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The Science of Sub Drop - 9/10/2009 8:34:49 AM

MagiksSlave

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Okay, I am sure this has been done here before, in fact I’m pretty sure I may have started a similar thread a few years back, but I neither remember it nor feel like digging it up, and fresh responses are always nice.

That being said here are my thoughts and questions...

Sub drop is that particularly nasty depressed feeling a sub (usually but it can happen to them domly doms after a particularly intense play session as well) get after play. The play, especially that which includes pain and or orgasm, releases endorphins in the brain boosting those feel good emotions which is a phase commonly referred to as sub space (or Dom space depending on your inclinations) that floaty feeling you get in the midst of play that lasts sometimes hours after play ends.

However, as soon as those extra endorphins ware off and you are left at your normal level, things go a little wonky, at least for some people. After having the elevated levels normal levels dont feel quite right for a while, thus leading to sadness and often depression. This can last for varied amounts of time.

An extra added bonus for those who are bi-polar or suffer regularly from depression (and this is actually a very large percentage of the population both Vanilla and kinky) the entire thing can be even worse. Those who are bipolar may suffer greater swings that take days to stabilize and those who suffer regular depression may fall into one especially if you dont take medication for it (not all people need to really.)

I have always been one to suffer sub drop that usually onsets mid day or so the next day after extreme play, my worst case of sub drop took weeks for my Domly one to help me out of. It was a very unpleasant fortnight! (It is unusual for me to suffer such bad sub drop for so long but there were extenuating circumstances.)

My question is, if sub drop is based on chemicals in the brain then is there really anything we can do to prevent it or mitigate its effect on us. Do you think taking something like St Johns wart or Valerian after play might help? I have never really experimented but my scientific mind is curious about others experiences and what they have found that has worked and what they have found that has not worked.

Thank you,

Magik

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.

-Rodney Atkins-

Post #: 1

RE: The Science of Sub Drop - 9/10/2009 10:29:30 AM

UKEvolutionary

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Joined: 11/20/2006
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Oh geez !!! another one !!! see http://www.collarchat.com/m_2744947/tm.htm

(in reply to MagiksSlave)

Post #: 2

RE: The Science of Sub Drop - 9/10/2009 11:24:48 AM

MagiksSlave

Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: UKEvolutionary

Oh geez !!! another one !!! see http://www.collarchat.com/m_2744947/tm.htm

yeah I know

but like I said I wanst going back to find ones I may have missed in my long absence or ones I may have written years ago. So dont be mean!!!

< Message edited by MagiksSlave -- 9/10/2009 11:26:23 AM >

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.

-Rodney Atkins-

(in reply to UKEvolutionary)

Post #: 3

RE: The Science of Sub Drop - 9/10/2009 12:34:21 PM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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I find that the same stuff suggested for aftercare should be part of precare. Meaning you should be properly hydrated, not start out with less than optimum water levels. Same for food and sleep. If you do it beforehand you'll need less afterwards.

We won't even play these days if either of us had a bad night's sleep. It just isn't worth it. Neither is getting up and going straight into heavy play without having breakfast.

_____________________________

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(in reply to MagiksSlave)

Post #: 4

RE: The Science of Sub Drop - 9/10/2009 12:52:34 PM

SilentSpark

Posts: 36
Joined: 8/16/2009
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Speaking from personal experience, I think different people have different reaction with the chemicals. For me, I had experienced 2 sub drops and both of them happened after I had intense adrenaline scenes (fear related scenes). And I found that having the dom you played with by your side or at least show support will help a lot.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 5

RE: The Science of Sub Drop - 9/10/2009 1:15:36 PM

VirginPotty

Posts: 11624
Joined: 7/16/2008
From: Virginville
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Lol, OP I missed this thread when I posted my "Has BDSM become soft" thread just minutes ago.

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Post #: 6

RE: The Science of Sub Drop - 9/10/2009 3:38:59 PM

MagiksSlave

Posts: 2768
Joined: 9/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: VirginPotty

Lol, OP I missed this thread when I posted my "Has BDSM become soft" thread just minutes ago.

Eh, it happens LOL!

Magik

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.

-Rodney Atkins-

(in reply to VirginPotty)

Post #: 7

RE: The Science of Sub Drop - 9/11/2009 4:43:02 AM

aldompdx

Posts: 538
Joined: 10/24/2004
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The end justifies the means. The body enters shock in order to survive. It is normal to feel lousy after trauma.

If you don't like the hangover, don't drink the booze. If you can't handle a cold turkey, don't shoot the bird.

Grow beyond the ultimate question -- How can I stay addicted without suffering the consequences?

(in reply to MagiksSlave)

Post #: 8

RE: The Science of Sub Drop - 9/11/2009 5:00:33 AM

porcelaine

Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

My question is, if sub drop is based on chemicals in the brain then is there really anything we can do to prevent it or mitigate its effect on us. Do you think taking something like St Johns wart or Valerian after play might help? I have never really experimented but my scientific mind is curious about others experiences and what they have found that has worked and what they have found that has not worked.

the effectiveness of the supplement is through its continued use. it isn't like tylenol where you pop a pill and bam things are better. i'd suggest you speak with your doctor to make sure there wouldn't be any conflicts in the medication you're already taken (assuming such) for your condition. if you're interested in chinese medicine check your local area for a school of acupuncture if the treatment isn't covered by insurance. they usually provide low to no cost services in their clinics.

in the meantime, consider trying medicinal herbal teas that would provide the calming effect you're seeking. there are various manufacturers. if you have a trader joe's near check there. they carry yogi tea and similar products at a discount. also try meditation. it really does work wonders. guided audio programs are typically more user friendly than books.

porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to MagiksSlave)

Post #: 9

RE: The Science of Sub Drop - 9/15/2009 1:32:54 AM

LPslittleclip

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the main brain chemical involved is seritonin. it may be that you have a imbalance of this one and some re uptake inhibitors may help. consult with your MD to see what works for you

(in reply to porcelaine)

Post #: 10

RE: The Science of Sub Drop - 9/15/2009 4:09:30 AM

UKEvolutionary

Posts: 60
Joined: 11/20/2006
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Sorry to be a smart ass LPslittleclip, but your information is incorrect !!

( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin_syndrome#Signs_and_symptoms )
Serotonin is a neurotransmitter involved in multiple states including aggression, pain, sleep, appetite, anxiety, depression, migraine, and vomiting. In humans the effects of serotonin excess were first noted in 1960 in patients receiving a monoamine oxidase inhibitor (MAOI) and tryptophan.[6] The syndrome is caused by increased serotonin in the central nervous system.[1] It was originally suspected that agonism of 5-HT1A receptors in central grey nuclei and the medulla was responsible for the development of the syndrome.[7] Further study has determined that overstimulation of primarily the 5-HT2A receptors appears to contribute substantially to the condition.[7] The 5-HT1A receptor may still contribute through a pharmacodynamic interaction in which increased synaptic concentrations of a serotonin agonist saturate all receptor subtypes.[1] Additionally, noradrenergic CNS hyperactivity may play a role as CNS norepinephrine concentrations are increased in serotonin syndrome and levels appear to correlate with the clinical outcome. Other neurotransmitters may also play a role; NMDA receptor antagonists and GABA have been suggested as affecting the development of the syndrome.[1] Serotonin toxicity is more pronounced following supra-therapeutic doses and overdoses, and they merge in a continuum with the toxic effects of overdose.[8][9]

It is also found in anti-depressants but only to REPLACE a lack of serotonin.
( http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Seritonin )
serotonin reuptake inhibitors, selective (SSRI),
n.pl. a class of antidepressant drugs such as fluoxetine, sertraline, paroxetine, or voxamine.

And considering your bold statement of ONE "endorphin" being the "cause", I suggest you "research" more as there are a known 20 types of Endorphin. See http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=55001

As "most" endorphins are produced in the pituitary gland, serotonin has links to the brain but is mostly produced in the gut !!!

( http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/serotonin )
serotonin
[ser′ətō′nin, sir′-]
Etymology: L, serum + Gk, tonos, tone
a naturally occurring derivative of tryptophan found in platelets and in cells of the brain and the intestine. Serotonin is released from platelets on damage to the blood vessel walls. It acts as a potent vasoconstrictor. Serotonin in intestinal tissue stimulates the smooth muscle to contract. In the central nervous system, it acts as a neurotransmitter. Lysergic acid diethylamide interferes with the action of serotonin in the brain. The normal concentration of serotonin in the urine is 0.05 to 0.2 μg/mL. Also called 5-hydroxytryptamine.

As I said in an earlier post ......... subspace and subdrop is a passionate subject of Mine and I DON'T know it all yet, but "statements" like you posted without substance, just doesn't help My research. Especially when it's incorrect !!
I may have "judged" your comment wrongly so I am "eager" to hear for your justification to say "the main brain chemical involved is seritonin." Even though you spelt it wrongly !!

(in reply to LPslittleclip)

Post #: 11

RE: The Science of Sub Drop - 9/15/2009 1:15:07 PM

Senseislilgirl

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Joined: 12/6/2008
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Actually you are all right in one way or another. The only incorrect post is the one above. All chemicals are produced in the brain, not the gut. All chemicals in the brain are elivated through a response system.

The sub space and the sub drop are chemical highs and lows, and there is very little you can do to prevent both unless you are on mood stabilizers. The same medications that control such chemicals. In order to understand the chemicals, addictions, and the affects, do not rely on Wikipedia.

I am speaking from school knowledge. I have spent the last year learning about the brain, chemicals in the brain, reactions, and so forth.

Proper balance of water will keep the submissive from dehydrating, retaining water, swelling from the sights that are hit, and it will keep them from passing out.

Proper intake of food will allow the submissive to enjoy the session without a severe sugar level drop, and it will allow the person to have strength.

Proper sleep is the same as food. It will keep the submissive in a more healthful state of mind, focused, strong, and attentive.

A Dominant has the responsibility to make sure that a submissive is cool, somewhat comfortable, and safe during a session. There are techniques that can match the 'PEOPLE' in the session that can lessen the affects of play.

There are sensation play techniques that can soften the drop. View the sessions like a workout.. There is the warm-up phase, the intense phase, and then the cool down phase, and then the resupply phase.

During play a submissive should always have water by them, they must remain relatively cool, and they must never feel as if they are in danger. There is always going to be an ounce of 'fear' or anticipitation, but we all go through that.

During the session the Dominant needs to guide the submissive to REMAIN in the mind set that you two have set forth, and then afterwards is the aftercare.

I am not too sure why they call it aftercare when you do it before, during AND after and then again when the drop hits.

If you truly want to know the science of subspace and subdrop Take Psychology. Behavioral Science, and the Brain, Mind, and the Body all together Now course.

(in reply to UKEvolutionary)

Post #: 12

RE: The Science of Sub Drop - 9/15/2009 2:58:34 PM

aldompdx

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Joined: 10/24/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Senseislilgirl
All chemicals are produced in the brain, not the gut.

Perhaps you may want to review where the adrenal glands are located.

Generally good comments, nonetheless.

< Message edited by aldompdx -- 9/15/2009 3:00:19 PM >

(in reply to Senseislilgirl)

Post #: 13

RE: The Science of Sub Drop - 9/15/2009 3:14:57 PM

Senseislilgirl

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Yes, there are glands in the gut, but it is all controlled by the BRAIN. That is why when is brain dead everything begins to shut down. The hypothalamus is the controller of the sexual drive and chemicals, and eating trends the desire to eat or not to eat. The Corpus Collasum controls emotions, communications between both hemispheres, and reaction or relay of said reaction.

The frontal left lobe controls the chemicals that help with sensory, memory, and retrieving stored information, and receptors.

When it comes to sexual desires, needs, addictions, and pleasure the hypothalamus plays a major role. In fact, allow me to spend another week in my Human Sexuality class, and I can answer this a lot further for you. The glands throughout your body is ultimately controlled by the brain, breathing controlled by the brain, and even desires are controlled by the brain.

Sub drop and the act of subspace is controlled by the same endorphines that allows people to become addicted to drugs. It's that high that gets them, that utopia feeling.

(in reply to aldompdx)

Post #: 14

RE: The Science of Sub Drop - 9/15/2009 3:15:51 PM

angelikaJ

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FR
Not all neurotransmitters are endorphins.

The neurotransmitters do have various effects on the nervous system, all over the body.
I have read that dopamine, norepinephrine, serotonin as well as oxytocin and the endorphin system are involved.

Too, at least for me, I believe some of what goes on is that before play I tend to have a lot of left brain chatter (as understood from Jill Bolte Taylor's description here)and after play there is much less of that and I have to adjust to the quiet.

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(in reply to aldompdx)

Post #: 15

RE: The Science of Sub Drop - 9/15/2009 4:02:36 PM

aldompdx

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Joined: 10/24/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Senseislilgirl
but it is all controlled by the BRAIN.

Now the context has been shifted from "produced in" to "controlled by."

Consider the metaphor of a computer. A computer acts in accordance with its software, which follows the rules established by its hardware. Likewise, the "hardware" of the human brain may exist alone, but the brain does not function without its "software." The chain of causality begins not from the brain as grey matter, but from its instantaneous state of synaptic configuration. (See, A. Damasio, The Making of Consciousness...). That is an ephemeral temporality, which is quite distinguishable from the matter raised by UKEvolutionary.

The science upon which you rely is most certainly correct. However, there is a difference between a chemical "produced in" a gland, and the degree to which that production is "controlled by" the neurological state of one's brain.

(in reply to Senseislilgirl)

Post #: 16

RE: The Science of Sub Drop - 9/16/2009 7:26:11 AM

UKEvolutionary

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Impressive knowledge from Senseislilgirl with regards to the Brain, and I yield to that knowledge in part ! As aldompdx said, Adrenalin isn't "produced" in the Brain, It's produced in the Suprarenal glands that "sit" upon each kidney. Now a neurotransmitter may be required to activate the production of adrenaline, but ultimately it is the Adrenaline that effects the body and not necessarily the neurotransmitter, What I was trying to say is that the overproduction of ONE endorphin isn't necessarily the cause of subspace as per the post I was replying to.
Nevertheless, thank you again, for your impressive knowledge.

(in reply to aldompdx)

Post #: 17

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