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RE: Taking over as her Dom - 7/31/2009 10:54:40 AM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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Wow, I've really struggled with a reply to this because, at least to me, you've gotten quite a few things garbled. This is my 4th entire rewrite of this and I think I'll opt for short statements. Feel free to ask additional clarifying questions if you wish.

Leadership: I think your example of each of you pleasing the other is great. Also the concept of making it fun. I don't always express pleasure with her. I am used to setting the standard, insisting on compliance, and rewarding excellence. But this isn't my job, it should be the opposite of work. A good relationship is worth working for, but the end result shouldn't be an occupation.
I agree. But the sad truth is that good leadership is good leadership. There are no short cuts.

I am not sure I agree with your definition of "non-consensual" though.
I was joking on that part.

She has expressed a desire for total power exchange. I realize that safety, success in her career and studies, and compliance with the law make this impossible,
Huh? why would any of that be impossible? It's what Carol & I do day in and day out.

but I don't feel that it's sincere or beneficial in any way if she can turn it off when she gets scared (and this ties in with my feelings on limits below). Sure, there should be boundaries, but she shouldn't be the one to set them. If she knows and controls the limits then all she needs to do is take one step beyond the length of my chain whenever she is afraid or confused, and this always makes things worse.
Carol may say "no" any time she wishes. That is the definition of "consent". If she does so, it is permanently the end of her being my slave. There is no "disobey" -> "get punished" -> "obey" loop in our relationship.

But again, I'm not sure if I disagree with you. I am looking for a better way to establish limits and make her feel safe.
WOW... ok. My impression is that your not seeing "limits" very clearly. How about instead of the buzzword "limits", we simply say "Various concerns, issues, fears, insecurities, and areas where trust or respect is lacking." Neither you nor she "set" them. They just exist. The question is who is going to take care of them? You make her feel "safe" by taking care of that bundle of stuff well. Push the limits of your knowledge and ability and/or her trust and respect at your own peril. I opted for going carefully rather than throwing away a decade long marriage due to haste.

Are there things beside limits and safe words that people use for cases like this?
What, exactly, is the problem you are attempting to address with these "limits" and "safewords"? Carol's safe word is "Get the hell away from me you skeevy bastard!" *chuckles*. Near as I know, you only need a safeword within the context fo a scene and then only if you are doing scenes wherein "no" is a reasonable part of the scene (rape scenes for instance). In that instance, you need a "real no" as opposed to a fake one. Otherwise, "no" should work just fine.

I think what most confused me in all this NBC is that none of this stuff is even an issue in my marriage. We are just two people exploring how deep the rabbit hole goes... together. Carol LIKES being my slave and she isn't trying to "get out of it" in any way. So we just progress down the path and when we run into some pothole we deal with it together. Just like ANY good leadership, I established a clear vision & mission statement, got her buy-in, demonstrated gradually that what I had promised for her would really work out, and earned the respect and trust I now have rather than demanded it -- Leadership 101. Just like any leadership, doing a good job up front solves a TON of problems down the road.

Two parting thoughts:
No sane leader issues a command he is certain will not be obeyed.
The best Master's Manual I've ever seen (should be familiar to you)

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Taking over as her Dom - 7/31/2009 12:00:42 PM

janiebelle

Posts: 332
Joined: 4/29/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NBCNCO
I also have a thought about limits, based on what I learned training new recruits. Young people can have a hard time finding their limits because their fear prevents them from testing them. Fear of failure, of embarrassment, of physical discomfort or pain, or of a real but controllable danger. I want her to trust that I am there with her, watching her and keeping her safe, and that she needs to let go of that fear to see what she can really accomplish. She has a -big- problem with fear of failure, whether it's driving a stick, doing pushups, or enduring a really good spanking. I think I am better off setting the limits for her sake, at least for now. Maybe when she has some actual experience in these areas she can be better equipped to set the limits.

I am speaking, of course, from the perspective of the woman in this case, and the standard disclaimers apply (everyone's thing is different, your mileage may vary, etc). The best thing she can know, and that you can make clear, is that she can't fail you as long as she gives an honest, 100% effort. If she understands that you wish for her to expand her abilities, that all you require is that she give just that tiny bit more than last time, she will be encouraged to do just that, instead of giving up thinking something is impossible, (or even worse, thinking that she cannot please you).

And once she has some experience in these areas, or any area, you will then both be "on the same page", having both come to the same concept of limit through your guidance and mutual effort. You indicate she desires a total power exchange. If you decide that this is indeed a workable dynamic, then the whole "when she has some actual experience in these areas she can be better equipped to set the limits" becomes a whole different aspect of this discussion. So consider carefully before you commit to taking on a TPE responsibility.

j

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RE: Taking over as her Dom - 7/31/2009 12:57:43 PM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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OK, rewrite #5... I thought of this version too late to edit the above. I thought I'd try t specifically answer your question... "Is there a better way than limits?" I think the answer is yes and I call it "teamwork and discussion"

Let's start out with the fact that Carol and I have never had a contract or any specific discussion about limits and boundaries. In general, it is my opinion that having long discussions about all the ways in which two people can fail to please each other is counter-productive to any relationship type... vanilla, D/s, or other. The sole nature of our unwritten contract is, "She obeys me absolutely until she chooses not to at which point she is permanently not my slave anymore. In return, I agreed to be me."

As a secondary point, let's remember that a "limit" is just the verbalized expression of some sort of inner trouble... insufficient trust, insufficient respect, childhood trauma, personal preferences, yada yada. Nobody "sets" them, they are just there. The only question really is who's doing the care and feeding thereof. For Carol and I, they are mine to manage. But that is a far cry from saying they don't exist. Especially in the beginning and even after a full decade of being happily married, there were LOTS of places where she had insufficient trust and/or respect to just obey.

Now, to answer your specific question, when these issues have come up in our M/s relationship, they've been addressed in two differrent ways. Early in our relationship I was still required to earn trust and respect. The box on the org chart is worth the paper it's printed on. So they went down like this...

Me: How about you give me your addiction.
Her: OMG That's scary!
Me: OK, how about for just 2 months then we can re-evaluate?
Her: Let me think about it.
Me: OK
Her: (later on) OK, let's give it a go.

There was about a year of this sort of thing... maybe 9 months. But, at some point I had actually earned my box on the org chart. Then the discussions went more like this...

Me: You know that if you are mine, then so is your art.
Her: <deer in headlights look>
Me: OK mine. Name your fear. What exactly is it that you think ME, the guy who loves you, is going to do that is awful?
Her: <ponders for a moment> Nothing I guess.

problem solved. That is the "more productive" way (at least to us) that we deal with this thing called "limits". It's not very master/slavey. At no point do I use the word "bitch" in a sentence *chuckles*. But it gets the job done for us.

In general, I've told Carol to respond to my command in such situations in the following format:

"Yes Master, but there are these things you ought to know..."

in this way, she is right away indicating that she has no intention of abdicating her role as my slave -- obedience is unquestioned Yet at the same time she is alerting me to the fact that there's a pothole in the road ahead of US and as the designated driver, I need to be aware of it.

In my opinion, there ain't no such thing as easy money and leadership positions are something you earn, not something that is given to you -- even in the military. Sure, upper command can give you the slot on the org chart, but only fools think that that is enough to actually "lead someone through the gates of hell".

Whether all of this is "TPE" or not is up to the reader. But the facts on the ground are that now, at the 2 year mark, if I ask Carol to do something, she does it. She does it whether or not it's scary. Neither of us has any conception that there is someplace that might be "out of bounds." Neither of us has any interest in finding that place even assuming it existed. When I asked her about doing karoake she just about died right there in front of me but her response was, "Well, I guess I wouldn't have any choice if you told me to do it..." Given that we all know that she DOES have a choice, I think that statement speaks for itself.

oh yeah, and everything that janiebelle said above me.

PS: I still think my first post on this thread is the most accurate... you seem to be doing just fine.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

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RE: Taking over as her Dom - 8/8/2009 4:45:07 PM

sabis

Posts: 136
Joined: 6/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527] What I didn't get is that when the dog and the dog trainer do their tricks together, the dog isn't feeling all put upon. Rather, it is pleased that it can be smart and do the right thing for it's pack. The dog and dog trainer are a team.

Yes.

This.

In His service,

~sabis
Owned by Cumulus

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