Just look at how someone shows up against cool rock through a thermal sight! Still that's no excuse to put admirably equipped troops (which these didn't seem to be) in the middle of a valley. Just looking at the computer-generated map scrolling across my TV screen, I could pick out five much more defensible positions on near-by military crests. Even Sargon the Great built his castle in Calah on a hill (and in THAT part of the world, hills are hard to come by) Valleys have been bad news ever since one hominid wacked another with a tree branch. It's no coincidence that the ancient writings speak of "Valley of Death." Hannibal barely got out of one after the Gauls gave him a nice lunch and directions and then ambushed him as he followed them. The French thought that Dien Bien Phu was a nice camping spot and Khe Sanh went from being a hilltop surrounded by higher hills to a Marine curse word thanks to "those above my pay grade." "Take the high ground" isn't just a neat slogan. Worse, Afghanistan isn’t a military unknown. Alexander the Great didn’t make it as far as Nuristan, but there are accounts in Greek about the problems with the area and the locals. British commanders such as General William Elphinstone and their accompanying journalists left chilling accounts of what combat in that area could be like. Also, I can hope that while the CIA was supplying anti-Soviet forces they were also taking extensive notes on the local’s strategy and tactics as well as precisely where the Rompin’, Stompin’ Red Army went wrong. We know a bit about how to win and a hell of a lot about how to lose in that part of the world. Let’s use it. (Sorry....I never studied history....I would be poorly versed to assist here).

HatesParisHilton -> RE: Doesn't anyone study history? (10/6/2009 10:24:24 PM)
History is written by winners, and like, I like, am like, a total WINNER, and blonde, and like, MTV which spawned via the Real World spawned all reality TV which like is all I like should care like about and like who like fucking cares about what I REFUSE to think like about like, and thus like so does like youtube and youliketubelike and like sao like there is no like history except like like what like like like we likeee likeee twatteee bitchee TARDO's can upload and like so on likeee likeee likeeee likeee Youliketube and swip for our Deafness like causing iPods.

Aneirin -> RE: Doesn't anyone study history? (10/7/2009 3:47:58 AM)
Yes, shiny new high tech weapons, and what better way to test them, but in places where troops would not think of being in before, in history. If the weapons do their stuff, great, but if they dont, well, yet another disaster, but people are cheap. Sometimes I wonder if modern war is just one big testing ground for weapons manufacturers. The Afghanistanis, well, they are a ferocious people, dyed in the blood fighters, and they fight well, they stuffed the Russians with all their hardware, are they repeating that action now with the Allied forces I wonder. So, why is the West there,is it oil, is it drugs, or is it the idea, the fighting of an idea. If it is the latter, the taliban being an ideaology, a doctrine, it will never be beaten, as when one dies, another takes their place, ad finitum. Now, narcotics, as Pahunk said, opium, yes, they are masters at growing it. Could it be even the west wishes for a new opium trade, it controls, but the opium being used for pharmaceutical purposes. What big commercial interests are in the world of today, Oil, weapons, pharmaceuticals, drugs, guns and fuel, that is where the money is, no wonder the west wants it.

DDraigeuraid -> RE: Doesn't anyone study history? (10/7/2009 9:21:37 AM)
Yes, John, I do know history. That history shows that the ONLY ones who conquered Afganistan, and that only for a few years, was Ghengis Kahn. How did he and his army accomplish that? They literally slaughterd EVERYONE in any town or city that opposed him. Every man, woman and child. He left their heads stacked in pyramids. In Herat, he killed over 150,000 after they surrendered. The United States is obviously not going to go to those extremes, nor am I advocating that. Just saying that this is unwinnable. The military knows their history, but the congress and senate do not, and neither does the president. Dragon

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