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Kim Petras - gender reassigned at 16! - 7/14/2009 6:34:09 AM   
LadyEllen


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The youngest person (apparently) to go through gender reassignment surgery (16), Kim started hormone treatment at age 12.

http://images.google.com/images?q=Kim+Petras&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7SUNA_en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=IYhcStihF9mOjAfB24HfDQ&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4

Now guys - be honest, if you met her would you be more worried she was underage or that she had the same XY chromosomes as you.........!?

E

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RE: Kim Petras - gender reassigned at 16! - 7/14/2009 6:44:30 AM   
beargonewild


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I don't know but my instincts are saying the 16 is still too young for gender reassignment surgery. 

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RE: Kim Petras - gender reassigned at 16! - 7/14/2009 6:46:31 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

I don't know but my instincts are saying the 16 is still too young for gender reassignment surgery. 
i totally agree


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RE: Kim Petras - gender reassigned at 16! - 7/14/2009 6:47:53 AM   
LadyEllen


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Maybe, but Kim is from Germany (ie no daft place) and the clinicians said they had never come across such a clear cut case.

E

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RE: Kim Petras - gender reassigned at 16! - 7/14/2009 7:29:04 AM   
pixidustpet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Maybe, but Kim is from Germany (ie no daft place) and the clinicians said they had never come across such a clear cut case.

E


the fact that its a clear cut case?  ok, no issue.

*my* issue with it (as a parent) would be that at age 16, you arent finished growing yet.  give the body a chance to fully mature (while taking hormone therapy, fine) and THEN change the genitals.  i'd be worried if the body hadnt fully finished the normal growth spurts and how would the newly shaped genetalia survive the changes.

not to mention....16.  i cant get my own imp that age to clean up his dishes much less try to remember all the things necessary to take care of a post surgical wound that is going to take months of care, dilations, etc.

kitten

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RE: Kim Petras - gender reassigned at 16! - 7/14/2009 7:38:15 AM   
LaTigresse


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As a parent I would be open to learning every single thing I could about it, weighing ALL the risks, pro's and con's. Then I would make an informed decision that I felt was in the best interest of the child long term.

I know very little about the medical aspects, the potential side effects, what the pro's and con's would be at beginning at that age versus older. Those are the things I would weigh against the mental desire and wellbeing.

I've always wanted what was best for my child, for their happiness and well being. Not what I would like, but what they need for themself. What is best for them to have a fullfilling life. Obviously this girl knew and if I was her parent I would hope to god I would be able to support her in the way she needed. Whatever that entailed. And to be able to balance it with helping guide her through the things that would have potential for harm.


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RE: Kim Petras - gender reassigned at 16! - 7/14/2009 7:50:45 AM   
pixidustpet


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LaT, i'm dealing with an imp (the same age as this young woman) who told me in the last few days that he's not only bisexual, but that he's still grieving for his friend, who was killed in a car accident.  leaving his young wife behind.  *headdesk*  cant that boy pick an EASY way of life?

i agree.  support your child's happiness, dont make home a battleground because life OUTSIDE the doors is gonna be hard enough.  the clinical medical aspect of it would be my concern, not that the young person needed those changes emotionally.  *that* for me, would be the easiest bit of it to understand.

(and my boy is dealing ok.  there wasnt any secrets involved in the relationship, and the young wife is grieving but handling things ok.  i just wish he'd not had to deal with it alone most of the year...his father isnt someone who can handle that sort of thing.  at all.)

kitten

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RE: Kim Petras - gender reassigned at 16! - 7/14/2009 8:03:16 AM   
LaTigresse


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Pixie, I am sorry I forgot to hit reply to the OP, or put "using fast reply...."

I was replying to the general topic, not your post.

I hope the best for your son, those are difficult years in the best circumstances. Toss a few bumps in their road and they can really struggle. I remember when my kids were going through their teens and all the agony and drama. I am glad those years are over.


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RE: Kim Petras - gender reassigned at 16! - 7/14/2009 8:05:28 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pixidustpet

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Maybe, but Kim is from Germany (ie no daft place) and the clinicians said they had never come across such a clear cut case.

E


the fact that its a clear cut case?  ok, no issue.

*my* issue with it (as a parent) would be that at age 16, you arent finished growing yet.  give the body a chance to fully mature (while taking hormone therapy, fine) and THEN change the genitals.  i'd be worried if the body hadnt fully finished the normal growth spurts and how would the newly shaped genetalia survive the changes.

not to mention....16.  i cant get my own imp that age to clean up his dishes much less try to remember all the things necessary to take care of a post surgical wound that is going to take months of care, dilations, etc.

kitten
i am confused here. Did the gender reassignment actually take place, or just hormone therapy thus far?


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RE: Kim Petras - gender reassigned at 16! - 7/14/2009 8:06:37 AM   
angelikaJ


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pixidustpet

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Maybe, but Kim is from Germany (ie no daft place) and the clinicians said they had never come across such a clear cut case.

E


the fact that its a clear cut case?  ok, no issue.

*my* issue with it (as a parent) would be that at age 16, you arent finished growing yet.  give the body a chance to fully mature (while taking hormone therapy, fine) and THEN change the genitals.  i'd be worried if the body hadnt fully finished the normal growth spurts and how would the newly shaped genetalia survive the changes.

kitten


I read an article that suggested the opposite might be true.
That younger bodies handle the changes better.

"Gender reassignment for younger people has been promoted recently by physicians in the Netherlands as being more successful than cases in which the candidate must wait until late in adolescence, when the body’s physical form is harder to reshape and bring into line with a transgendered person’s idea of him or herself."


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RE: Kim Petras - gender reassigned at 16! - 7/14/2009 8:15:09 AM   
beargonewild


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

As a parent I would be open to learning every single thing I could about it, weighing ALL the risks, pro's and con's. Then I would make an informed decision that I felt was in the best interest of the child long term.

I know very little about the medical aspects, the potential side effects, what the pro's and con's would be at beginning at that age versus older. Those are the things I would weigh against the mental desire and wellbeing.

I've always wanted what was best for my child, for their happiness and well being. Not what I would like, but what they need for themself. What is best for them to have a fullfilling life. Obviously this girl knew and if I was her parent I would hope to god I would be able to support her in the way she needed. Whatever that entailed. And to be able to balance it with helping guide her through the things that would have potential for harm.



Thanks LaT...you managed to write what makes me feel uneasy about a 16 year old undergoing reassignment surgery. I also admit that I am quite in the dark about the after effects, if any, on a person who's body is still going through hormonal changes as a teenager. From my own understanding, Germany's medical community is quite advanced so my concern doesn't lie there. I also presume that she has more than satisfied all the requirements before being allowed to have the surgery.


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RE: Kim Petras - gender reassigned at 16! - 7/14/2009 8:19:11 AM   
SmokeSerpent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ
I read an article that suggested the opposite might be true.
That younger bodies handle the changes better.

"Gender reassignment for younger people has been promoted recently by physicians in the Netherlands as being more successful than cases in which the candidate must wait until late in adolescence, when the body’s physical form is harder to reshape and bring into line with a transgendered person’s idea of him or herself."


Came here to say this.^

Obviously there is a concern about making sure someone actually will benefit from what they say/think they need, but as much as people are casting this procedure as being an irreversible change that Kim might be making before she's mature enough to be sure... forcing her to go through male puberty before she is allowed to choose is a largely irreversible change as well. The path Kim, her parents, and doctors have chosen is allowing her to have a much better alignment between her internal and external gender than most transgendered people can hope for.

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RE: Kim Petras - gender reassigned at 16! - 7/14/2009 8:21:57 AM   
beargonewild


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pixidustpet

LaT, i'm dealing with an imp (the same age as this young woman) who told me in the last few days that he's not only bisexual, but that he's still grieving for his friend, who was killed in a car accident.  leaving his young wife behind.  *headdesk*  cant that boy pick an EASY way of life?



Sadly that option of us picking an easy way of life, especially regarding our sexual orientation, is not an option we have. I still recall when I was that age and the countless times I wished I was just like everyone else and had an interest in the opposite gender! Even as a middle aged adult, I do still wonder though overall, if there was a way to change me to being hetero, I don't believe I would take that offer. Yes it is a tough path to walk yet that path has made me who I am today.


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RE: Kim Petras - gender reassigned at 16! - 7/14/2009 9:48:12 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

Now guys - be honest, if you met her would you be more worried she was underage or that she had the same XY chromosomes as you.........!?
Not underage in Canada

Now enough of the gutter talk, and on to what has become the topic. I think that each case of proposed gender reassignment needs to be evaluated individually on its own merits. I do not think the surgery should be available on demand, nmor do i think it should be limited as to the age of the person (within reason). By age 16 most (note I said most, not all) people have gone through puberty and are for all biological purposes adults, so I don't think 16 is too young. In fact I think it would likely be a better time, as the patient doesn't have to go through her remaining adolesance trying to deal with her issues.


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RE: Kim Petras - gender reassigned at 16! - 7/14/2009 11:53:52 AM   
CallaFirestormBW


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I have to concur with anjelika, Smoke and Arpig. It seems to me that forcing a young person who already is certain of hir orientation to go through puberty and start adult life in a body that just doesn't fit, simply because of an arbitrary age limit seems inappropriate to me, both psychologically and medically.

Young people have better resiliency, they don't have years of hormonal involvement in the body processes to reverse, and they have the opportunity to start their adult life in the gender that they orient as. Kids have surgery all the time... and go through complex medical procedures that require a great deal of diligence. Everything from diabetes to cancer to sports injuries require particular diligent care from the patient, and kids have been dealing with those kinds of situations for years. Both child and parents would have the opportunity to -prepare-, which is an advantage that illness and accident -don't- provide, and yet kids, sometimes with parents' help and sometimes not, IME, still manage to follow medical care, in general, at least as well as their adult counterparts.

In terms of growth, this person had already been on hormones since 12, so the 'normal' hormones of adolescence had already been 'adjusted' since the onset of puberty, so this would, presumably, be a non-issue. I would think that, if gender were going to be re-assigned, that it would be easier if secondary sexual characteristics and growth patterns of the old gender were minimized and the secondary characteristics of the new gender were allowed to predominate. If this meant that a MtF youth would stop growing, instead of spurting up to adult male height, it seems that it would make it -easier-, rather than more difficult, for the MtF to fit into the new gender. In the same way, the changes in bone structure that occur in puberty in a female would have a better chance of leaving the youngster with a more gender-typical shape if hormone changes took place earlier in puberty, so it seems like it would be better to go ahead, provided that evaluations showed clear gender dysphoria.

If one of my 'apples' were in this position, I would hope that I would be a strong enough person and a loving enough parent to help my child and hir doctor(s) figure out the best possible way to get hir through the process. If that meant waiting, then we'd wait and I'd do my best to help hir deal with coming into sexual adulthood in a body that didn't fit... if it meant going ahead with surgery, I would do everything I could to help hir to recover and learn and accomplish the responsibilities of hir new body, but, in my mind, arbitrary age limits should not be the defining factor of when and how to resolve a recognized case of gender dysphoria.

Dame Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 7/14/2009 11:54:42 AM >


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RE: Kim Petras - gender reassigned at 16! - 7/14/2009 1:51:43 PM   
calamitysandra


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Having seen some documentaries about Kim, her life, and her development over the years, I have absolutely no problems with the operation being made available for her. In fact, I was very impressed with the smart, strong, and confident way she handled her difficulties. Her parents too left me impressed. Under circumstances that must have been far from easy, they stood by their child. Helping and guiding where and when it was necessary, and loving, accepting, and supporting from the start,

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RE: Kim Petras - gender reassigned at 16! - 7/14/2009 2:39:29 PM   
kiwisub12


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If the medical community thought it appropriate to start hormone therapy for this girl at 12, then there was very little doubt in their minds that he should be a she.
And for the record, starting female hormones before the body is influenced by male hormones would make for a more feminine body, with less plastic surgery needed later - brow reduction , adams apple shaving and so on.  And apparently , judging by her photos, it worked very well.

I would have hated to have been her parents though. To make a decision of that magnitude would have been horrendous, even if the rational was obvious.

edited to add  - i know a transgender that would have loved to have had the support, surgery and care at 16 that this girl obviously has. He is in his 40's and is only just now able to afford to start the process - and he has spent 30-odd years hiding this side of him.   And yes, it is still hard for me to think of him as a her, since i have known him before he opened up about it. Working on it, working on it.

< Message edited by kiwisub12 -- 7/14/2009 2:42:50 PM >

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RE: Kim Petras - gender reassigned at 16! - 7/14/2009 2:46:26 PM   
Loki45


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This isn't the first case like this I've seen. I saw in the news here a story about a person born a boy, but always into pink, dollies and such growing up. The parents allowed the kid to do what they felt they should and in the article, when you looked at the pics, there was no doubt. You were like "That's not a boy, that's a girl." And you're impressed the parents had the wisdom to stick by their loved one like that when not every one would.

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RE: Kim Petras - gender reassigned at 16! - 7/14/2009 3:40:27 PM   
beargonewild


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

I have to concur with anjelika, Smoke and Arpig. It seems to me that forcing a young person who already is certain of hir orientation to go through puberty and start adult life in a body that just doesn't fit, simply because of an arbitrary age limit seems inappropriate to me, both psychologically and medically.

Young people have better resiliency, they don't have years of hormonal involvement in the body processes to reverse, and they have the opportunity to start their adult life in the gender that they orient as. Kids have surgery all the time... and go through complex medical procedures that require a great deal of diligence. Everything from diabetes to cancer to sports injuries require particular diligent care from the patient, and kids have been dealing with those kinds of situations for years. Both child and parents would have the opportunity to -prepare-, which is an advantage that illness and accident -don't- provide, and yet kids, sometimes with parents' help and sometimes not, IME, still manage to follow medical care, in general, at least as well as their adult counterparts.

In terms of growth, this person had already been on hormones since 12, so the 'normal' hormones of adolescence had already been 'adjusted' since the onset of puberty, so this would, presumably, be a non-issue. I would think that, if gender were going to be re-assigned, that it would be easier if secondary sexual characteristics and growth patterns of the old gender were minimized and the secondary characteristics of the new gender were allowed to predominate. If this meant that a MtF youth would stop growing, instead of spurting up to adult male height, it seems that it would make it -easier-, rather than more difficult, for the MtF to fit into the new gender. In the same way, the changes in bone structure that occur in puberty in a female would have a better chance of leaving the youngster with a more gender-typical shape if hormone changes took place earlier in puberty, so it seems like it would be better to go ahead, provided that evaluations showed clear gender dysphoria.

If one of my 'apples' were in this position, I would hope that I would be a strong enough person and a loving enough parent to help my child and hir doctor(s) figure out the best possible way to get hir through the process. If that meant waiting, then we'd wait and I'd do my best to help hir deal with coming into sexual adulthood in a body that didn't fit... if it meant going ahead with surgery, I would do everything I could to help hir to recover and learn and accomplish the responsibilities of hir new body, but, in my mind, arbitrary age limits should not be the defining factor of when and how to resolve a recognized case of gender dysphoria.

Dame Calla


Thank you for clearing this up for me.


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RE: Kim Petras - gender reassigned at 16! - 7/14/2009 3:51:14 PM   
angelikaJ


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From the Edge article:
"..."Transsexuals experience the onset of puberty, and the physical changes it brings, as a serious trauma. ...
Imagine a man that suddenly starts growing breasts or a woman that starts growing a beard against their will--that is how Kim and people like her experience puberty.

"They are not freaks, nor do they suffer mental illness," Wuesthof went on. "They are simply trapped in the wrong bodies. ..."
Sr. Achim Wuesthof (who treated her at a Hamburg clinic)


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