RE: proud to be a slave

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Musicmystery -> RE: proud to be a slave (9/28/2009 3:20:13 PM)
People are weird, and spend far too much time worrying about what each other do instead of themselves. I like slaves. A lot.

sunshinemiss -> RE: proud to be a slave (9/28/2009 7:23:43 PM)
Well here I am, being the naysayer... Here is why slaves are not respected in my world. When a person gives up their rights to make decisions, and gives that over to someone else, then the other person can make any manner of decision. For example... there is a gal that I know who is a slave. She's a lovely gal. She has been very kind to me, thoughtful, we've had some amazingly good conversations, and I like her wit and intellect. However, I know that she can make absolutely no promises to me. "I'll be there" or "Talk to you on Saturday" or even the unsaid enjoyment of the budding friendship, the expectation that it will continue to build - there is no certainty in it. If her master said, "don't ever talk to sunshine again," she would never talk to me. She would essentially disappear from my life. Would he do that? I don't know. But I do know that I live peripherally within the bounds of her slavery by choosing to maintain contact with her. Taking nothing for granted, I'm always surprised when I get a little message from her. I put no investment in the relationship because I recognize the format of their relationship and know without a doubt that her relationship with me is based completely on his willingness to allow it. I can't respect HER because within the context of their relationship, I am expendable based on HIS decision. Only by his good graces does she continue to interact with me. People don't respect slaves because there is nothing to hold onto within this type of context. The "hooks" are with the M-type in the relationship. The M-type makes the decision. YMMV. peace and passion, sunshine

abuddingdom -> RE: proud to be a slave (9/28/2009 10:27:32 PM)
People can say silly things when they're new to something. Hopefully they say less silly things as grow and they learn. Not always, though.......

porcelaine -> RE: proud to be a slave (9/28/2009 10:37:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss People don't respect slaves because there is nothing to hold onto within this type of context. The "hooks" are with the M-type in the relationship. The M-type makes the decision. perhaps that's a reflection of your friendship, but i cannot say i've ever experienced the same. speaking from the point of view where all my friends are kink oriented, we each respect the others lifestyle and decisions. neither infringe upon the friendship or the bond we've established prior to and after those relationships commenced. i'm sincerely sorry you can't say the same. porcelaine

sunshinemiss -> RE: proud to be a slave (9/29/2009 6:12:25 AM)
Hey there porcelaine, I used that example because it is an extreme example. And it is the only one in which I don't respect the gal. Other people want to be or be called slaves? Fine by me. That's cool. But I think we get caught up in words, in definitions and not in reality. Based on the OP, there is a knee jerk reaction based on a single word, without context. I've given a context. If this gal in my anecdote were permitted to make her own choices, to be able to decide who her friends would be, it'd be a whole different story. I could believe in her, her personal choices could be seen, her integrity could be maintained. Her decision to give ALL decisions to him means that there is nothing to believe in with her. In him, yes, in her, no. There is no way to respect what is essentially dust in the wind. And in the interest of the OP, here are my answers... Why is it that some feel that being a slave is a simple thing? Because in the end, it is. Easy, no. Simple, yes. The answer to everything is "as the M-type wishes". When a person is a slave, that person gives up all decisions, all choices. It is in fact one of the most amazingly beautiful things about slavery. The simplicity of it. Why is it that being a slave is not a respectful position? Answered previously Am I the only slave who feels proud of being a slave for the obvious reason? No, you are not. However, you brought up something someone else wrote, and you brought up respect. Respect from others is a COMPLETELY different thing than "being proud of being a slave". And then essentially you asked why NON-slave people would not respect a slave. There are very clear reasons for that. Some people value their freedom, their ability to choose, their personal authority to such a degree that it is inconceivable to them that another person would give up those things that they have perhaps even put their lives on the line to defend. I'm not saying that being a slave is bad or wrong or anything like that. I'm giving an explanation. Perhaps you didn't really want an explanation and that your questions were actually rhetorical and you wanted only to rant. Regardless, people have lots of reasons for lots of things. If you want to know why someone thinks the way they do, why didn't you write to the journal writer? Who knows? An honest, authentically open question about an explanation may have brought a fascinating conversation. peace and passion, sunshine

Acer49 -> RE: proud to be a slave (9/29/2009 4:00:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery People are weird, and spend far too much time worrying about what each other do instead of themselves. I like slaves. A lot. I will not say weird, just predictable

SaharahEve -> RE: proud to be a slave (9/29/2009 4:13:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elipsis quote: They are not making judgments about you, they are making judgments about themselves and their ideas of what "slave" is... to them. This. And to be fair there are people out there that want to be treated that way. There are also people out there that want someone like you... so it's just a matter of realizing that the term "slave" means something different to different people. Exactly. [:)]

Mercnbeth -> RE: proud to be a slave (9/29/2009 4:59:19 PM)
quote: If this gal in my anecdote were permitted to make her own choices, to be able to decide who her friends would be, it'd be a whole different story. sunshine, thanks for the insight. this slave has often wondered why she doesn't have a gaggle of girlfriends to dish with...and your explanation seems to sum it up quite nicely. [:)]

porcelaine -> RE: proud to be a slave (9/29/2009 6:05:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss Hey there porcelaine, I used that example because it is an extreme example. And it is the only one in which I don't respect the gal. Other people want to be or be called slaves? Fine by me. That's cool. But I think we get caught up in words, in definitions and not in reality. Based on the OP, there is a knee jerk reaction based on a single word, without context. I've given a context. If this gal in my anecdote were permitted to make her own choices, to be able to decide who her friends would be, it'd be a whole different story. I could believe in her, her personal choices could be seen, her integrity could be maintained. Her decision to give ALL decisions to him means that there is nothing to believe in with her. In him, yes, in her, no. There is no way to respect what is essentially dust in the wind. thank you for explaining. i've been fortunate that my friendships have not been an issue of concern but i readily recognize his right to control this area of my life if he wished to do so. nor would i be at liberty to balk if he did. i do agree that those things are surrendered and one's ability to pick and choose theoretically no longer exists. porcelaine

Andalusite -> RE: proud to be a slave (9/29/2009 8:44:46 PM)
beth, I've been very hesitant to "dish" with slaves who have this type of restriction, or anyone who is required to not have/keep any secrets from their partner, especially if I don't know their partner and have any direct trust toward him. Knowing that she'll pass on everything I say to her, I can't share anything deep or personal. In my personal relationship, my Master hasn't asked me to give him authority in this area. If he did, I feel it would damage my ability to maintain friendships and trust. I'm not sure that it's a limit per se, but I would be very concerned about surrendering this to him. He has expressed that it's not something he wishes to control, so that was part of what we agreed to when we became involved. Probably that makes me not a "twue" slave in some people's opinion. [;)] I don't claim to have "no limits," but we mostly have shared boundaries, in the area of permanent emotional or physical harm, illegal activities (other than physical S/M and bondage aspects), etc. He can make me do lots of things I don't like or don't want to do, vote the way he tells me to, do service-oriented things for himself or others, eat things I dislike (even if I complain a little), and so forth. I haven't promised 100% compliance or "no limits," since I'm not perfect, and have physical and emotional limitations that sometimes interfere, even if I don't want them to. gentlewhispers, I don't think anyone should be disrespectful toward you for your relationship dynamic or D/s or BDSM orientation. Nobody owes you "respect" that you haven't earned by your words and actions, though. It's not automatic, just like you don't get automatic trust or love. Courtesy is nice, but it's not something that should be demanded.

lally2 -> RE: proud to be a slave (9/30/2009 3:12:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss .Here is why slaves are not respected in my world. When a person gives up their rights to make decisions, and gives that over to someone else, then the other person can make any manner of decision. For example... there is a gal that I know who is a slave. She's a lovely gal. She has been very kind to me, thoughtful, we've had some amazingly good conversations, and I like her wit and intellect. However, I know that she can make absolutely no promises to me. "I'll be there" or "Talk to you on Saturday" or even the unsaid enjoyment of the budding friendship, the expectation that it will continue to build - there is no certainty in it. If her master said, "don't ever talk to sunshine again," she would never talk to me. She would essentially disappear from my life. Would he do that? I don't know. But I do know that I live peripherally within the bounds of her slavery by choosing to maintain contact with her. Taking nothing for granted, I'm always surprised when I get a little message from her. I put no investment in the relationship because I recognize the format of their relationship and know without a doubt that her relationship with me is based completely on his willingness to allow it. I can't respect HER because within the context of their relationship, I am expendable based on HIS decision. Only by his good graces does she continue to interact with me. People don't respect slaves because there is nothing to hold onto within this type of context. The "hooks" are with the M-type in the relationship. The M-type makes the decision. YMMV. peace and passion, sunshine wth all due respect and such, but youre basing an opinion of a whole group of people entirely on the fact that youre friendship with this other woman is made transient by her lifestyle choice. . it actually isnt just her Master who has made this choice, she made it too, when she hooked up with him. id suggest that instead of assuming indignation over this you accept and respect it or you may well lose her friendship through youre own prejudice and personal interest.

RCdc -> RE: proud to be a slave (9/30/2009 4:26:22 AM)
Hello sunshine. (I love saying that!) My question to you is, has it ever occured to you that she choose that? I can totally see how people can lose respect for another whom they feel has succumbed in a passive way and how they draw their concluesion from it. But it is her choice to start with. It is her decision to make in the beginning. And it is her trust that she has. Understandbly - you have not reach that level of trust wither with her, nor with her Master. But is that such a reason to not have respect for her? I am just curious - not meaning to come across as accusative - I can understand confusion, or even feeling let down in a sense... or a miriad of different feelings - but to not respect her does confuse me. Dearest beth mentioned she has come to an understanding why she doesn't have a gaggle of girlfriends to dish with from what you said. And I concur. I have noticed that it is a female thing. With Masters blessing, I have lots of male friends of all orientations. But females not so much and they often find it difficult to relate. I have always found a possesive streak in females - except those of slave orientation - that I have never come across in males. And a sense of injustice. This could be a key? the.dark. (.andneverunderstoodwhy.)

sunshinemiss -> RE: proud to be a slave (9/30/2009 7:28:27 AM)
Hey there dark lady, I absolutely one hundred percent respect her decision. If I didn't, I would be hounding her, judging her, giving her whatfor! It is BECAUSE I respect her decision that I don't and can't have a close friendship with her. She trusts him absolutely, with her whole heart. And that is a beautiful thing to see. I, however, do not trust him with my whole heart. The reality of the situation is that HE has absolute veto power about her friendships. Yes, at her choosing. I have no judgment around that. What is NOT cool with me is that he has absolute veto power over one of MY friendships. Now this may be splitting a hair, but it's an important one. I have NOT submitted to him, I have NOT given my choices up to him. Because I don't have a relationship with him, I'm not able to open myself more with her. I can't depend on her AT ALL. And I mean not at all, nothing. Every one of her choices is dictated by him in the end. How can I respect someone who is like that, who has no say so at all about anything? Someone who is so micromanaged? Perhaps this may say it better. Would you respect a "yes-man"? Would you respect his decisions, his perspective, his opinions if you knew that he was only the puppet of someone behind the curtain, that he was a person whose sole purpose was to agree with the puppeteer? When does yes mean "yes" and when does it mean "I'm saying yes because I'm required to."? How could you trust that man? How could you respect him? As time goes by, she becomes more and more mastered by him, and her way of thinking changes because she has chosen to let him rule her in this way. She becomes the puppet and he the puppeteer. How can I possibly know where she ends and he begins? She can not be respected except as an extension of him... because that is the reality of the relationship that they have chosen. I have no problem with her decision to live like that. You have said it yourself dark, "with Master's blessing". What if he took that away? What if he said "NO MORE"? It is one thing to be the one attached to the Master, it is quite another to be the person a step away. To be that friend, means I must trust and respect YOUR master, not just you. That's quite an expectation for a woman to apply to her friends. Rather a tall order, I'd say. Trust this guy because I say he's worthy of your trust. Sure, up to a point. So, big breath here, the depth of her slavery does not allow any room for respect of her. She made a decision to give everything to him. She would change in the blink of an eye at his direction, his choosing. THAT is why I can not respect her. There is no "her" there. There is only "his slave" there. It is a hard concept. It is not one that we really generally think about except, may I remind you that we often say that respect is earned. How can a slave, like the one I've been talking about, possibly earn respect? What could she do that would earn HER respect if she has no freedom to make a decision, no freedom whatsoever to create any integrity? How can she be trusted? Without trust, how then can she be respected? On a more personal note, thank you dear dark, for this very interesting conversation. I don't believe we've before had the opportunity to discuss something at this depth in the past. I've always appreciated your way of thinking, even when I didn't agree with it. peace and passion, sunshine

agirl -> RE: proud to be a slave (9/30/2009 9:00:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss It is a hard concept. It is not one that we really generally think about except, may I remind you that we often say that respect is earned. How can a slave, like the one I've been talking about, possibly earn respect? What could she do that would earn HER respect if she has no freedom to make a decision, no freedom whatsoever to create any integrity? How can she be trusted? Without trust, how then can she be respected? sunshine She can be respected for adhering to the principles of the relationship style she asked for. No? Isn't her intergrity measured by her adherence to that? You seem to want something from her that her situation can't allow. I can't, for the life of me me see what respect has to do with it. You can't trust her in the way that YOU want to trust , you can't have what YOU want from your interactions with her. You can't have what YOU want in the friendship, in the way you want it. You can't open up more to her. Those are the restrictions you place on yourself if you choose to have a a friendship with her , surely? Perhaps this may say it better. Would you respect a "yes-man"? Would you respect his decisions, his perspective, his opinions if you knew that he was only the puppet of someone behind the curtain, that he was a person whose sole purpose was to agree with the puppeteer? When does yes mean "yes" and when does it mean "I'm saying yes because I'm required to."? How could you trust that man? How could you respect him? You've drawn a distorted analogy here. Someone who's sole purpose is to agree? Not agreeing doesn't enter into it.......not being allowed to can do. Unless you're suggesting that she would say yes and not explain that it's actually a no. The reality of the situation is that HE has absolute veto power about her friendships. Yes, at her choosing. I have no judgment around that. What is NOT cool with me is that he has absolute veto power over one of MY friendships. Now this may be splitting a hair, but it's an important one. I have NOT submitted to him, I have NOT given my choices up to him. Because I don't have a relationship with him, I'm not able to open myself more with her. I can't depend on her AT ALL. And I mean not at all, nothing. Every one of her choices is dictated by him in the end. How can I respect someone who is like that, who has no say so at all about anything? Someone who is so micromanaged? You chose to have a friendship with someone who's in that type of situation. It's nothing to do with whether YOU submit to him, or giving YOUR choices up to him....... like it or not , you have a relationship with his slave........and HE comes first. I don't understand your lack of respect notion, where she's concerned. agirl

porcelaine -> RE: proud to be a slave (9/30/2009 9:18:00 AM)
sunshine, i'm uncertain of the level of sharing that you do with her. but i have been told that slavery is a difficult thing to witness from the outside. i believe in some degree slaves are conditioned in a manner and accept the roller coaster of emotions that can occur more readily than those that don't live within the same confines. most recently i had a discussion with someone close to me. she was concerned because i was upset about something. the limitations i have in regard to how i approach a dilemma aren't always to my liking but i accept them. on the other hand she was frustrated because someone she cared for was not in the best spirits and the normal recourse of resolution was not possible. she pointedly told me that she could never do this. i took no offense at all, because as her guide i already knew it wasn't her path. however, it provided insight into the realities of what it means to yield in this manner. most choose to see the pretty parts instead. where her outlook differs from yours is that she's staunchly committed to me and the bond we share. regardless of whether i'm in captivity or free that doesn't waver. nor do the restrictions such relations might bring cause her to waver or see me differently. in her eyes i am far greater because i'm willing to give and surrender in a manner that many will not. in our case it is because of my slavery and the person i am overall that her respect has grown, not diminished. porcelaine

Mercnbeth -> RE: proud to be a slave (9/30/2009 9:37:23 AM)
quote: beth, I've been very hesitant to "dish" with slaves who have this type of restriction, or anyone who is required to not have/keep any secrets from their partner, especially if I don't know their partner and have any direct trust toward him. Knowing that she'll pass on everything I say to her, I can't share anything deep or personal... Andalusite, thank you for sharing your perspective. it has been this slave's experience that one's contracted MD, retained Attorney and/or personal religious clergy are the only folks that earn the sort of trust to keep personal confessions completely confidential. this slave doesn't expect anyone else to. this slave has had a couple of experiences with other slaves who wanted to share secrets with her that started with the caveat of "Don't tell your Master, but..." because they didn't want this slave's Master to tell theirs what they were hiding from them. that's a position this slave would rather not be in, so it works out best for all of us that we just don't have that level of friendship. the other thing is, this slave really isn't into being secretive and has shared deep personal stuff with many folks, even strangers here on CM and other venues, so it really isn't that big of a deal...for her...for folks to know her deep, personal stuff...which makes it difficult to relate to folks who have an appreciation for folks who hold it back. again, thanks for sharing your thoughts.[:)]

Andalusite -> RE: proud to be a slave (10/1/2009 8:18:30 AM)
beth, I think it came across much more strongly than I intended! I can be friends with slaves, or with people who will not keep confidences for other reasons, but it usually isn't as close or as deep as if I don't need to censor myself. It also depends a lot on circumstances - I tend to share things about my relationship and inclinations here far more freely than I do with most of my vanilla friends. A couple of them are openminded and we do talk occasionally. Of course, I might misjudge someone, but I tend to be a little slow to trust in that specific area, so I share things that don't matter as much at first, pay attention to how they treat other people (if they gossip or share others' secrets to me, they'll probably do it about me). I have some very close friends who I will go out of my way for, to help, and who will do that for me.

Acer49 -> RE: proud to be a slave (10/1/2009 10:46:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss Well here I am, being the naysayer... Here is why slaves are not respected in my world. When a person gives up their rights to make decisions, and gives that over to someone else, then the other person can make any manner of decision. For example... there is a gal that I know who is a slave. She's a lovely gal. She has been very kind to me, thoughtful, we've had some amazingly good conversations, and I like her wit and intellect. However, I know that she can make absolutely no promises to me. "I'll be there" or "Talk to you on Saturday" or even the unsaid enjoyment of the budding friendship, the expectation that it will continue to build - there is no certainty in it. If her master said, "don't ever talk to sunshine again," she would never talk to me. She would essentially disappear from my life. Would he do that? I don't know. But I do know that I live peripherally within the bounds of her slavery by choosing to maintain contact with her. Taking nothing for granted, I'm always surprised when I get a little message from her. I put no investment in the relationship because I recognize the format of their relationship and know without a doubt that her relationship with me is based completely on his willingness to allow it. I can't respect HER because within the context of their relationship, I am expendable based on HIS decision. Only by his good graces does she continue to interact with me. People don't respect slaves because there is nothing to hold onto within this type of context. The "hooks" are with the M-type in the relationship. The M-type makes the decision. YMMV. peace and passion, sunshine As a Master of a slave I could deny your relationship, but why would I? Just because I have a slave, does not mean I want to turn her into some mindless door mat. Slaves who can't think for themselves are of no value to me.

Andalusite -> RE: proud to be a slave (10/1/2009 7:05:49 PM)
Err, that should be "slaves who are required to not have secrets/share anything anyone tells them," not slaves in general.

proudsub -> RE: proud to be a slave (10/2/2009 12:00:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: gentlewhispers Maybe this is more of a rant than a question. I am not sure how to put it. I just got done reading a profile of a switch who viewed mine. I read her journal. In it she references a slave as being something low. That if some one was to serve her that it would make them LESS than a slave. It infuriates me when I see that. I am a slave. I am proud of being a slave. I think it takes great strength...both physical and mental, control, desire, willpower, etc to be a slave. To be a good slave. I am not claiming at all to be perfect or to be the top of the food chain. What bothers me is when people refer to being a slave as a bad thing. That slaves are dirt. I totally respect all the responsibilites that a Master takes on with owning. Why is it that some feel that being a slave is a simple thing? Why is it that being a slave is not a respectful position? May some of you share your views on this please? Am I the only slave who feels proud of being a slave for the obvious reason? Thank you in advance for you opinions. I identify as more of a sub than slave, but i think my name says it well--i am very proud.[:)]

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